free will is BS

[manitou]

I sometimes wonder if there aren't entirely different life scenarios being enacted around us that we can't see. Like we're inhabiting this planet along with others, only we have different sensory organs and don't get in each other's way. Especially given the fact that linear time is illusory an the potential is here for combinations of past, present and future all at once.

[Marblehead]

Manitou, you've been thinking too much again.

[manitou]

Guilty as charged. It won't stop, lol.

[三江源]

I sometimes wonder if there aren't entirely different life scenarios being enacted around us that we can't see. Like we're inhabiting this planet along with others, only we have different sensory organs and don't get in each other's way. Especially given the fact that linear time is illusory an the potential is here for combinations of past, present and future all at once.

I assumed this as a child. That there were multilayers happening simultaneous to the one I could see.

 

I only left the idea once it was contradicted by a seemingly certain adult. heh. adults...

[Marblehead]

Guilty as charged. It won't stop, lol.

Hehehe. That's fine. No problem. Just as long as we keep contact with our physical world and not try to fly too often.

[Vmarco]

Hehehe. Well, Mr. Hawking has gotten things wrong before. Don't know, to my recall, Hartle so I can't speak to him. Yes, all those folks who like string theory want to discard what other physicists have established. As soon as they actually present a theory and construct that I can accept I might start listening to them a little more.

 

And BTW, I do exist and so does my chair. I'm not sure about you and your chair though.

 

Yes,...I appear, through my senses, to exist,...until I view myself through a microscope,...at first, my solid form is reduced to electrons,...but as I microfy the view,...even the electrons don't exist.

 

Yes,...while dreaming at night, I appear to exist,...until I wake up.

 

Lao Tzu said, "Recognize that eveything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth."

 

“All that I have tried to understand to the present time has been affected by my senses; now I know these senses are deceivers, and it is prudent to be distrustful after one has been deceived once.” René Descartes

[Marblehead]

Lao Tzu didn't say that! Hehehe.

 

And Descarte finally said, "Screw it! I exist, therefore I think."

 

But I do agree with you in that when we start inspecting anything, breaking it down into its various parts we no longer have the totality of what it is we are looking at. We have lost its true essence.

 

The more we take something apart the less real it appears to be. Leave it alone! Admire it for what it is, in its true nature.

[三江源]

Hehehe. That's fine. No problem. Just as long as we keep contact with our physical world and not try to fly too often.

or...... fly as much as you like.

[Republic Of Zen]

"In the West, people often look down upon such magic as manipulative"

Most people dont believe in magic.

"people are often willing to use love magic to find or return a lover as well"

Not true at all.

"We are all taught what to believe, what is right and wrong, from when we are little. "

I have no memory of being taught what is right or wrong as a child.

"What takes place when we use pusanga is not a direct change in other people, but a change in ourselves."

Placebo effect. Not magic.

This OP has nothing to do with free will.

I experience choice, hence believe in free will.

[Marblehead]

I experience choice, hence believe in free will.

Indeed, as long as we can recognize that we have choices in life, we have free will. Can't see your choices? You have no free will.

[三江源]

Indeed, as long as we can recognize that we have choices in life, we have free will. Can't see your choices? You have no free will.

even if you cant see something, doesnt mean it isnt there.. it just means you cant see it.

[silent thunder]

When relaxed in the now, the experience of being, it's like I can feel the current of a river.

When relaxed, being in presence, sensing this flow, my choices are so clear, they aren't really choices.

When not thinking about how it should be, or could be, the natural way is so obvious.

A great wide path. Following it is effortless.

I don't make a lot of choices,

unless I'm resisting

conditions.

[Marblehead]

even if you cant see something, doesnt mean it isnt there.. it just means you cant see it.

I don't deny that, and never have. But if we do not apply logic and reasoning to our thinking we can imagine all sorts of strange and non-existant things out there in the dark. Just because it gets dark outside doesn't mean that there is some evil monster lurking around looking for people they can eat.

 

And just because there was something in the sky that I couldn't identify doesn't mean it was an alien craft from some other solar system reconning Earth and getting ready to invade. It just means I couldn't indentify what I saw. Maybe it was just a bit of dust on my eye.

[三江源]

I don't deny that, and never have. But if we do not apply logic and reasoning to our thinking we can imagine all sorts of strange and non-existant things out there in the dark. Just because it gets dark outside doesn't mean that there is some evil monster lurking around looking for people they can eat.

 

And just because there was something in the sky that I couldn't identify doesn't mean it was an alien craft from some other solar system reconning Earth and getting ready to invade. It just means I couldn't indentify what I saw. Maybe it was just a bit of dust on my eye.

you are right, people do cling to logic and reason because they are afraid of their imaginations.

 

Fear of imagination is a mote in the eye, for sure.

[Marblehead]

you are right, people do cling to logic and reason because they are afraid of their imaginations.

 

Fear of imagination is a mote in the eye, for sure.

You are beyond all hope. Hehehe. But at least I won't have to concern myself with things that don't exist. Real life gives me plenty excitement, thank you.

[thelerner]

When relaxed in the now, the experience of being, it's like I can feel the current of a river.

When relaxed, being in presence, sensing this flow, my choices are so clear, they aren't really choices.

When not thinking about how it should be, or could be, the natural way is so obvious.

A great wide path. Following it is effortless.

I don't make a lot of choices,

unless I'm resisting

conditions.

Very cool. No yes, no no. Cutting to the solution of the question without philosophy, using real world repeatable experience. Excellent.

[Stosh]

When relaxed in the now, the experience of being, it's like I can feel the current of a river.

When relaxed, being in presence, sensing this flow, my choices are so clear, they aren't really choices.

When not thinking about how it should be, or could be, the natural way is so obvious.

A great wide path. Following it is effortless.

I don't make a lot of choices,

unless I'm resisting

conditions.

That reminds me,

I have to take a whiz

 

 

[Vmarco]

When relaxed in the now, the experience of being, it's like I can feel the current of a river.

When relaxed, being in presence, sensing this flow, my choices are so clear, they aren't really choices.

When not thinking about how it should be, or could be, the natural way is so obvious.

 

 

If you are sensing or thinking,...I guarantee, you are not in the Present, the Now, or Instant.

 

There is no energy, thus no flow, in the Present. There is no Present in time. If you are in time, you are not in the Present.

 

Honestly,...attempt to sense or think that you are in the Present,...if you're honest enough, you will realize how impossible it is.

 

 

Unfortunately...."Human kind cannot bear very much reality" T. S. Eliot

Edited June 7, 2013 by Vmarco

[Marblehead]

Honestly,...attempt to sense or think that you are in the Present,...if you're honest enough, you will realize how impossible it is.

Being in the "Present" isn't impossible but berry, berry difficult. And I agree with you that if you are conscious of it happening while it is happening then it really isn't happening at all.

[silent thunder]

If you are sensing or thinking,...I guarantee, you are not in the Present, the Now, or Instant.

 

There is no energy, thus no flow, in the Present. There is no Present in time. If you are in time, you are not in the Present.

 

Honestly,...attempt to sense or think that you are in the Present,...if you're honest enough, you will realize how impossible it is.

 

 

Unfortunately...."Human kind cannot bear very much reality" T. S. Eliot

Ok

[manitou]

Indeed, as long as we can recognize that we have choices in life, we have free will. Can't see your choices? You have no free will.

 

Okay, Mr. Marbles. I'm gonna get all thinkey on your a**.

 

We don't have free will - we are all the same entity. The entity thinks and manifests itself but it has to express itself in this particular sense through these darn filters we call a human brain and a human mouth.. We just think we think. After the internal channels have been cleared, the thinking gets straighter without having to go through all the contortions of character disorders. The manifestation is at the center of everything; we are its method of communication with itself, its 'idea' being expressed. Whatever the heck that idea is. Probably ultimate love, I would guess.

 

And I think that VMarco had his finger on it when he posted above about the seeming reality of an object - but under further examination the particles get further and further apart, until at last we have nothing but Thought. Thought. That's all we are, anything is. One big honkin' idea.

[manitou]

If you are sensing or thinking,...I guarantee, you are not in the Present, the Now, or Instant.

 

There is no energy, thus no flow, in the Present. There is no Present in time. If you are in time, you are not in the Present.

 

Honestly,...attempt to sense or think that you are in the Present,...if you're honest enough, you will realize how impossible it is.

 

 

Unfortunately...."Human kind cannot bear very much reality" T. S. Eliot

 

 

I see what you're saying here. Basically, unless you're in a state of meditation and your mind is free of all thought, we are not in the moment. To be truly in the moment is to be in bliss. But sometimes that involves senses too, I think. Driving down the road yesterday morning in this Ohio springtime, seeing all the robins, smelling the trees, feeling the sun on my face. This was total absorption of senses; yet, just for a moment it all came together and tears formed in my eyes and I felt absolute bliss. Maybe there is a way to be totally in the present (as Nature has a habit of doing to us when it displays its incredible beauty) and it involves complete immersion and comingling of the senses? Just guessing here.

 

when you said 'when you are in time, you are not in the present. This reminds me of a visual metaphor I see in my mind's eye. An inner tube with a bubble on it, like a weak spot. The big inner tube is eternity, the Now, represented by the air inside, moving around the inside of the tube very slowly. But in the little bubble on the weak spot the air has to move around the inside of the bubble in a fast fashion to keep pace with the slower pace of the air within the rest of the inner tube. Linear time is represented by the inside of the small bubble, and it's this little world of distorted air that we're in. Until we're not.

 

Of course the flaw in this metaphor is that 'eternity' or 'now' wouldn't be moving at all, theoretically. but it works for the metaphor.

Edited June 8, 2013 by manitou

[Vmarco]

Being in the "Present" isn't impossible but berry, berry difficult. And I agree with you that if you are conscious of it happening while it is happening then it really isn't happening at all.

 

No,...there is consciousness in the Present,...but a consciousness beyond the lower 6. We all have this consciousness,...this 7th and 8th consciousness,...but for most, that level of consciousness is obscured by the senses and thinking. Remember,...Buddha walked around for some 40 years at a level of consciousness beyond the 6 senses (seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting, touching, and thinking).

[Vmarco]

I see what you're saying here. Basically, unless you're in a state of meditation and your mind is free of all thought, we are not in the moment. To be truly in the moment is to be in bliss.

 

No,...(you're going to hate this)...the threshold of being Present is Non-Meditation.

 

"The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life." - Wei Wu Wei

 

Lao Tzu said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

"The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." Jigme Lingpa

 

"We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you uncover Source." Esther Hicks

[silent thunder]

No,...(you're going to hate this)...the threshold of being Present is Non-Meditation.

 

"The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life." - Wei Wu Wei

 

Lao Tzu said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

"The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." Jigme Lingpa

 

"We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you uncover Source." Esther Hicks

 

That sits comfortably on a very deep level.