A perfect wuwei act

[mYTHmAKER]

I think Ill probably be the only bum with this view

but Ill say it anyway

Helping the bears is not a wu wei act

Ill explain

A long time ago It was explained to me what

was meant by keeping to the flow of ones nature

(I have forgotten the reference but I can look for it)

What would be unnatural ,would be for a man to act like a horse

That a man would do something self destructive would also

be unnatural

 

To stop minding ones business and interfere with the bears fate

involves him-her in stuff that was potentially dangerous

it also means that he-her was still very immersed in

satisfying an ego that wanted back patting

They wanted to tell themselves they were "good"

and so they are keeping themselves compelled

to do stuff that they could have freed themselves of

responsibility for.

 

They are still looking at the world with pre-conceptions

that there is good and evil, in this case they

have decided to see bears as good, but they have no idea

whether one of those bears will mangle someones child or not.

And since bears eat things , they have done disservice

to all the things those bears will be able to eat.

 

If wu wei is a path to sageliness, or if it embodies

sageliness then the behavior it would be promoting

would not be furthering attatchments

would not be perpetuating "good and evil"

it would not be directing folks to take senseless risks.

 

Instead it would be promoting and understanding that

things live and die , the cycles go on, that there is

no ultimate perspective to judge good and bad from.

It suggests you make take actions like to keep yourself

warm and fed , and that you can care for family and work

but you do not have to do ill considered things to

satisfy ego expectations.

 

Stosh

 

What would you consider an act where one person rescues another person.

Do we know if the person rescued will run someone over with their car in the future.

Should we help others or just let them be.

My definition would be acting appropriately in any given situation.

Separation of man and nature is in the mind of man.

[Taomeow]

people are part of nature (in spite of the best attempts to divorce themselves from it!)

 

when a person helps a bear, that is nature, that is acting in accord with nature, that is letting nature do its thing. Because they were motivated to help the bear, they did. So in that way it is wu wei.

 

its not like the myth of modern culture which has nature over here and people on the other side, somehow above nature or seperate. no way. So a person can do a doing, and that doing can be wu wei. The naturalness of the doing and the factors like timeliness that taomeow mentioned have more to do with wu wei than whether or not someone is just sitting there watching the moss grow, afraid to take action because it might be somehow seperate from nature... nonsense!

 

Exactly!

 

One thing to keep in mind is that compassion is not unnatural... I feel funny even having to put this in bolds but some of the contributions compel me to... When a view of wuwei (or anything else for that matter) somehow leaves it out of the equation, well... we do concoct some robotic values or other to abide by instead.

 

Compassion is not orderly, not predictable, not looking over its shoulder to see if it's breaking any rules. It can break all the rules and still triumph over everything else. It is a "disorderly" kind of wuwei -- it can afford to be because it embodies wuwei, not merely follows it. If it wasn't so, human life could never exist. A human child is born completely helpless, completely unable to take care of itself. Taking care of a newborn baby is a helluva lot of work that will never happen "all by itself" in a billion years. Mother has to do it, see?.. Because she is modeled on tao (unless she's fucked up and doesn't do it, or doesn't do it right because it wasn't done right for her when she herself was a helpless infant and so that's the only thing she knows -- how to fuck things up that are helpless and dependent and in need of her work of nurturing.)

 

Compassionate action is wuwei for a normal, undamaged human being. Rationalizing its withholding is not. Even though we are trained to turn a deaf ear and a blind eye to situations we encounter daily where we would act compassionately naturally if we weren't so deprived of compassion ourselves, so used and numbed out to this state of affairs, that behaving like "real humans" has to be "figured out" instead of happening spontaneously. Much like one's immune cells don't have to ask anyone's permission to kill -- but compromise the whole organism if they fail to, or fail to do it in a timely fashion, letting death in instead of "intervening." Wuwei lets life in, is what it is. And the method it uses is timely, energy-efficient, and compassionate. Meaning, it does not do mindless killing or mindless sparing of life. It's spontaneously mindful, though a modern human may have a hard time wrapping her mind around the concept.

[ChiDragon]

hmmmmmm............

 

Compassion...!!!

I wonder did somebody has compassion for the little cubs not to be go on hunger. Hence, somebody left the bin open for them to look for foods.

[The Observer]

Exactly!

 

One thing to keep in mind is that compassion is not unnatural... I feel funny even having to put this in bolds but some of the contributions compel me to... When a view of wuwei (or anything else for that matter) somehow leaves it out of the equation, well... we do concoct some robotic values or other to abide by instead.

 

Compassion is not orderly, not predictable, not looking over its shoulder to see if it's breaking any rules. It can break all the rules and still triumph over everything else. It is a "disorderly" kind of wuwei -- it can afford to be because it embodies wuwei, not merely follows it. If it wasn't so, human life could never exist. A human child is born completely helpless, completely unable to take care of itself. Taking care of a newborn baby is a helluva lot of work that will never happen "all by itself" in a billion years. Mother has to do it, see?.. Because she is modeled on tao (unless she's fucked up and doesn't do it, or doesn't do it right because it wasn't done right for her when she herself was a helpless infant and so that's the only thing she knows -- how to fuck things up that are helpless and dependent and in need of her work of nurturing.)

 

Compassionate action is wuwei for a normal, undamaged human being. Rationalizing its withholding is not. Even though we are trained to turn a deaf ear and a blind eye to situations we encounter daily where we would act compassionately naturally if we weren't so deprived of compassion ourselves, so used and numbed out to this state of affairs, that behaving like "real humans" has to be "figured out" instead of happening spontaneously. Much like one's immune cells don't have to ask anyone's permission to kill -- but compromise the whole organism if they fail to, or fail to do it in a timely fashion, letting death in instead of "intervening." Wuwei lets life in, is what it is. And the method it uses is timely, energy-efficient, and compassionate. Meaning, it does not do mindless killing or mindless sparing of life. It's spontaneously mindful, though a modern human may have a hard time wrapping her mind around the concept.

 

Great post, as always Taomeow (I'm a sparse poster and a longtime lurker).

[Marblehead]

hmmmmmm............

 

Compassion...!!!

I wonder did somebody has compassion for the little cubs not to be go on hunger. Hence, somebody left the bin open for them to look for foods.

NO, they were just too freakin' lazy to close the doors after putting trash in the dumpster.

[joeblast]

hmmmmmm............

 

Compassion...!!!

I wonder did somebody has compassion for the little cubs not to be go on hunger. Hence, somebody left the bin open for them to look for foods.

Usually bins like that where the are bears around, they have high walls and no side access for the very reason to keep the bears out - they tend to make a huge mess of things otherwise. The bears didnt belong in there in the first place, and had human-measures proved effective, the bears wouldnt have been in there.

 

We also dont know the context - what if that were my plot of land, I put that dumpster there, and discovered that without my acting I would have two dead bear cubs in there?

 

Look at how easy it was for the humans to come to the rescue. It would have taken a rather dispassionate person to close their ears and eyes and sentence two cubs.

[Ya Mu]

And not even only that! Disharmony is a great power. The sage uses it when she must. In this she learns from the tao whose way to come into manifestation is by upsetting the balance. Tao-in-stillness is completely harmonious. Yet she doesn't stay in this state, because stasis is not the Way. You have to upset the balance before you grasp what balance IS.

 

Actually, wuwei is impossible to grasp on the level of the left brain language-dependent cognition. Take zhi, for example. Zhi does not operate through verbal concepts at all. (In fact, no shen does except for Hun, and Hun is one fifth of the human capacity to act wuwei. One needs to master the totality for anything to be wuwei, not just the surface.) Zhi is the innermost power behind our actions, and within its will is a drive toward fulfilling destiny. This task is not dependent on one-at-a-time linear actions or nonactions. It is dependent on grasping the whole picture, and informed by the developmental history of your whole ancestral tree and, wider, the whole ancestral tree of humanity and, wider, the whole genealogical "tree of life" of the world, the stars and suns and planets, energies and meanings, tao itself. The acts arising from grasping THIS picture can't be properly evaluated in a linear fashion. Zhi may introduce local disharmony because it sees that the outcome down the line is harmony on a larger scale. The real harmony whose aspect is disharmony. A sage intervenes or does not intervene toward this "bigger picture" because she can "see" it where others can only see a linear sequence -- do this, don't do that, B will follow from A, therefore I must or mustn't do A.

 

Another peculiarity of wuwei is its intimate union with time. What is timely is always wuwei. What is not timely is never wuwei. So one has to learn to be aware of the timeliness/untimeliness of one's action or nonaction first.

 

Another aspect of wuwei is energy expenditures. One could say that whatever takes the path of the least expenditure toward maximum result is the wuwei path. And, conversely, anything that grabs, greedily, too much energy toward a result that does not require this much is not wuwei. Many taoist arts utilize this principle, and of course internal martial arts and real (non-forcing and non-slacking) alchemical work.

+++ Good post. Many of the posters in this thread should read this twice and the sentence below 100 times...

"wuwei is impossible to grasp on the level of the left brain language-dependent cognition"

[Basher]

"doing nothing" or

"not interfering in any way" or

"just allowing whatever happens to happen"

 

By LaoTze's definition in the Tao Te Ching....

Wu Wei is "let Nature take its course."

 

......

 

 

So, what we can do to "just allowing whatever happens to happen". That would be having someone to call the proper authority to rescue them in a safe manner.

 

 

Here in the UK we've been beaten over the head with various "Health & Safety" Regulations & our formerly respected Police, Fire & Ambulance service have all had their hands tied up with Red Tape.

 

So much so that recently Policemen weren't allowed to try & rescue a man found floating face down in a pond that was only about 2 foot deep. As they didn't have the correct "diving" equipment and hadn't gone on a course teaching them how to safely drag somebody out of the water !!!

 

Eye witnesses said that the chap had just gone to the waters edge & fainted a couple of minutes earlier. But the senior Police officer there threatened to report any junior Officer that entered the water to effect a rescue !!! He then made sure that his Officers were kept busy stopping members of the public trying to wade into the Pond to drag the guy out !!!

 

Eventually some Paramedics arrived, the guy was pulled out and guess what ? He'd drowned !!!!

 

Moral of the Story : If you ever see one of these Health & Safety types drowning... leave them there and let nature take its course. It'll make the World a better & safer place !!! Perfect Wu Wei.

 

 

 

Basher

[Marblehead]

Here in the UK ...

We're not that far behind you here in the US.

[ChiDragon]

1. Usually bins like that where the are bears around, they have high walls and no side access for the very reason to keep the bears out - they tend to make a huge mess of things otherwise. The bears didnt belong in there in the first place, and had human-measures proved effective, the bears wouldnt have been in there.

 

2. We also dont know the context - what if that were my plot of land, I put that dumpster there, and discovered that without my acting I would have two dead bear cubs in there?

 

3. Look at how easy it was for the humans to come to the rescue. It would have taken a rather dispassionate person to close their ears and eyes and sentence two cubs.

 

1. The problem now, there are bears inside the bin. How did they get in was not the question but they are inside the bin now.

 

2. Nobody tells you not to act, but Just do it the proper way to guarantee their safety.

 

3. Yes, they did a good thing.

 

 

Note: The discussion, here, was straightly based on a philosophical view of Wu Wei in an analytical manner. What it actually means and how to handle it in different situations. If anyone wish to leave yourself outside the definition of Wu Wei for your argument, then you are the winner.

[ChiDragon]

Moral of the Story : If you ever see one of these Health & Safety types drowning... leave them there and let nature take its course. It'll make the World a better & safer place !!! Perfect Wu Wei.

 

Basher

 

Letting someone drown was not "let nature take its course". Again the definition of Wu Wei is:

"Take no abusive action to interfere with Nature to cause harm."

 

In your case, the police took some action to cause harm to Nature by letting the guy drown. To follow the course of Nature was to pull the guy out of the water from drowning. This the way I understand the meaning of Wu Wei. Shall we apply the meaning of Wu Wei correctly...???

 

BTW The moral of your story was due to the ignorance of the law.

Edited August 1, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

What would you consider an act where one person rescues another person.

Do we know if the person rescued will run someone over with their car in the future.

Should we help others or just let them be.

My definition would be acting appropriately in any given situation.

Separation of man and nature is in the mind of man.

Men arent bears

The thing with the bears is a karmic act

of compassion for bears (at best)

Human nature is to partake of the human social

contract and again if you or I were to rescue people

stuck in the dumpster its still a karmic act

theres nothing to prevent you from doing a karmic act

theres no policeman or godly judge to push you to it

nor to push you away from it

Its just not an example demonstrating wei wu wei

It also isnt a direct transgression of wei wu wei either

for the reasons already given

Ive personally done as much for raccoons in our dumpster

not 100 yards from where I am sitting now.

but that doesnt make it an example of wei wu wei

I am writing this post, with best intent

and that still isnt an act of wei wu wei!

 

The underlying intent of Lao tzu wasnt to set new

requirements responsibilities standards , to make us all "good"

people ,,we are already 'good',unless rendered elsewise.

 

The point , trickled down from one to the next

for over two thousand years was a compassionate one

to let us OFF our own 'hook' ..

that we dont need to carry the responsibilities of the world

and that "every little thing ..gonna be alright" anyway!

and its gonna be just fine even if you do want to rescue bears!

And they sent a whole slew of examples and scenarios and hints

to make it even easier!

There is no supernatural something that spanks those who help, or

do not want to, help bears.

Everything gonna be alright anyway!

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

Usually bins like that where the are bears around, they have high walls and no side access for the very reason to keep the bears out - they tend to make a huge mess of things otherwise. The bears didnt belong in there in the first place, and had human-measures proved effective, the bears wouldnt have been in there.

 

We also dont know the context - what if that were my plot of land, I put that dumpster there, and discovered that without my acting I would have two dead bear cubs in there?

 

Look at how easy it was for the humans to come to the rescue. It would have taken a rather dispassionate person to close their ears and eyes and sentence two cubs.

Yes it would be extremely dispassionate

Do you think that Tao or Buddhism is about enhancing passions?

If it were rattlesnakes in there would you feel responsible, compelled,

to do something about it?

Are you happy with these biases and compulsions? Then keep them.

Who is there to tell you can't?

 

Stosh

[joeblast]

1. The problem now, there are bears inside the bin. How did they get in was not the question but they are inside the bin now.

 

2. Nobody tells you not to act, but Just do it the proper way to guarantee their safety.

 

3. Yes, they did a good thing.

 

 

Note: The discussion, here, was straightly based on a philosophical view of Wu Wei in an analytical manner. What it actually means and how to handle it in different situations. If anyone wish to leave yourself outside the definition of Wu Wei for your argument, then you are the winner.

Well, now you're bastardizing the situation by removing all of the context - if you refuse to consider the culmination of events that landed the bears there, you are ignoring the whole picture and are operating on a limited basis - how's wu wei reflected in that???

 

That was a significant point of Taomeow's words on the topic - the consideration of the larger context.

[Stosh]

Yep. I would be willing to lay odds that you will be the only one with that view.

 

But I do see your reasoning even though I don't agree with it.

Thats good enough for me

 

But if you want to point at the thing I said that was incorrect

or the flaw in the reasoning

Im willing to address it-them.

My expectation is that it is more the 'spiritual attitude' that you

dont embrace and it is birthed in the idea that wei wu wei

or Tao is supposed to direct one to "be good" and I am not telling folks

that they need to be nice or good or ANYTHING

Thats up to you-them

Im just saying that the message is about freeing you

from the burdens self and externally sourced and engrained attitudes.

Stosh

[mYTHmAKER]

There is no supernatural something that spanks those who help, or

do not want to, help bears.

Everything gonna be alright anyway!

Stosh

 

Agree

[The Observer]

Here in the UK we've been beaten over the head with various "Health & Safety" Regulations & our formerly respected Police, Fire & Ambulance service have all had their hands tied up with Red Tape.

 

So much so that recently Policemen weren't allowed to try & rescue a man found floating face down in a pond that was only about 2 foot deep. As they didn't have the correct "diving" equipment and hadn't gone on a course teaching them how to safely drag somebody out of the water !!!

 

Eye witnesses said that the chap had just gone to the waters edge & fainted a couple of minutes earlier. But the senior Police officer there threatened to report any junior Officer that entered the water to effect a rescue !!! He then made sure that his Officers were kept busy stopping members of the public trying to wade into the Pond to drag the guy out !!!

 

Eventually some Paramedics arrived, the guy was pulled out and guess what ? He'd drowned !!!!

 

Moral of the Story : If you ever see one of these Health & Safety types drowning... leave them there and let nature take its course. It'll make the World a better & safer place !!! Perfect Wu Wei.

 

 

 

Basher

 

I think this is a great real life example of what happens when a government loses Dao. Luckily the Dao De Jing tells us: "That which goes against the Dao comes to an early end."

[Stosh]

Agree

Terriffic !

[Marblehead]

Thats good enough for me

 

But if you want to point at the thing I said that was incorrect

or the flaw in the reasoning

Im willing to address it-them.

Thanks for being open for input. No, I think it would be inefficient to try to speak to that post as it was a pretty long one and there are not enough concrete sentences to speak to.

 

There are a couple wu wei threads going now so we will likely get the chance to speak to some of what you said.

[james liem]

Yes, wu wei is being in harmony with Nature. When there is disharmony or out of balance, Nature will bring it back into harmony and balance. It doesn't matter how serious the disaster was, Nature will always restore it back to normalcy. For example, when there is a fire in the forest, the fire eventually will be extinguished and new trees will grown again to recycle the forest.

This example is not Wu wei, it is Zhi ran...

 

The perfect example of Wu wei is water

[ChiDragon]

This example is not Wu wei, it is Zhi ran...

 

The perfect example of Wu wei is water

 

Zhi ran is the hidden meaning for Wu Wei. You didn't follow the other thread on Wu Wei. Did you...???

 

Tao is seems like water....!!!

[Marblehead]

My applaud for the last two posts.

 

Yes, it is my personal opinion that one must understand Tzujan (Zhi ran) before one can truely understand wu wei. Or, perhaps we can understand Tzujan as a result of understanding wu wei?

 

But let's be careful because I believe that both wu wei and wei wu wei are Tzujan. (Tzujan being non-dualistic and wu wei and wei wu wei being dualistic. Well, kinda'.)

[Diamond Spectrum]

Ain't that the truth!

[james liem]

CD.. Zhi ran and Wu wei has a difference meaning. You can not say that zhi ran is the hidden meaning for wu wei. Tao isn't seems like water. What I meant with the perfect example of wu wei is water is that the characteristic of water can be a perfect example of wu wei in daily life. It flows to the lowest area, it gives many benefit to humans and other creatures and so on, but water has never ask humans or other creatures to pay back what was given.

[Stosh]

Folks do acts of wei wu wei every day

its just the terminology that is skewed

 

folks are looking for extreme stuff

but its the mundane crap that fits the definition

 

You go to work, do your job, mind your own business,

B.S. with your coworkers ,use a bit of common sense

give the wife a hug, walk the dog, meditate a bit

and hit the sack.

Its living simply , not trying to be the belle of the ball

strike it rich or determine the fate of the masses.

 

Stosh