The Spiritual Splendour of the Ego

[Nikolai1]

[manitou]

I think when people talk about the ego as a negative thing, it's because it's a hurdle to their growth. It's hard to see something through eyes that aren't ours - to place ourselves in the space of someone else and see through their eyes. Your point is well taken as to the ego itself being a spiritual achievement; no doubt man is the only animal who has fully developed it (although I've seen some pretty egoistic stallions, bulls, and dogs too).

 

But IMO cutting through, sidestepping, or transcending the ego is necessary for us to get to the bottom of who we are. To keep ego in check we must constantly examine our own motives for doing or not doing a thing. If it's for our own aggrandizement, this only serves to reinforce our ego even further. If instead we are acting out of compassion for others and place ourselves in a secondary position, then one day at a time the ego is trimmed down to size and we can actually see around it.

 

Spiritual splendour, yes! The ego appears to be a device for It to break through; apparently it's a necessary part of the process...

 

Thanks for your evolved post!

[et-thoughts]

Hi Nikolai,

 

Some use their present existence to argue about not existing ... I say use their present existence to exist fully!

 

This self has an issue with those who propose the illusion of self. The I am presence in me declares that the ego, like the mind, the body, the spirit be vehicles to care, develop, maintain. and more... To those who propose the believe that i should deny itself (by claiming the I is an illusion), I would say, that they fallen for the illusion of development that keeps them from developing. What be ironic is that they would likely say that I be a victim of the illusion that keeps me from developing. Personally I find these illusions entertaining, though I find the realities more rewarding. So what do we want to focus on and cultivate? this or that illusion OR this and that REALITY!

 

It may well be that I be dreaming the dream of me and you being real and need to awaken, then again maybe this dream is actually real and determines once and for all what each chooses to be for evermore... I say, be it a dream, be it real, always choose the better way, and make the experience the perfect experience! Why would one be concerned if one come to an impasse of personal demise, after that moment one be no more ... be concerned if one comes to an impasse and freely chooses to be no more, rather than to be a bit more... this means to always strive to love, care, develop, maintain, learn, grow, live a bit more... rather than cease to be altogether. Note that "chooses to be no more" is quite different different from 'choose to be what one currently is"... recognize and keep this distinction. Thinking that "chooses to be no more" refers to "appreciate and be contempt to be what one be by choosing to keep it rather than trading if for something else" distracts the thinker from the intended meaning. There are many ways to view stuff some of these will help you see with clarity and some will obscure the point by appearing to clarify something else. Know what be and what can be always choosing the better ways to be.

[et-thoughts]

... out of compassion for others and place ourselves in a secondary position, ...

 

Seems to imply the existence of different hierarchical positions ... fist, second, third etc... consider that

 

... out of compassion for others we ought to position ourselves next to them and help them know feel experience better stuff ...

 

Hope the readers see the actual intention of this post instead of choosing to embrace something else... But hey do as you wish :-)

[astralc]

Nikoli, good post, Freud described the Ego as the interface between our inner psyche's urges, drives, morals and rules and the outside world. As you stated, a strong ego is necessary for us to manage the stresses of the world out there, there is a reason for this.

 

The reason is the Id, which Freud described as that part of our psyche that is where our urges, disappointments, drives, strengths, hurts, weaknesses, emotional issues, etc. its like a little child pushed and pulled by their emotions, their wants and desires moment by moment. To prevent our being driven by our emotions we need to keep it under control, keep it real and calm, we do that with our Ego.

 

Then he went on to explain that we also have a Super Ego, which is developed from the rules and morals placed upon us by our parents and significant others. This is where we get our shouldn'ts, and shoulds, musts and must nots, have to's etc.

 

The Ego develops early in our childhood according to what we are exposed to by our parents and others. If our parents are balanced we develop strong and balanced Egos, but if our parents are unbalanced and we are exposed to inconsistencies in our upbringing, poor attachment, then we develop weak Ego's which can allow either the Id or the Super Ego to take control and rule our daily life.

 

An out of control Id presents as moody, rude, aggressive, tantrums, tears, Borderline and hysterical behaviours, we become ruled by our uncontrolled emotions. While an overly strong Super Ego becomes an overly religious, dogmatic, controlling thru rules and 'holier than thou' behaviours.

 

Thanks for your interesting thread and letting me rave on

[Vmarco]

[manitou]

An out of control Id presents as moody, rude, aggressive, tantrums, tears, Borderline and hysterical behaviours, we become ruled by our uncontrolled emotions. While an overly strong Super Ego becomes an overly religious, dogmatic, controlling thru rules and 'holier than thou' behaviours.

 

 

 

Wow. Can I ever see myself and my partner in this paragraph. This is like the bottom essence we both have to work with... Very nicely put, astraic. Wow.

 

VMarco - that was one incredible piece of writing. It's going to take some time to digest it fully, but I have a feeling it will be well worth it. Thank you for the time you took to do that...

Edited June 7, 2012 by manitou

[et-thoughts]

Vmarco

 

Oh how I like your response Vmarc, Now let us each share an eternal instant that can change it all (or not).

 

Deep down I believe you know/feel/trust that enlightenment happens ... and that enlightenment happens when enlightenment happens!

 

There is nothing one can do to make it happen when it isn't supposed to happen nor to prevent it from happening when it is supposed to happen for enlightenment happens when enlightenment happens!

 

What one can do, what one can't do in the container, outside the container seen from within the container and seen from without the container differ quite a bit ... though it may appear otherwise. The other day I did a cartoon to make a point about the enslaving container to a friend... will have to see if I find it to post here... though I would have to translate it into english first. It was rather amusing that each side would claim to the other "you are enslaved" if you choose to be free come to this side... Each side would respond "you want to trick me into enslavement"... the irony of the matter was that the one who thought themselves to be free was deceived and enslaved by thinking that they where free; while the one who knew themselves to be bound enjoyed greater freedom. Any way both the noble and the liar will claim to tell the truth stating "I tell the truth"... each will be doing honor to their condition with the exact same words.. the noble would be telling the truth and the liar would be telling a lie.

 

BTW with a singular insight one can think/feel/experience their way out of the container of duality ... or more precisely be enlightened to what be really going on in and throughout. In the eternal instant where the past-present-future be, one can see all of time and no time and a bit more... The present arises regardless of the presence ... just like the truth be regardless of someone claiming it, denying it, knowing it, ignoring it... Thinking CAN and does experience the world directly, when properly done, it can change the future the present the past and more. Sometimes thinking is a product of space-time then there are the cases where thinking be independent of space-time and still there be the cases where thinking be thinking.

 

Why try to do when one can simply do? Some thinking-selves reinforce and focus on the false thoughts and some thinking-selves reinforce and focus on the thoughts that enlighten them and others through singular distinctions and integrations. One can be one with another in separation an in union within time and where time begins, ends and endures.

 

I am curious how anyone can manage to perceive objects in the past... seems to me that now be the only instant there be!

being in the actual Now or Present reflects being in the actual Now or Present it does not have to do with the dissolution of something nor the recognition of something it has to do with being in the actual now or present.

 

The truth be the truth, declared to be or not declared to be, The truth be the truth!

The intellect grounded in the absolute knows the truth... be it relative or absolute.

For the intellect grounded in the relative The absolute is not within the reach of intellect...

A true relativist would deny being a relativist in rejecting the absolute truth and would deny being a relativist in accepting the absolute truth.

Where as a true absolutists can always become both a relativist and absolutist by choosing the absolute truth.

 

I am all for an honest dialogue about these matters be it in dreams, be it in realities so long we seek to hold together a reality that is real sustainable-desirable-congruent with life. Real presence is always available, the challenge is embracing it. Anything can exists in balance and without balance. The Instinctual, Emotional, and Intellectual Centers can help us and hinder us just as balance can. Endeavor to understand-expserience-apreciate the universe and more. Cultivate and master body-mind-spirit though realize that even when you attain and achieve full mastery of physical energy, universal mindedness, and spiritual insight - and express them in a virtuous integral life, to attain pure Tao one still has to LOVE. In fact with pure LOVE, mastery of the body-mind-spirit isn't required for one lives a virtuous integral life, not to attain pure Tao but to exude pure Tao.

 

earth energy - body

heaven energy - mind

harmonized energy - spirit

 

The present is present in time and present outside the container of time and no time. Now we can know many realities through the six senses and through other means but beware that some possibilities where meant to remain as possibilities where as some where intended to become realities. Evidently our senses, beliefs thoughts emotions bodies and other stuff affect us and each other. Give pause and/or triggers various transformational states to awaken what needs awakening and bind what needs binding now be the time to do it once and for all. Draw attention to what is true in us, in others, throughout everything for as we learn to recognize the truth as the truth, there can be lasting transformations, and each will always be drawn towards the truth of the matter even within illusion, for divine dreams can and do come true... while false delusions fade away.

 

BE present now, thank God, who sustains everything and enlightens all. If someone threatens you be valiant and chose peace. If someone intends to slaps move so it becomes a caress and properly directs the energy in constructive ways. Dance jujitsu style and move with love in love for love.

[astralc]

Wow. Can I ever see myself and my partner in this paragraph. This is like the bottom essence we both have to work with... Very nicely put, astraic. Wow.

 

VMarco - that was one incredible piece of writing. It's going to take some time to digest it fully, but I have a feeling it will be well worth it. Thank you for the time you took to do that...

 

Thanks Manitou, that was nice of you, and I hope you can sort your partner out a bit. Looks like 6 years study was worth it, some of it stuck in my head after all

 

Astralc

[Nikolai1]

Thanks for all your amazing posts!

[z00se]

[Everything]

sorry double post

Edited June 10, 2012 by Everything

[Everything]

I also wonder all the time, how come I have memories or imaginations that don't manifest instantenously as I think about them? I know so deeply that what I imagine is just as real as what I perceive outside of me. All of my imagination is but another perception of the variety of existance.

 

I come up with an imagination about why my imagination doesn't manifest instantly. I see in this imagination the ego filters these imaginations into its interpretation and creates images in your head that the ego can relate to. Thus, you become blind to the real unfiltered raw data that is being communicated to you trough you imagination, because your ego filters it so strongly.

 

Not to mention that it already exists right here and now... Its just that the ego filters that too, so you become blind to it aswell. The ego has a job in a sense, and it is to focus you in physical reality. We should not give it more responsibility than that.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Everything

[et-thoughts]

I also wonder all the time, how come I have memories or imaginations that don't manifest instantenously as I think about them? I know so deeply that what I imagine is just as real as what I perceive outside of me. All of my imagination is but another perception of the variety of existance.

 

I come up with an imagination about why my imagination doesn't manifest instantly. I see in this imagination the ego filters these imaginations into its interpretation and creates images in your head that the ego can relate to. Thus, you become blind to the real unfiltered raw data that is being communicated to you trough you imagination, because your ego filters it so strongly.

 

Not to mention that it already exists right here and now... Its just that the ego filters that too, so you become blind to it aswell. The ego has a job in a sense, and it is to focus you in physical reality. We should not give it more responsibility than that.

 

I see some egos do what you state and then some egos do something else which allows other stuff to take place... so I come up with the story that its more about how the egos been educated than about the ego itself... the ego can be educated differently... the stuff that "don't manifest instantenously as I think about them" stems from dealing with other issues ... which may even relate to what the others beings that surround us think... the same story applies its more about the education involved...

[et-thoughts]

 

So then here comes the point of my post...

Is there something beyond enlightenment? Once you've woken up, is that only the beginning?

 

(...snipped...)

 

I would really like to make another thread for this to get more input from others but when i saw this quote i saw it as a chance to put it up in this thread.

 

Yes, Yes ... caring water and chopping wood become whole different experiences for the enlightened ...

[Nikolai1]

I also wonder all the time, how come I have memories or imaginations that don't manifest instantenously as I think about them?

 

The memories and the imaginations are manifestations in themselves. I think there is a tacit dualism in your question. You think that there is a subjective realm whose contents can either stay subjective, or 'manifest' in reality. If you think this way then you will be wondering forever! A thought is the manifestation.

 

There is no difference between your 'thoughts' and your 'perceptions'. Even though your 'thoughts' may seem shadowy and dim and your perceptions bright and clear you must learn that they are the same thing. Only then will your shadowy thoughts appear as bright and illumined as your perceptions do now.

 

It will help if you realise that your 'thoughts' are not 'about' anything but are here and now realities in themselves. The illusion is that our thoughts refer to independently existing events that either occurred or shall occur in time. This is only half the story. A thought is both 'about' something, and is also a here-and-now thing in itself. You must learn to recognise both aspects.

 

The ego has a job in a sense, and it is to focus you in physical reality. We should not give it more responsibility than that.

 

The ego does not have a job and there is no physical reality to focus you in. Physical reality and the subjective thought realm are the same. The ego is just one of the things that crops up sporadically, as does everything else.

 

I hope this helps, Nikolai

[et-thoughts]

Physical reality and the subjective thought realm are the same.

 

The Physical reality be the physical reality...

the subjective thought realm be the subjective thought realm...

whether these two interact, or more precisely how these two interact depends on what be going on...

 

Its easy to confuse what seems to be real because its real with what seems to be real because it seems to be real...

 

be careful

[Nikolai1]

Hi et thoughts - could you tell me more so I fully understand you

 

thanks, nikolai

[Stosh]

 

The ego does not have a job and there is no physical reality to focus you in. Physical reality and the subjective thought realm are the same. The ego is just one of the things that crops up sporadically, as does everything else.

 

I hope this helps, Nikolai

 

 

There seems to be some debate whether the ego is a good thing to keep or not.

( I prefer to keep mine , but probably should probably reconsider its importance, I am in a state of flux about this idea myself)

There seems to be two views on what an ego is , some use the word to describe a willful sense of self that tends to drive us independent of our surroundings bringing us grief as we fight with what the world is around us.

I am not sure that the freudian ego is where the sense of 'self' resides because a person can feel extemely 'present' when acting out of the Superego or the ID.

It seems that the majority here prefers to see themselves as "GOOD" or compassionate despite the fact that such feelings are subjective, so I am confused as to whether Taoism considers that paradigm (good vs evil) as an undesirable one to keep or not.

 

But the physical events we observe with our senses are interpreted by our brains into a sort of model which we use to function in the world. (model dependent reality)

The model is not the physical reality , the true reality is always beyond our ability to observe, the model is in your head.

EX.. You cannot see ultraviolet light , and although it is there.. Ultraviolet light is not in the model you create looking at a tree, cars etc..

The subjective thought realm (subjective reality) isnt observable by anyone else at all! I might be able to read your facial muscles but I don't know what heck you are thinking, unless you bring it into the objective realm by smiling etc, and even then I cant be sure.

Stosh

Edited June 10, 2012 by Stosh

[Informer]

 

 

One could say (according to the Mountain Doctrine) that there are two I's,...the phenomenal "I," and the noumenal "I." The phenomenal "I" is neither good or bad,...however, for most, this is what drives the vehicle, and often believes that it is the vehicle.

 

The priests of science say, “I think, therefore I am” (Cogito ergo sum). Yet how does the “I think” (the Phenomena) the little i, the ego, come before the “I Am” (the Noumena)? Thinking does not and cannot experience the world directly; thinking is always and necessarily a result of the past. Simply try to think in the present or the now; it is impossible. Thinking is a product of space-time. Our thinking-selves are one of ego’s means of reinforcing the false through an imagined continuity in separation.

 

The I Am or noumenal "I" is One without Other. The I Think or phenomenal "I" is self separate from Other. As long as an Other is perceived, the perceiver is tethered to the past. Objects can only be perceived in the past.

 

"I think therefore exist."

 

 

It does not say you are an I, it only says that upon pondering existence you affirm existence.

 

"I think therefore I am" is the subjective perspective, with I being placeholder for whatever is questioning. Yet you only affirm existence of something, not defining what exactly. It isn't pointing at I as you are thinking, it is pointing at the existence of a question in the very least.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Informer

[et-thoughts]

The Physical reality be the physical reality...

the subjective thought realm be the subjective thought realm...

whether these two interact, or more precisely how these two interact depends on what be going on...

 

Its easy to confuse what seems to be real because its real with what seems to be real because it seems to be real...

 

be careful

Nikolai1

 

I assume you want me to elaborate a bit on my last post...

 

Will try to do that using the map and the territory analogy... with a third distinctive domain... so we have a map, a territory and distinctions... The distinctions can be of the map, of the territory, of the distinctions. To me its self evident that the territory exists independent of someone distinguishing its existence or having a map of it. "The Physical reality be the physical reality..." Now "the subjective thought realm" is a bit like the map world. Some stuff in the map corresponds to stuff in the physical reality and then some stuff in the map belongs to the map. Take for example 'city-county-states line boundaries' ... The boundaries in the territory are somewhat arbitrarily defined... in reality these 'boundaries' are much less clear. Butterflies constantly move from canada to mexico to canada. Do these bugs have a nationality? How about birds, deer, fish, wales ? How about particles that move from place to place? How deep does the rabbit hole goes?

 

Some of the distinctions belong only to the world of maps (subjective thoughts) , and some distinctions belong only to the territory (the physical realm) and some distinctions belong only to the distinction realm... of course this all gets a bit more intriguing when distinctive thought-feelings-emotions interact and create realities. Imagine that drawing a map of a territory creates that territory vice-versa. If you have a hard time imagining this just google the 3D printing technologies being developed... where a computer design of a tool produces the tool envisioned and 3D scan-imaging of the tool creates a computer design of it.

 

I said that Its easy to confuse what seems to be real because its real with what seems to be real because it seems to be real... I am sure we could find examples of this in many domains... some talented counterfeiters excel at it...

[Informer]

If a thought exists, then there must be existence.

 

Do I exist? Here A thought does exist. (As a question in this case)

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

There must be existence.

[Stosh]

If a thought exists, then there must be existence.

 

Do I exist? Here A thought does exist. (As a question in this case)

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

There must be existence.

 

But It only proves the existence of thoughts.

[Informer]

But It only proves the existence of thoughts.

 

It doesn't really prove anything, just provides evidence for existence.

 

(self-evident) Existence of subjective phenomena.

 

I can't affirm to you that I exist, you can only affirm to yourself that there is existence simply by thinking the question.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Informer

[Stosh]

It doesn't really prove anything, just provides evidence for existence.

I could go with that view too

But it at least a self fulfilling equasion,

and as far as proving anything can be done

Thats a good way to do it