Compassion

[baiqi]

I prefer the concept of charity to compassion.

 

It might sound chrisitian, but I believe the idea of suffering with (com: with; passion: suffering) is not so taoist. (ie: it's no good at all! )

 

I want to be happy and the others to be happy too. I don't see the point of being unhappy together.

 

This being said, you need to feel the pain of the others in order to be able to help. If don't give a sh** about the other's pain, you won't even try to help. But this mustn't be a permanant state, just the starter.

 

Actually too much compassion can block you. Too much indiference you don't even start anything.

[dwai]

VMarco does not attempt to respond to petty questions easily accessible from Wiki. However, now that you "discovered" that karuna is the sanskrit for compassion, and continue to be confused, let's look at it in context of the top post.

 

To "feel another's suffering and the desire to eliminate the pain" on the level of absolute compassion means to understand that all suffering arises from the 6 senses, and thus to liberate such suffering is to point to the reality of those 6 senses. However, one cannot truly "feel" the suffering in another, until they recognize the suffering in themselves, which, according to the 9 sources in the top post, is impossible, without the gnowledge of emptiness.

 

So, let's simplify it,....again, in the context of the MESSAGE within the 9 sources of the top post,...Your understanding of compassion is useless (and always false) until you understand Who is Who in duality.

 

Lao Tzu correctly said, "The Tao gives birth to One. One gives birth to yin and yang. Yin and yang give birth to all things."

 

The Tao is NOT One,...it merely gave birth to One. However, to understand compassion, you must understand One, because absolute compassion arises through the primordial energy of One. To understand One, you must realize Yin and Yang. Unfortunately, most are absorbed in Yang (form), and thus understand neither.

 

The Lingam is not a phallus, but is Form,...likewise, yoni is not a vagina, but is Emptiness. When the ignorant view a representation of a yoni, they describe it by what is around it, they do not describe the yoni itself.

 

Visualize a keyhole for a moment, one of those slotted holes that can be peeped through, as in old Colonial and Victorian houses. Now, describe that hole. Some may say that it has the shape of a circle with a rectangle whose width is smaller than the diameter of the circle aligned on the bottom; others could respond that the hole is surrounded by a brass plate that is attached to the door, which is connected to the wall, etc. Perhaps the hole could be looked through, so one could remark about what is seen on the other side. However, none of that actually describes the hole; all of the preceding descriptions are narratives about what is around or can be seen through the hole. Nevertheless, that is how most persons, especially Westerners and scientists, perceive their own wholeness: by what is around it.

 

To understand absolute compassion, as per the 9 sources in the top post, you must realize that wholeness is not what's around it, which is Form, and yet there is no Form without the Empty of the Wholeness.

 

Realizing that Form is Empty, and Empty is Form, uncovers Oneness,...neither of which is the Tao. The Tao contains no primordial energy.

"the Tao doesn't come and go."

 

I don't have to rely on wikis to know this. I am very familiar with the nuances of my native languages

 

You are the one who's confused. Go learn some sanskrit or pali before trying to teach others what the words used in those languages (and traditions rising from therein) mean...

 

Congrats btw for realizing that the lingam is a sign (ie like a mark) and not a phallus. You are doing better than most other westerners in that aspect...one gold monkey to you.

 

I chose to call you out on it because its obvious to me how much you really know...

 

You can only at best learn interpretations and translated versions if you don't understand the native language.

 

Karuna is not just compassion...it is an active emotion, as is evident because of the "ka" (from "Kr" ie to act) in its etymology. Karuna is the emotion that moves one to do something to help eliminate the suffering that causes pain (in another).

Edited April 12, 2012 by dwai

[Marblehead]

I think the division of reality into compartments might be an illlusion of convenience that conspires against integrity.

Well, darn! I did try though, didn't I? Hehehe.

 

You are probably right but I will likely never admit to it. (I like my illusions and delusions. Hehehe.)

[Creation]

I chose to call you out on it because its obvious to me how much you really know...

 

You can only at best learn interpretations and translated versions if you don't understand the native language.

 

Karuna is not just compassion...it is an active emotion, as is evident because of the "ka" (from "Kr" ie to act) in its etymology. Karuna is the emotion that moves one to do something to help eliminate the suffering that causes pain (in another).

Thanks for the info dwai.

 

But speaking of nuances, I get the impression that the meaning implied by karuna to a Mahayanist is quite different than to a practitioner of another dharmic tradition, even Theravada. Sort of like in the English language there are scientific terms with very technical meanings that someone who is a native English speaker wouldn't necessarily know the nuances of, but a scientist speaking another language might do perfectly fine with the technical concept because of his training, without knowing the subtleties of the etymology of the English word.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Creation

[Vmarco]

I chose to call you out on it because its obvious to me how much you really know...

 

You can only at best learn interpretations and translated versions if you don't understand the native language.

 

Karuna is not just compassion...it is an active emotion, as is evident because of the "ka" (from "Kr" ie to act) in its etymology. Karuna is the emotion that moves one to do something to help eliminate the suffering that causes pain (in another).

 

 

Your posts suggest that you are a very disturbed and suffering person. Let's backrack to highlight that point.

 

dwai writes:

 

What is buddhist term for compassion...either sanskrit or pali please...

 

VMarco does not respond to such an elementry question,...one in which any considerate Westerner would simply type "Buddhist Compassion" on a search engine, and been shown thousands of entries, which among the first would be karuna,.. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karuṇā

 

Then, in response to VMarco's non-response, dwai spews, GOTCHA! "I don't have to rely on wikis to know this. I am very familiar with the nuances of my native languages." Thus, dwai is at the very least an ingenuine person, asking a question he already believes he knows, and second, deeply ignorant, as he actually does not understand his own native language which he implies includes the word "karuna."

 

Dwai's suffering is so profound that he actually believes he is making some sort of contribution on this forum.

 

CT's video above on Compassion and Pity was interesting,...however, if one is paying attention, the monk let it be known that his definition was conditioned by his Tradition and his (mistaken)ideas regarding meditation.

 

A few years ago, a woman named Esther Hicks made a quite pithy observation,...she said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to your [Higher Self]."

 

Within that quote can be seen the nature of suffering. The unappreciative are always in a state in of suffering.

 

For the most part, the majority of posters at TTB are unappreciative. They play games like dwai,...for example, setting up questions they believe they already know so to say gotcha!. Twinner is similiar,...he is writing a book on compassion because he already believes he knows everything about compassion,...for example, Twinner says:

 

A compassionate person would not write any of this... fact and point. A compassionate person would see the struggle of egos within this thread and steer clear

 

Twinner is another unppreciative individual who presumes he knows what compassion is.

 

An unappreciative individual does not, and cannot understand the nature of authentic compassion in the Bodhisattva view, because compassion is a natural byproduct of appreciation. It doesn't come from, nor arise from meditation,...although meditation can be a stepping stone to appreciation.

 

Appreciation is also the core of the admirable friendship of a proper sangha. Every spiritually oriented forum should be as a sangha,...helping and encouraging and expressing a positive message within the forum. Instead, the egoic, gotcha! mentality on TTB is a reflection of the contemporary world today.

 

VMarco is not on this forum to teach, nor to advocate the positiveness of a sangha,...she is predominately here to learn about how negative, insincere people express their unappreciativeness.

 

V

[dwai]

Your posts suggest that you are a very disturbed and suffering person. Let's backrack to highlight that point.

 

dwai writes:

 

What is buddhist term for compassion...either sanskrit or pali please...

 

VMarco does not respond to such an elementry question,...one in which any considerate Westerner would simply type "Buddhist Compassion" on a search engine, and been shown thousands of entries, which among the first would be karuna,.. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karuṇā

 

Then, in response to VMarco's non-response, dwai spews, GOTCHA! "I don't have to rely on wikis to know this. I am very familiar with the nuances of my native languages." Thus, dwai is at the very least an ingenuine person, asking a question he already believes he knows, and second, deeply ignorant, as he actually does not understand his own native language which he implies includes the word "karuna."

 

Dwai's suffering is so profound that he actually believes he is making some sort of contribution on this forum.

 

CT's video above on Compassion and Pity was interesting,...however, if one is paying attention, the monk let it be known that his definition was conditioned by his Tradition and his (mistaken)ideas regarding meditation.

 

A few years ago, a woman named Esther Hicks made a quite pithy observation,...she said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to your [Higher Self]."

 

Within that quote can be seen the nature of suffering. The unappreciative are always in a state in of suffering.

 

For the most part, the majority of posters at TTB are unappreciative. They play games like dwai,...for example, setting up questions they believe they already know so to say gotcha!. Twinner is similiar,...he is writing a book on compassion because he already believes he knows everything about compassion,...for example, Twinner says:

 

A compassionate person would not write any of this... fact and point. A compassionate person would see the struggle of egos within this thread and steer clear

 

Twinner is another unppreciative individual who presumes he knows what compassion is.

 

An unappreciative individual does not, and cannot understand the nature of authentic compassion in the Bodhisattva view, because compassion is a natural byproduct of appreciation. It doesn't come from, nor arise from meditation,...although meditation can be a stepping stone to appreciation.

 

Appreciation is also the core of the admirable friendship of a proper sangha. Every spiritually oriented forum should be as a sangha,...helping and encouraging and expressing a positive message within the forum. Instead, the egoic, gotcha! mentality on TTB is a reflection of the contemporary world today.

 

VMarco is not on this forum to teach, nor to advocate the positiveness of a sangha,...she is predominately here to learn about how negative, insincere people express their unappreciativeness.

 

V

 

And all your posts suggest delusions of exaltedness where nothing of that sort is warranted or demonstrated. I could do a complete deconstruction of the individual behind vmarco, but i wont because i think you arent ready to hear it yet....there is way too much hubris. Remember, the respect you show is reflected back...

 

I also think you +1your own posts because no one in their right mind would appreciate your delusions. You are projecting your own disturbedness onto others...

 

Well...since this thread IS about compassion here's a GET WELL SOON...

[Aetherous]

Your posts suggest that you are a very disturbed and suffering person.

 

"Love me when I least deserve it, because that is when I really need it."

-Swedish Proverb

[dwai]

Thanks for the info dwai.

 

But speaking of nuances, I get the impression that the meaning implied by karuna to a Mahayanist is quite different than to a practitioner of another dharmic tradition, even Theravada. Sort of like in the English language there are scientific terms with very technical meanings that someone who is a native English speaker wouldn't necessarily know the nuances of, but a scientist speaking another language might do perfectly fine with the technical concept because of his training, without knowing the subtleties of the etymology of the English word.

Hi creation,

 

Do elaborate. I am interested in learning more...

[Vmarco]

And all your posts suggest delusions of exaltedness where nothing of that sort is warranted or demonstrated. I could do a complete deconstruction of the individual behind vmarco, but i wont because i think you arent ready to hear it yet....there is way too much hubris.

 

No one is asking for your hubris,...but it would be great to hear why you posted in #23:

 

What is buddhist term for compassion...either sanskrit or pali please...

 

And then imply, GOTCHA! when there was no respomse to such an elementary, dishonest question as to karuna; of which you imply is a word within your native language, and that you imagine you understand.

 

If you "hubris" is similiar to the disturbing, dishonesty you've displayed in this thread, it should be a wing-dinger of a story.

 

However, if your ego wishes to expose "delusions of exaltedness" of someone who offers 9 sources of discussion on compassion because they upset the imagined nuances of your native languages, as if your own posted delusions of exaltedness, go ahead.

 

At this point in your continuing dishonesty, a prudent person would simply cease,...while an appreciative person would say thank you. All your posts are showing is that you are neither.

 

On the other hand,...perhaps you could ask another elementary question that you presume you already know,...just to:

 

call you out on it because its obvious to me how much you really know...

 

when your next dishonest question goes unanswered.

 

As Chögyam Trungpa said, "Compassion....has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces."

 

V

[Protector]

Hey, stop picking on Vmarco, sheesh

 

There's this cartoon I'm watching called Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. The character Ant Man is a superhero who is a scientist who want's to make the world a better place. His plans for a better world don't work out and he is forced to do things he doesn't agree with, plus he hates fighting.

Him and Iron Man created a robot called Ultron. Ultron has a mind designed after Ant Man's brain. He is designed as a jailor for super villains and to be there for rehabilitation of these villains.

After some incidents, Ultron learns about violence and decides that the only way to save humanity is to destroy it. Ultron almost succeeded in nuking the world before Ant Man uploaded some information into Ultron to make him think that he's a human too, and so Ultron destroyed himself first.

Because Ultron's mind was designed after Ant Man's, he feels like it's all his fault and that he should quit being a superhero. I think I see the fault in his reasoning and the way Ultron might have worked without trying to destroy everything.

Ant Man doesn't have a space in his heart for villains to exist, and he draws a line between him and the villains, just like Ultron and humans. If Ultron had the idea of being human before he reached his conclusion, things might have worked out differently. Ant Man should do the same.

[Ya Mu]

Your posts suggest that you are a very disturbed and suffering person. Let's backrack to highlight that point.

 

dwai writes:

 

What is buddhist term for compassion...either sanskrit or pali please...

 

VMarco does not respond to such an elementry question,...one in which any considerate Westerner would simply type "Buddhist Compassion" on a search engine, and been shown thousands of entries, which among the first would be karuna,.. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karuṇā

 

Then, in response to VMarco's non-response, dwai spews, GOTCHA! "I don't have to rely on wikis to know this. I am very familiar with the nuances of my native languages." Thus, dwai is at the very least an ingenuine person, asking a question he already believes he knows, and second, deeply ignorant, as he actually does not understand his own native language which he implies includes the word "karuna."

 

Dwai's suffering is so profound that he actually believes he is making some sort of contribution on this forum.

 

CT's video above on Compassion and Pity was interesting,...however, if one is paying attention, the monk let it be known that his definition was conditioned by his Tradition and his (mistaken)ideas regarding meditation.

 

A few years ago, a woman named Esther Hicks made a quite pithy observation,...she said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to your [Higher Self]."

 

Within that quote can be seen the nature of suffering. The unappreciative are always in a state in of suffering.

 

For the most part, the majority of posters at TTB are unappreciative. They play games like dwai,...for example, setting up questions they believe they already know so to say gotcha!. Twinner is similiar,...he is writing a book on compassion because he already believes he knows everything about compassion,...for example, Twinner says:

 

A compassionate person would not write any of this... fact and point. A compassionate person would see the struggle of egos within this thread and steer clear

 

Twinner is another unppreciative individual who presumes he knows what compassion is.

 

An unappreciative individual does not, and cannot understand the nature of authentic compassion in the Bodhisattva view, because compassion is a natural byproduct of appreciation. It doesn't come from, nor arise from meditation,...although meditation can be a stepping stone to appreciation.

 

Appreciation is also the core of the admirable friendship of a proper sangha. Every spiritually oriented forum should be as a sangha,...helping and encouraging and expressing a positive message within the forum. Instead, the egoic, gotcha! mentality on TTB is a reflection of the contemporary world today.

 

VMarco is not on this forum to teach, nor to advocate the positiveness of a sangha,...she is predominately here to learn about how negative, insincere people express their unappreciativeness.

 

V

 

Usually I stay out of threads that talk about Buddhist scholarship in one form or another. Because I am not a Buddhist scholar Just want to say here that your views on appreciation are much appreciated.

 

 

"Every spiritually oriented forum should be as a sangha,...helping and encouraging and expressing a positive message within the forum. Instead, the egoic, gotcha! mentality on TTB is a reflection of the contemporary world today." One would think everyone would think like this.

 

Only thought about compassion, in general, is that it is not about mental gymnastics and is not a passive thing, but a true action. As in, one could have all the best intention in the world but if they never act where is the true compassion? True compassion is not a mental concept but a thing unto itself and what one says is not always the same as the compassionate act itself. And the true act itself, if completed from the higher level self, which is the only way it would be true compassion, almost never coincides with what the sympathy that the linear mind drums up as the problem the compassion is acting upon.

[Creation]

Hi creation,

 

Do elaborate. I am interested in learning more...

Well, in both the Pali Suttas and the Yoga Sutras, cultivation of karuna appears in a set of of four attitudes, the others being metta/maitri (lovingkindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), and uppekha/upeksha (equanimity).

 

As I see it these form a set, only together do they cover all the bases of relating to oneself and others in a positive, virtuous way. Which makes them wonderful to cultivate, but they do no in themselves bring liberation. They are nevertheless recommended for those seeking liberation because they purify the mind of defilements and generate merit. But in some sense they are secondary to cultivation of prajna and/or samadhi.

 

But in Mahayana, karuna is singled out of this list to be equated with equal importance as the cultivation of wisdom in the pursuit of liberation. It is said that the perfect wisdom of a bodhisattva is inseparable from his or her perfect compassion.

 

I must admit that I do not understand this teaching. Like I said, to me karuna makes most sense along with the other three brahmaviharas, as a virtue to cultivate.

 

Actually, I have some ideas on the matter but I am not sure if I want to talk about them in this venue.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Creation

[dwai]

Well, in both the Pali Suttas and the Yoga Sutras, cultivation of karuna appears in a set of of four attitudes, the others being metta/maitri (lovingkindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), and uppekha/upeksha (equanimity).

 

As I see it these form a set, only together do they cover all the bases of relating to oneself and others in a positive, virtuous way. Which makes them wonderful to cultivate, but they do no in themselves bring liberation. They are nevertheless recommended for those seeking liberation because they purify the mind of defilements and generate merit. But in some sense they are secondary to cultivation of prajna and/or samadhi.

 

But in Mahayana, karuna is singled out of this list to be equated with equal importance as the cultivation of wisdom in the pursuit of liberation. It is said that the perfect wisdom of a bodhisattva is inseparable from his or her perfect compassion.

 

I must admit that I do not understand this teaching. Like I said, to me karuna makes most sense along with the other three brahmaviharas, as a virtue to cultivate.

 

Actually, I have some ideas on the matter but I am not sure if I want to talk about them in this venue.

 

Thank you. The brahma viharas are what seem correct to me as well....however it can be said that when prajna dawns it automatically leads to karuna since to an awakened mind, nothing is more painful than the avidya of those who are seeking (or worse do not know about their avidya)?

 

So i understand that perspective...where love, compassion and equanimity rise together as a result of awakening...

[dwai]

No one is asking for your hubris,...but it would be great to hear why you posted in #23:

 

What is buddhist term for compassion...either sanskrit or pali please...

 

And then imply, GOTCHA! when there was no respomse to such an elementary, dishonest question as to karuna; of which you imply is a word within your native language, and that you imagine you understand.

 

If you "hubris" is similiar to the disturbing, dishonesty you've displayed in this thread, it should be a wing-dinger of a story.

 

However, if your ego wishes to expose "delusions of exaltedness" of someone who offers 9 sources of discussion on compassion because they upset the imagined nuances of your native languages, as if your own posted delusions of exaltedness, go ahead.

 

At this point in your continuing dishonesty, a prudent person would simply cease,...while an appreciative person would say thank you. All your posts are showing is that you are neither.

 

On the other hand,...perhaps you could ask another elementary question that you presume you already know,...just to:

 

call you out on it because its obvious to me how much you really know...

 

when your next dishonest question goes unanswered.

 

As Chögyam Trungpa said, "Compassion....has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces."

 

V

 

Dear vmarco,

 

My sincere apologies for having written hurtful things to you...

 

Om shanti

[Vmarco]

Real compassion,...the compassion pointed to in the 9 sources of the top post,...is a consequence of understanding that there is no separation, nor an other. Many Buddhists consider Shantideva to be the best authority on compassion. He said:

 

"those desiring speedily to be

A refuge for themselves and other beings,

Should interchange the terms of I and Other,

And thus embrace a sacred mystery."

 

If anyone can say hurtful things to you, the compassion innate within your consciousness is smothered. If anyone sees others as other, writes to others as other, speaks to others as other, there is no real compassion being expressed.

 

Anyone who has accessed the Heart Center, critiques, but does not criticize.

 

Lao Tzu said, "A superior person cares for the well-being of all things...looking at herself or another, she sees the samething."

[Aetherous]

[Aaron]

Your posts suggest that you are a very disturbed and suffering person. Let's backrack to highlight that point.

 

dwai writes:

 

What is buddhist term for compassion...either sanskrit or pali please...

 

VMarco does not respond to such an elementry question,...one in which any considerate Westerner would simply type "Buddhist Compassion" on a search engine, and been shown thousands of entries, which among the first would be karuna,.. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karuṇā

 

Then, in response to VMarco's non-response, dwai spews, GOTCHA! "I don't have to rely on wikis to know this. I am very familiar with the nuances of my native languages." Thus, dwai is at the very least an ingenuine person, asking a question he already believes he knows, and second, deeply ignorant, as he actually does not understand his own native language which he implies includes the word "karuna."

 

Dwai's suffering is so profound that he actually believes he is making some sort of contribution on this forum.

 

CT's video above on Compassion and Pity was interesting,...however, if one is paying attention, the monk let it be known that his definition was conditioned by his Tradition and his (mistaken)ideas regarding meditation.

 

A few years ago, a woman named Esther Hicks made a quite pithy observation,...she said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to your [Higher Self]."

 

Within that quote can be seen the nature of suffering. The unappreciative are always in a state in of suffering.

 

For the most part, the majority of posters at TTB are unappreciative. They play games like dwai,...for example, setting up questions they believe they already know so to say gotcha!. Twinner is similiar,...he is writing a book on compassion because he already believes he knows everything about compassion,...for example, Twinner says:

 

A compassionate person would not write any of this... fact and point. A compassionate person would see the struggle of egos within this thread and steer clear

 

Twinner is another unppreciative individual who presumes he knows what compassion is.

 

An unappreciative individual does not, and cannot understand the nature of authentic compassion in the Bodhisattva view, because compassion is a natural byproduct of appreciation. It doesn't come from, nor arise from meditation,...although meditation can be a stepping stone to appreciation.

 

Appreciation is also the core of the admirable friendship of a proper sangha. Every spiritually oriented forum should be as a sangha,...helping and encouraging and expressing a positive message within the forum. Instead, the egoic, gotcha! mentality on TTB is a reflection of the contemporary world today.

 

VMarco is not on this forum to teach, nor to advocate the positiveness of a sangha,...she is predominately here to learn about how negative, insincere people express their unappreciativeness.

 

V

 

Hello Vmarco,

 

You're making a lot of assumptions here, the first being that you are right and others are wrong, and I might ask what basis you have to show this to be the truth. The second is that you say people are unappreciative, and I'm sure you've been waiting for me to respond to this, so I hope this helps you out in that regard, but you don't really know whether I am appreciative or not.

 

I have stated that I have been meditating and practicing Taoism for over 20 years, that means I've spent a great deal of time contemplating these things, in particular compassion and the nature of compassion as it's been expressed in the Tao Teh Ching, but I have also studied the idea of compassion in Hinduism, particularly Vedanta, as well as Zen and Ch'an Buddhism. When I conclude that compassion, high compassion to be exact, can't really be taught, it's simply because it is a natural byproduct of an awareness of the nature of existence. What this monk is talking about is compassion as a virtue, compassion as it's expressed within the conditions of the eightfold path. In this sense he is not wrong, or off the mark, but he is on the mark, because the objective of the eightfold path is to teach people to live a virtuous life in the hopes that it will help them to become awakened to their true nature. When one is awakened, then the eightfold path is no longer necessary, because in this awakened state one can practice compassion from their true nature, or original nature.

 

Appreciation has nothing to do with compassion, appreciation has to do with one's objective relationship with other things. I appreciate beautiful flowers and even beautiful weeds. I have appreciated a sheet of paper being blown down the street by the wind, and I did appreciate the effort you made to provide me with sources for compassion. You have assumed that I am unappreciative, but that's entirely up to you.

 

One can appreciate the fact another person tried to help them by pushing them out of the way of a bee, even if that push sent them in front of car that ran them over. It doesn't mean that act was beneficial, only that they understood the intent.

 

I think one can examine the conversations here and clearly pick out those who understand compassion as a virtue and compassion as a product of our original nature, simply by examining the way each of us interacts with each other. I am not entirely or completely compassionate, I can react to people I think are antagonistic or bullying, but I am aware of that and I try very hard not to hold malice for them, as a matter of practicing compassion as a virtue, but I can still feel high compassion rise within me and I can act on it, such as when I was eighteen and thrust my leg inside a revolving glass door to prevent a baby from being crushed. My intention wasn't to be a hero, but rather that I saw the baby's arm wrapped around the inside of the door and I didn't want it to be crushed. I didn't know the baby, nor was anyone watching to say, "oh what a great job you did." I didn't stop for praise, I just checked to make sure the baby was okay and left. I'm sure each of us remembers a time that something like this happened. When people are asked why they've put themselves at risk to help another person, they usually say, "well anyone would've done it" because we believe innately within ourselves that this is true.

 

The true test of compassion as a virtue is being able to treat others with respect regardless of how they treat us. There is no test for high compassion, it arises of its own accord and compels us without explanation. If you understand this, then you have started to gather a glimmer of understanding high compassion.

 

I don't dislike anyone on this board. I see this forum as an immensely positive place, but filled with far too many masters and people who absolutely unequivocally know the truth. Those are the people I tend to question, because more often than not their truths are not based on reality or experience, but rather faith in something they've been told is true.

 

The opposite of compassion is apathy. The opposite of love is hate. When one is behaving with animosity towards another, it's usually not because they lack compassion, or don't care, but rather because they have let their emotions get the better of them. We could all do with a reminder of what Lao Tzu suggested, that the most precious jewels are compassion, frugality, and never competing to be first in the world.

 

If we as a forum can stop the intellectual circle jerks, I think we'll be well on the way to being able to appreciate those three jewels.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

Hi Twinner,

 

Delighted to hear of your aspiration! May it bear fruit!!

 

Found this talk by a Buddhist monk on the subject. You may be able to gain an extra perspective to help you along the way:

 

 

Thanks Cow Tao,

 

I appreciate the video link. I thought he did a good job of explaining the idea of compassion.

 

Aaron

[Vmarco]

 

 

1. You're making a lot of assumptions here, the first being that you are right and others are wrong, and I might ask what basis you have to show this to be the truth.

 

2. I have stated that I have been meditating and practicing Taoism for over 20 years, that means I've spent a great deal of time contemplating these things

 

3. The opposite of compassion is apathy. The opposite of love is hate. When one is behaving with animosity towards another, it's usually not because they lack compassion, or don't care, but rather because they have let their emotions get the better of them. We could all do with a reminder of what Lao Tzu suggested, that the most precious jewels are compassion, frugality, and never competing to be first in the world.

 

4. I think one can examine the conversations here and clearly pick out those who understand compassion as a virtue and compassion as a product of our original nature, simply by examining the way each of us interacts with each other.

 

 

Aaron

 

1. The facts of dwai's trickery is in the thread,...there are no assumptions.

 

2. Please accept my sympathy regarding your "meditating and practicing Taoism for over 20 years,"...perhaps your next life will be able to proceed with better results.

 

3. The kind of compassion being pointed to in the top post has no opposite,...just as real love has no opposite. Nevertheless, your comments, like always, are significant tells regarding your state of sentient beingness.

 

Your posts are quite clear regarding the relative, dualistic nature of your perceptions.

 

4. And no,...you in particular are not able, due to an attachment to thinking, to "pick out those who understand compassion" on this forum...because you haven't a clue about the real nature of the absolute compassion offered by the 9 sources in the top post. At best, you pick out relative compassion, and believe that to be the compassion that Buddha or Lao Tzu pointed to.

 

Real compassion shines light on everything,...especially the beliefs that step between sentient beings and their liberation. Twinners perception of compassion, as shown throughout his posts, views appeasors, avoiders, moderates, etc., as compassion, in contrast to apathy. Buddha would call that view, ignorance.

[C T]

Well, in both the Pali Suttas and the Yoga Sutras, cultivation of karuna appears in a set of of four attitudes, the others being metta/maitri (lovingkindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), and uppekha/upeksha (equanimity).

 

As I see it these form a set, only together do they cover all the bases of relating to oneself and others in a positive, virtuous way. Which makes them wonderful to cultivate, but they do no in themselves bring liberation. They are nevertheless recommended for those seeking liberation because they purify the mind of defilements and generate merit. But in some sense they are secondary to cultivation of prajna and/or samadhi.

 

But in Mahayana, karuna is singled out of this list to be equated with equal importance as the cultivation of wisdom in the pursuit of liberation. It is said that the perfect wisdom of a bodhisattva is inseparable from his or her perfect compassion.

 

I must admit that I do not understand this teaching. Like I said, to me karuna makes most sense along with the other three brahmaviharas, as a virtue to cultivate.

 

Actually, I have some ideas on the matter but I am not sure if I want to talk about them in this venue.

In my understanding, all the different Buddhist vehicles emphasize the same vital import of attaining/perfecting the union of prajna and upaya for liberation to stabilize.

 

While the approaches may vary, i think the underlying basis remains the same. This basis is what gives structure and meaning to the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path.

[minkus]

Sit down, relax mind, open heart, listen

 

[dwai]

1. The facts of dwai's trickery is in the thread,...there are no assumptions.

 

2. Please accept my sympathy regarding your "meditating and practicing Taoism for over 20 years,"...perhaps your next life will be able to proceed with better results.

 

3. The kind of compassion being pointed to in the top post has no opposite,...just as real love has no opposite. Nevertheless, your comments, like always, are significant tells regarding your state of sentient beingness.

 

Your posts are quite clear regarding the relative, dualistic nature of your perceptions.

 

4. And no,...you in particular are not able, due to an attachment to thinking, to "pick out those who understand compassion" on this forum...because you haven't a clue about the real nature of the absolute compassion offered by the 9 sources in the top post. At best, you pick out relative compassion, and believe that to be the compassion that Buddha or Lao Tzu pointed to.

 

Real compassion shines light on everything,...especially the beliefs that step between sentient beings and their liberation. Twinners perception of compassion, as shown throughout his posts, views appeasors, avoiders, moderates, etc., as compassion, in contrast to apathy. Buddha would call that view, ignorance.

 

Just so we are clear....i did no trickery. I simply pointed out to the fact that you dont know what karuna means...

 

The reason i asked for the sanskrit is because we can understand the meaning of the word from the root sounds. That will make the intended meaning of the word very clear, in the original language. Secondly english translations are atrocious for screwing with meanings of untranslatables in sanskrit.

 

I did however express my regrets for having shown your inadequacies and reciprocated to your insults and questioning my mental state. I stand by that...i dont however accept or concede that you know what you are talking about....

[Aaron]

edit- I decided to respond to some of the points in the post.

 

1. The facts of dwai's trickery is in the thread,...there are no assumptions.

 

Dwai's "trickery" was a direct response to your perceived assault on his idea. You two are behaving like the little boy who is being harassed by the bee. The boy's father tells him to leave it alone and it wont bother him, but because the boy is afraid of being stung, he keeps swinging at it and eventually gets stung. If you both quit swinging, and show that you're not a threat to each other, then neither of you will be stung.

 

2. Please accept my sympathy regarding your "meditating and practicing Taoism for over 20 years,"...perhaps your next life will be able to proceed with better results.

 

There is no need to feel sympathy. I'm not competing with you or trying to say that I know more about this than you, rather I am pointing out how my view differs from your own. You still see me as the bee trying to sting you, but really I'm just curious as to what you are, flying around trying to understand exactly what you're saying, while letting you know I am here so you wont try and swing at me.

 

3. The kind of compassion being pointed to in the top post has no opposite,...just as real love has no opposite. Nevertheless, your comments, like always, are significant tells regarding your state of sentient beingness.

 

The kind of compassion that's being talked about isn't necessarily the compassion you're referring to. I was referring to high compassion as it's understood within Taoism and I also said that it can't really be defined, nor have I said it has an opposite. I was just stating that in the context of low virtue, which was what was being referred to by the monk in the video, we can understand the virtue of compassion and define it's parameters.

 

I would also point out that my knowledge comes from experiential understanding of compassion, whereas yours derives from an academic examination, so my description may not coincide with what you've been taught compassion is.

 

Your posts are quite clear regarding the relative, dualistic nature of your perceptions.

 

That's because the virtue of compassion is dualistic in nature and when one explains the concept of high compassion, they need to do so within a framework that can be understood within the dual context of existence. If I were to explain this in a non-dualistic framework, it couldn't be done. In fact the moment you put words on a piece of paper what you're talking about intrinsically becomes dualistic in nature.

 

4. And no,...you in particular are not able, due to an attachment to thinking, to "pick out those who understand compassion" on this forum...because you haven't a clue about the real nature of the absolute compassion offered by the 9 sources in the top post. At best, you pick out relative compassion, and believe that to be the compassion that Buddha or Lao Tzu pointed to.

 

Real compassion shines light on everything,...especially the beliefs that step between sentient beings and their liberation. Twinners perception of compassion, as shown throughout his posts, views appeasors, avoiders, moderates, etc., as compassion, in contrast to apathy. Buddha would call that view, ignorance.

 

I'm not sure what upset you so much, but I would point out that you left out much of what I said to support the notion of compassion as a high virtue in action. I would suggest that you go back and examine that part of my comment, for that is where the meat of compassion resides. It is not within the thought or idea, but within the action.

 

Lastly, I would rather not continue to argue this point. If you're right, then be satisfied that you're right. I am satisfied that my understanding is valid and deserves further investigation. I am also satisfied that I have explained it sufficiently that most people can grasp what I am talking about. I leave it to them to decide what they believe to be true. I am not here to say, "believe what I tell you or you are wrong" because I am not competing with them, rather sharing my ideas in the hopes it might help them to understand how I understand compassion. I do not have the last word on this topic and I'm certain a hundred years from now people may even come to understand compassion at a greater depth than we do now, but if we believe that what we know now is the end all to the investigation, then we will never have the opportunity to understand it in a deeper context. So my suggestion is rather than tell people they're wrong, you could just tell them what you believe and allow them to accept or not accept it. I would also suggest that you stop attacking other people's character and insulting them when you feel threatened, rather just stand still and allow them to see what you are, so they know you're not a threat to them.

 

Aaron

[三江源]

My suggestion is that members read VMarco's posts as if they are containing something helpful.

 

I would love to see some responses that are making the effort to see what is constructive in VMarco's stance. There is no need to take what is said personally. It is an opportunity to learn something, as everything is.

 

We arent perfect here, are we? We all know there are 'circle jerks' and reactivity and we all have limited understanding. We know this.

 

We can wonder what grain of truth VMarco's posts might be showing us. It might be more helpful to look for the grain of truth than to repudiate.

[Vmarco]

Just so we are clear....i did no trickery. I simply pointed out to the fact that you dont know what karuna means...

 

 

If you truly believe that,...that is, by asking a question you already believed you knew (post #23), because it is part of your native languages (post #53), and that the subsequent non-response of such an elementary question meant that VMarco didn't "know what karuna means..."...then yours and Twinner's posts become much more clearer.

 

"If you wish to unite with the heart and mind of the Mysterious Mother, you must integrate yin and yang within and refine their fire upward."

 

See post #44

Edited April 13, 2012 by Vmarco