Compassion

[thelerner]

"If you wish to unite with the heart and mind of the Mysterious Mother, you must integrate yin and yang within and refine their fire upward."

A quote like this is so full of esoteric terms that its almost useless. How many pages and arguments would it take to explain what the Mysterious Mother is? Are we working with the same cultural definition here? Integrate yin and yang within, are we all on the same page as far as what that means (is it short hand for spend 2 decades in a particular spiritual practice?). 'Refining fire within' do we all agree on what that means and how its done?

 

Its kinda like stacking one fuzzy concept onto another. You may know what you mean, but since you're quoting some dead guy from another time and culture, who wrote it in another language, the understanding of the quote is open to many interpretations.

 

I don't think compassion is all that hard to understand. We don't need to put in on a high philosophical pedestal. In my opinion, like many concepts the best way to understand compassion is through stories and parables. And the best way to show it is action.

Edited April 13, 2012 by thelerner

[Vmarco]

Integrate yin and yang within, are we all on the same page as far as what that means (is it short hand for spend 2 decades in a particular spiritual practice?). 'Refining fire within' do we all agree on what that means and how its done?

 

Its kinda like stacking one fuzzy concept onto another. You may know what you mean, but since you're quoting some dead guy from another time and culture, who wrote it in another language, the understanding of the quote is open to many interpretations.

 

 

That is why post #44 was suggested. No,..."we all" are not on the same page regarding yin and yang,...few understand them relatively,...nearly none understand them absolutely.

 

"Relative and absolute,

These the two truths are declared to be.

The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,

For the intellect is grounded in the relative." Shantideva

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Recognize that eveything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth."

 

Everything you see and think is attached to Form (yang),...thus, seeing and thinking alone, is a barrier to the integration necessary to realize the Tao.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "To embrace all things means also to that one rids oneself of any concept of separation....division is contrary to the nature of the Tao."

 

There is no esoterism here,...there is only the reluctance of yang (Form) to know itself.

 

As for compassion,..it cannot be developed, for it is a quality that is uncovered through our own liberation.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self."

 

No one can awaken all of their self, without understanding the Great Feminine.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20285-sky-dancers/page__p__287298__hl__sky%20dancer__fromsearch__1entry287298

[thelerner]

That is why post #44 was suggested. No,..."we all" are not on the same page regarding yin and yang,...few understand them relatively,...nearly none understand them absolutely.

 

"Relative and absolute,

These the two truths are declared to be.

The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,

For the intellect is grounded in the relative." Shantideva

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Recognize that eveything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth."

 

Everything you see and think is attached to Form (yang),...thus, seeing and thinking alone, is a barrier to the integration necessary to realize the Tao.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "To embrace all things means also to that one rids oneself of any concept of separation....division is contrary to the nature of the Tao."

 

There is no esoterism here,...there is only the reluctance of yang (Form) to know itself.

 

As for compassion,..it cannot be developed, for it is a quality that is uncovered through our own liberation.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self."

 

No one can awaken all of their self, without understanding the Great Feminine.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20285-sky-dancers/page__p__287298__hl__sky%20dancer__fromsearch__1entry287298

okaaaay, yin this, yang that, TTC 3, 7, 9 13, hut hut hike...so what do you think about compassion??

 

How do you practice it?

Edited April 13, 2012 by thelerner

[Ya Mu]

That is why post #44 was suggested. No,..."we all" are not on the same page regarding yin and yang,...few understand them relatively,...nearly none understand them absolutely.

 

"Relative and absolute,

These the two truths are declared to be.

The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,

For the intellect is grounded in the relative." Shantideva

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Recognize that eveything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth."

 

Everything you see and think is attached to Form (yang),...thus, seeing and thinking alone, is a barrier to the integration necessary to realize the Tao.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "To embrace all things means also to that one rids oneself of any concept of separation....division is contrary to the nature of the Tao."

 

There is no esoterism here,...there is only the reluctance of yang (Form) to know itself.

 

As for compassion,..it cannot be developed, for it is a quality that is uncovered through our own liberation.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self."

 

No one can awaken all of their self, without understanding the Great Feminine.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20285-sky-dancers/page__p__287298__hl__sky%20dancer__fromsearch__1entry287298

"...The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,..."

Great quote.

[dwai]

If you truly believe that,...that is, by asking a question you already believed you knew (post #23), because it is part of your native languages (post #53), and that the subsequent non-response of such an elementary question meant that VMarco didn't "know what karuna means..."...then yours and Twinner's posts become much more clearer.

 

"If you wish to unite with the heart and mind of the Mysterious Mother, you must integrate yin and yang within and refine their fire upward."

 

See post #44

 

The problem is that your approach is flawed. Like Lerner pointed out, compassion is not that hard to understand intellectually and it is best shown in action. What bothered me about your posts (and that includes all the ones that I have bothered to read), is that you are besotted with your interpretation of something (most of us are however) and get incensed if someone challenges that (that is the issue). And that's what happened here and out went compassion through the proverbial window and out came the gloves and fists (verbal).

 

It is possible to show compassion to another by changing one's tone (even on the internet)...if pain is the root of compassion (in that no pain, no suffering no need for compassion), then the root of pain is ignorance. A truly compassionate human being would not try and blast their ideas down someone else's throat but would patiently and respectfully listen and truly exchange ideas, and try and make their points without hubris (which I see as a gaping deficiency in your posts). I am loath to involve myself in debates on topics such as these (especially since I saw the raw naked egotism of some of the Buddha bums during the buddha bum flame wars and the effect it was having on myself)...but I felt obligated to point this out on the forum in this instance.

 

I honestly dont care if someone thinks I know something or not...I will say my piece and sometimes defend an intellectual stance, but the fact of the matter remains that what I know will either help improve the quality of my life or not (and there in lies the real test of validity of the beliefs I hold).

 

There is an old story I was told as a kid, where a man walks up to a tree and asks -- "O Tree, what is your name?" The tree responds "Phalena parichiyate" (ie you will know my name by the fruit that i bear). It is up to each one of us to take stock of who/what/where/how we are and the actions we take (and their consequences) will define the who/what/where/how we will be in future.

 

Just regurgitating others' take on compassion without demonstrating ( it should be relatively easy, especially in an internet forum) shows where the trickery was perpetrated and who the perpetrator was...

 

I rest my case.

[Aaron]

That is why post #44 was suggested. No,..."we all" are not on the same page regarding yin and yang,...few understand them relatively,...nearly none understand them absolutely.

 

"Relative and absolute,

These the two truths are declared to be.

The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,

For the intellect is grounded in the relative." Shantideva

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Recognize that eveything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth."

 

Everything you see and think is attached to Form (yang),...thus, seeing and thinking alone, is a barrier to the integration necessary to realize the Tao.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "To embrace all things means also to that one rids oneself of any concept of separation....division is contrary to the nature of the Tao."

 

There is no esoterism here,...there is only the reluctance of yang (Form) to know itself.

 

As for compassion,..it cannot be developed, for it is a quality that is uncovered through our own liberation.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self."

 

No one can awaken all of their self, without understanding the Great Feminine.

 

http://www.thetaobum..._1entry287298

 

Vmarco,

 

Just to clarify, where did you find the quotes you've used for Lao Tzu, because I don't recall ever hearing accepted documentation of Lao Tzu saying any of the above and I would be interested in knowing the source of these particular quotes, because if they're actually from an accepted authentic text, it would appear that Taoism and Buddhism are the same thing. That would settle a lot of the debates on this forum.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that you're trying to ascribe Buddhist terms to Taoist ideas and that really doesn't work, because they are very separate and unique philosophies. In regards to compassion this is even more so, because in Taoism the highest form of compassion does not originate from non-duality (since there is no concept of non-duality in Taoism), but rather from the Tao, or process of Tao. So when we are acting in accord with Tao then compassion will manifest itself on its own.

 

Also including brackets like (form) for yang, doesn't mean that's the context in which it was supposed to be represented. Remember the definition of Yin and Yang change depending on the context their used within. That's one of the issues you might be having, your understanding of Taoism and the terminology isn't sufficient yet, so you're ascribing Buddhist ideology to Taoist ideology, which doesn't really work. The definition of virtue is even different depending on what religion you're ascribing the term to. In fact it's different for Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism, Hunduism, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, so unless you're simply using the generic dictionary definition, you really should point out which specific religion and school of practice you're using to define your term, otherwise it can be very confusing.

 

Aaron

[Vmarco]

okaaaay, yin this, yang that, TTC 3, 7, 9 13, hut hut hike...so what do you think about compassion??

 

How do you practice it?

 

If you understood the 9 sources in the top post, real compassion is not practiced,...it's a natural, organic process.

 

Lao Tzu said, "Who can enjoy enlightenment and remain indifferent to suffering in the world? This is not keeping with the Way?"

 

What is suffering? Suffering is the illusion that things are separate. The illusion that things are separate arises from the 6 senses.

 

V

[Vmarco]

Vmarco,

 

Just to clarify, where did you find the quotes you've used for Lao Tzu, because I don't recall ever hearing accepted documentation of Lao Tzu saying any of the above and I would be interested in knowing the source of these particular quotes, because if they're actually from an accepted authentic text, it would appear that Taoism and Buddhism are the same thing. That would settle a lot of the debates on this forum.

 

Aaron

 

Whether or not you accept the Hua Hu Ching as authentic or not, there are many in Asia who do.

 

If Buddha was pointing to the ultimate source, and Lao Tzu was pointing to the ultimate source, then both must match,...or one or both are wrong.

 

Lao Tzu said, "the Tao doesn't come and go."

 

The Tathagata said, "the Tathagata doesn't come and go."

 

Jesus came and gone, and will be coming back.

 

The Abrahamic god is light (yang) without any dark (yin).

 

Perhaps the 3rd Patriarch could help you:

http://getfile9.posterous.com/getfile/video.posterous.com/temp-2011-04-01/nJuBtmfuCHbeaqtCwEybmukjtBAjbeCkGkjHzvuzGtajBCtneHCsomzpfFmE/3rd_Chinese_Patriarch.mp3

[Vmarco]

 

Also including brackets like (form) for yang, doesn't mean that's the context in which it was supposed to be represented. Remember the definition of Yin and Yang change depending on the context their used within. That's one of the issues you might be having

Aaron

 

No,...that's your issue, stemming from your belief-laiden, relative viewpoint. Yin in a relative sense points to yin in the absolute sense, but few are able to recognize true yin, because of their yang or 6 sense point of view.

 

V

[C T]

I'd like to share a very simple, very real, story which i feel belongs here. Its a story told by a family's vet about a 6-yr old boy and his dog:

 

"Being a veterinarian, i was called to examine a 10-yr old Irish wolfhound named Belker. The dog's owners, husband Ron, his wife Lisa, and their little boy Shane were all very attached to Belker, and they were hoping for a miracle.

 

I examined Belker and found he was dying of cancer. I told the family we could not do anything for Belker, and offered to euthanize the dog in their own home.

 

As we made arrangements, Ron and Lisa told me they thought it would be good for Shane to observe the procedure. They felt as though Shane might learn something from the experience.

 

The next day, I felt the familiar catch in my throat as Belker's family surrounded him. Shane seemed so calm, petting the old fellow for the last time that i wondered if he understood what was going on. Within a few minutes, Belker slipped peacefully away.

 

The little boy seemed to accept Belker's transition without much difficulty or confusion. We sat together for a while after Belker's passing, wondering aloud about the sad fact that almost all animal lives are shorter than human lives. Shane, who had been listening quietly,. piped up, "I know why."

 

Startled, we all turned to him. What came out of his mouth next stunned me. I'd never heard a more comforting explanation. It has changed the way I live.

 

He said, "People are born so that they can learn how to live a good life -- like loving everybody all the time and being nice, right?"

 

Continuing, he said, "Well, dogs already knew how to do that when they're born, so they don't have to stay as long..."

 

Live simply.

 

Love generously.

 

Care deeply.

 

Speak kindly.

 

 

 

Remember, if a dog was the teacher, we would learn things like:

 

When loved ones come home, always run to greet them!

 

Never pass up the opportunity to go for a joyride.

 

Allow the experience of fresh air and the wind in your face to be pure ecstasy.

 

Take naps. Stretch before rising.

 

Run, romp, and play daily.

 

Thrive on attention and let people touch you.

 

Avoid biting when a simple growl will do.

 

On warm days, stop to lie on your back in the grass.

 

On hot days, drink plenty of water and find shady places to sit under.

 

When you're happy, dance around and wag your entire body!

 

Delight in the simple joy of a long walk.

 

Be loyal.

 

Never pretend to be something you're not.

 

If what you want lies buried, dig until you find it.

 

When someone is having a bad day, sit close by, be silent, and nuzzle them gently.

 

ENJOY EVERY MOMENT OF EVERY DAY!!

 

http://www.digitalsparkmarketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/SHANE.png

 

 

Thanks for smiling...

Edited April 13, 2012 by C T

[Aaron]

Whether or not you accept the Hua Hu Ching as authentic or not, there are many in Asia who do.

 

If Buddha was pointing to the ultimate source, and Lao Tzu was pointing to the ultimate source, then both must match,...or one or both are wrong.

 

Lao Tzu said, "the Tao doesn't come and go."

 

The Tathagata said, "the Tathagata doesn't come and go."

 

Jesus came and gone, and will be coming back.

 

The Abrahamic god is light (yang) without any dark (yin).

 

Perhaps the 3rd Patriarch could help you:

http://getfile9.post...e_Patriarch.mp3

 

Actually the vast majority of Taoists do not accept the Hua Hu Ching as authentic. The people that do claim it's authenticity are most often practicing Buddhists that want to harmonize Taoism and Buddhism, these same Buddhists claim that once Lao Tzu left China, he went to India to teach the Buddha or become the Buddha, depending on who you talk to. The vast majority of academics and scholars realize the Hua Hu Ching was written far too late to be authentic, especially without any previous text to support it's authenticity.

 

Also the similarities in the quotes would lead me to be suspicious of it. However if it helps you to better understand your own belief system, then by all means, I urge you to continue to study it. I'm just stating the factual evidence regarding the text. I have no problem with you quoting the text, but I do feel it's irresponsible to attribute these quotes to Lao Tzu without also noting that he most likely never said that and there is no actual evidence to attribute the text to Lao Tzu or even to the time that Lao Tzu was purported to live.

 

Aaron

Edited April 13, 2012 by Twinner

[Aaron]

No,...that's your issue, stemming from your belief-laiden, relative viewpoint. Yin in a relative sense points to yin in the absolute sense, but few are able to recognize true yin, because of their yang or 6 sense point of view.

 

V

 

This is your own perceived notion based on your understanding and isn't the general view of yang. You have tried to attribute Buddhist qualities to it, so you have taken it out of context. Yang and Yin are neither form and except for you mentioning it just now, I've never heard of anyone ascribing form to yin or yang, since they are actually just the opposing aspects of forces. Form is not a force, so I would not ascribe that notion to Yang or Yin, it's like saying blankets and pillows are yin and yang, or C T and Dwai are Yin and Yang, it just doesn't make sense to ascribe physical things as such.

 

Aaron

Edited April 13, 2012 by Twinner

[thelerner]

If you understood the 9 sources in the top post, real compassion is not practiced,...it's a natural, organic process.

 

Lao Tzu said, "Who can enjoy enlightenment and remain indifferent to suffering in the world? This is not keeping with the Way?"

 

What is suffering? Suffering is the illusion that things are separate. The illusion that things are separate arises from the 6 senses.

I still have no concept of how you deal with compassion. From your first sentence are you considering it a taoist concept like 'Te'?

 

Maybe changing the term; how do you deal with the sufferings of others? Do you ignore it, tell them to ignore it, philosophize it, tell them when they're enlightened it will go away?

 

What about two examples, a 6 year old running past you skins his knee. A ragged man with an empty Starbucks cup asks you for money? What do you do?

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

I still have no concept of how you deal with compassion. From your first sentence are you considering it a taoist concept like 'Te'?

 

Maybe changing the term; how do you deal with the sufferings of others? Do you ignore it, tell them to ignore it, philosophize it, tell them when they're enlightened it will go away?

 

What about two examples, a 6 year old running past you skins his knee. A ragged man with an empty Starbucks cup asks you for money? What do you do?

 

Post #84 was an adequate response,...but you do not desire to see it.

 

Lao Tzu said, "To attain pure Tao you must understand and integrate within yourself the three main energies of the universe"

 

This has been discussed many times within TTB,...ie.,

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22831-intuition/page__p__325959__hl__barycenter__fromsearch__1entry325959

 

However, you are like Paul of Tarsus, so fearful of gnosis (Heart-mind) that you advocate your own cerbral-centric philosophy based on scratched kneed boys and today's begger class,...and declare war on all gnosis, because to you, the Heart-mind is a figment of the cerebral-mind.

 

In fact, who here in this thread, or TTB as a whole, are interested in understanding and integrating what the Tao points to?

 

Have a wonderful weekend.

[Seth Ananda]

 

You (Twinner) are fully negative in heart, and are predominately concerned with attacking all that disagrees with your beliefs.

 

Vmarco, you have some interesting things to say, but when you talk like this you come off like an Idiot.

 

Saying Twinner is fully negative in heart is an incorrect and absolute statement. Your only experience with twinner is of him arguing or disagreeing with you. How can you know from that small portion of twinners time and existence, that he is fully negative in heart?

 

The correct answer, in case you are in a mood to argue or get defensive, is that you can not know that about him, and pretending that you can is dishonest and serves know one. If you wanted to prove that his heart was fully negative, you would have to interview all his friends, and follow him around for quite a while. Why would you need to be so personal and attacking in your disagreement?

I have seen twinner on this board, be quite friendly, empathic and supportive to individuals. That does not suggest a fully negative heart...

 

You should really think about how you sound half the time. You go on about listening to the messenger and not attacking him, well maybe if the messenger was capable of being even slightly inspiring, of having the capacities for honest conversation and self reflection, then people would listen.

But what do we get?

Vmarco, severly reacts when people dissagree with him or his theorys. He starts calling them ignorant, and saying that they are dishonest, and have fully negative hearts...

 

Vmarco does just fine with the few who agree or who don't critique his theory's, but where is the surprise there? That's every mundane person in the world.

 

Vmarco has big big claims to the truth. He is one of the only ones to really understand Buddhism, Gurdjief, ACIM, Gnostics... [do i sense a trend? a need to be right?] And he is the champion or herald of undivided light.

 

But here is the dilemma: If you understand Undivided Light so well, then where is the character transformation. Why is your ego so fragile, so defensive and ready to attack in nasty and personal ways?

You dont come across as a person who has anything of value, that anyone would want, apart from some interesting ideas, which have done nothing of note for you personally.

 

Maybe people should pay more attention to the messenger. If the messenger has a lot of talk, but no congruence between what he says and what he does, then maybe that is saying something about the quality of the message, and its inability to effect change...

 

I was quite interested in some aspects of your thought, but you turned me off. If you are the end result of your thought, then at the moment I am just not interested.

[steve]

I don't know what compassion is... but I do feel it

[Protector]

I don't know what compassion is... but I do feel it

Isn't it delicious

[thelerner]

Post #84 was an adequate response,...but you do not desire to see it.

 

Lao Tzu said, "To attain pure Tao you must understand and integrate within yourself the three main energies of the universe"

 

This has been discussed many times within TTB,...ie.,

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22831-intuition/page__p__325959__hl__barycenter__fromsearch__1entry325959

 

However, you are like Paul of Tarsus, so fearful of gnosis (Heart-mind) that you advocate your own cerbral-centric philosophy based on scratched kneed boys and today's begger class,...and declare war on all gnosis, because to you, the Heart-mind is a figment of the cerebral-mind.

 

In fact, who here in this thread, or TTB as a whole, are interested in understanding and integrating what the Tao points to?

 

Have a wonderful weekend.

Why thank you I've never been compared to Paul before. He had his bad points (lots of 'em) but I admire his writings on love. Are most people who disagree with you biblical bad guys and have closed hearts? I bet you see it that way. That is one of your problems.

 

I asked you how you'd react to a hurt child or person in need because I wondered about your heart. Its not cerebral centric to comfort a hurt child or give to those in need. Most often its a good thing, a love thing, heart centric.

 

I think most people on this Taoist site are interested in what the Tao points to, it is after all The Tao bums. You may not be the Taoist teacher and/or explainer that we're looking for. You tend to come off as a young angry preacher who insults those who disagree with them.

 

 

 

I'm getting off subject. Let me quote a famous guy here:

 

"Buddhism is based on karuna, which means compassion. The practice of compassion is the most important basic practice. One develops compassion through one's own experience and through realizing that no other beings, not just human beings, want suffering. Through this realization, one can generate love and compassion. But first there has to be the realization of one's own level of suffering. There are pains that everyone agrees is suffering.

 

..All sentient beings-particularly human beings but also all animals and insects- appreciate affection, compassion an love. By identifying with others, one develops love and compassion.

 

..Through daily experience, one sees that compassion not only helps other sentient beings, but helps oneself, because through compassion and a warmhearted mental attitude- one gets more reliable friends, more smiles, even fame. If one shows other people a warm heart and genuine attitude, then they generally respond in kind."

 

Who said it?? A hint, its on page 125 of Tying Rocks to Clouds by William Elliot.

[Aaron]

Spoken like an arrogant, cerebral-centric American who gets his information from wiki. Actually,...you are incorrect. Perhaps the vast majority of wanne-be Taoist Westerners do not except the Hua Hu Ching, including their Western academics,...but that's you problem.

 

I would like you to cite your sources regarding this. I can dig mine up, but the fact is Wiki actually does a great job of citing sources to support my statements. I'm not sure what people have against wiki, except it allows the common joe to learn about a topic with relative ease. In the end you're been grossly mislead regarding the Hua Hu Ching.

 

One of your Chief Features, like so many other cerebral-centric people, is that you focus on messengers, instead of the message. You (Twinner) are fully negative in heart, and are predominately concerned with attacking all that disagrees with your beliefs.

 

 

"It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong."

-Thomas Jefferson

 

Have you even read any of my posts? I'm the last one focused on the messenger. I have consistently urged people to look for answers within, rather than through books and messiahs. I believe that each of us can attain awareness of our true nature without having to study under a master or follow religious or philosophical dogma. I have studied Taoism, obviously much more than you have, so if it upsets you that I correct your misinterpretations and extrapolations, that's on you, not me. I would suggest that much of this is projection, because I am certain that there are people on this board that might consider the above statements to be characteristics of you (and if I took the time I could probably pull a few other member's posts that have said the same thing.)

 

You're intelligent and a bit insidious in your style of debate, I'll give you that. First you make your point, when your point is threatened you insult the other person's character or intelligence... you seem to like to use the word ignorant a lot. Here's something you might find interesting, in Taoism the ignorant man is held in higher esteem than the knowledgeable, for they will be more open to the ideas of Tao, since they have not been corrupted by knowledge and academia. Lao Tzu would tell you, "be done with books, look within, that's where the answer to your questions reside."

 

You can go ahead and get the last word,...many would say that I should have never responded to question on compassion to begin with,...however, I appreciate the dialogue with fully ignorant people like yourself. Yes, it goes against Taoism and Buddhism because your negativity is devoid of any spirituality or breath,...but there is such an interest in observing the terrible suffering you endure, and don't even recognize it.

 

Of course you have no idea what is being shared here,...so may you enjoy the intelligence of you dualistic delusion where love and compassion have opposites, and you can "ultimately break it down to what I believe is part of the original nature of man."

V

 

Again, the above comments show me the depth of your character. Jabs and cuts at my character and intellect, all because I have shown that you don't know what you're talking about. You would be best to ignore me, because regarding the topics of enlightenment, compassion, and especially Taoism, I have a far greater understanding than you apparently do. You have studied books and read a great deal, but I get the feeling that is the extent of your practice. Your intense bigotry of other religions (should we forget your attacks on Christianity?) Not to mention your intolerance of anyone who views things differently from your own "right" view, brings this out in stereo.

 

You have no practical understanding of Taoism or compassion. You have an intellectual understanding, but no experience whatsoever. So keep up the petty personal attacks, it just allows people deeper insight into your nature. At least, if nothing else, it helps people to see exactly how much you understand about the topic(s) at hand. Oh, and thank you kindly for the last word.

 

Aaron

[Vmarco]

Vmarco, you have some interesting things to say, but when you talk like this you come off like an Idiot.

 

Saying Twinner is fully negative in heart is an incorrect and absolute statement. Your only experience with twinner is of him arguing or disagreeing with you. How can you know from that small portion of twinners time and existence, that he is fully negative in heart?

 

 

Twinner is a typical cerebral person, and as all cerebral persons, is negative in heart,...that is to say, their Heart center and Heart-Mind is blocked through the clinging to their 6 senses for their identity,...or one could say, he is (as clearly shown in nearly a years worth of lengthy TTB dialogues), a 100% sentient being who has not has not had a taste of reality.

 

Yes,...Twinner's M.O. is to selfishly argue, debase, ridicule, etc.,...yet it is ridiculous to speculate that there is some sort of defensiveness nor offensiveness on my part. If I felt Twinner to be an irritant, then I would examine why I felt such irritation, or had an emotional charge of some sort, as you obviously do.

 

VMarco enjoys dialoguing on messages,...however, for the most part,...to dialogue on messages at TTB is takes extraordinary effort getting past other's ad homenem. For example, this thread. The top post (posted in response to a question from Twinner asking for non-traditional source information about compassion) has hardly been addressed. Cat had it correct in post #76,..."It might be more helpful to look for the grain of truth than to repudiate."

 

Overall, VMarco purposefully attempts to NOT express personal theories,...personal theories are pretty much always false,..so why engage in something that is probably false. Descartes said the senses are liars,...so why trust the senses?

 

If VMarco offers something as a "truth", it is ALWAYS offered in the context of "can you prove it not true?" Thus, one of the most frequent attacks following my posts is from those with whom the suggestion of a truth devisively upsets,...and as they cannot disprove it, they attack,...just as you are doing here.

 

If Seth Ananda went back and reviewed all posts of his responses to VMarco's, the majority are attacks, not on the message, but against VMarco. Seth Ananda get an emotional charge from VMarco's posts, and obviously feels compelled to back the other attackers, just as bullies support other bullies.

 

So, here we are again,...a thread on compassion, and your two hundred and some word post contains no comments on compassion, let alone the 9 sources of the top post.

 

If Seth Ananda went back and reviewed all posts of his in response to VMarco's, one would observe no Heart radiating from Seth Ananda,...just cerebral-centric fear. VMarco is responding to Seth Ananda's post here, out of compassion for the suffering Seth Ananda is reflecting in his post, and concern for his medocrity.

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22509-how-attached-to-your-ideas-are-you/page__st__32__p__322794__hl__mediocrity__fromsearch__1entry322794

 

Someday Seth Ananda, perhaps you'll realize that truth upsets peoples logic. And as people don't want to hear that what they thought was meaningful, may be meaningless, they tend to react in a way to kill such messages. Perhaps instead of attacking truth, you'll attack your ego for attacking,...which isn't the best way to go, but at least it would be a start.

 

For example,...who are the most hated people in America? Atheists! Was recently reading:

One study last year asked participants whether a fictional hit-and-run driver was more likely to be an atheist or a rapist. A majority chose atheist. In 2006, another study found that Americans rated atheists as less likely to agree with their vision of America than Muslims, Hispanics, or homosexuals.

 

People like that are negative in heart. It takes a deep honesty to inquire about the heart,...and such an inquiry leads to the realization that the Heart cannot be accessed, except by letting go of the barriers (ie, emotional charges) built against it.

 

Keep in mind, that the term "emotional charge" has nothing to do with real emotion. Emotional charges arises from cerebral ignorance.

 

Of course it is realized you don't want to hear any of this,..but it may be helpful for those more serious about their practice.

 

V

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

[Aaron]

People like yourself have a bizarre notion that Wiki, or the internet, contains all the facts. Wiki contains the opinions of the wiki programmers. If you want the facts, go to a university library. If you are writing a non-fiction historical book, and solely using the internet, you'd be lucky to get it 10% right.

 

Unlike Twinner, VMarco does not discount something like the 1600 year old Hua Hu Ching, purportedly based on a collection of sayings of Lao Tzu, because academics connot date it before the 5th century.

 

You are like the shallow, media-ted Americans who dissed Scott Ritter because the Bush administration slandered his credibility, and thus supported the illegal invasion of Iraq.

 

Of course, VMarco doesn't know what she is talking about. Yes,...VMarco got the message long ago,...and thus threads begin like this one,...with quotes from others,...yet, right in post two, the attacks begin.

 

VMarco's use of the word ignorant, as you should fully know, as it's been repeated numerous times, is used in the Buddhist sense. In the Taoist sense, as you suggest,...if ignorance is higher than knowledge, than you are certainly the latter. It is the point being stressed over and over,...

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Intellectual knowledge exists in and of the brain. Because the brain is part of the body, which must one day expire, this collection of facts, however large and impressive, will expire as well"

Twinner, as shown in his posts, is into the accumulation of knowledge,...VMarco, as shown in her posts, is into letting go all knowledge.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "In pursuit of knowledge, every day something is acquired. In pursuit of wisdom, every day something is dropped."

 

Twinner, as Twinner recently said, is only interested in "breaking it down to what I believe is part of the original nature of man." VMarco is only interested in the truth,...belief is always a lie. If a belief were true, it would not be a belief.

 

V

 

Lost the argument, attack person's character, attack person's intelligence, pat self on back for being so witty and bright, add a smattering of quotes (mostly out of context)... does this sound familiar. It's like a broken record. Honestly, why do you even bother continuing if you know you've already lost? If I didn't know better I'd say you were a masochist.

 

Aaron

 

 

[thelerner]

Post #84 was an adequate response,...but you do not desire to see it.

 

 

 

However, you are like Paul of Tarsus, so fearful of gnosis (Heart-mind) that you advocate your own cerbral-centric philosophy based on scratched kneed boys and today's begger class,...and declare war on all gnosis, because to you, the Heart-mind is a figment of the cerebral-mind.

 

In fact, who here in this thread, or TTB as a whole, are interested in understanding and integrating what the Tao points to?

Hmnn, wait a second, if in your mind I'm Paul of Tarsus, then who are you?? Probably not Jesus..hmnn, I got it, you think of yourself as James the Just poor slandered martyr.

 

Maybe you have ten times more spirituality then me, maybe a billion times, but still, you show immaturity. A site like this should be your playing ground to discuss ideas, learn and connect with people who are interesting in Taoism and philosophy. Instead you alienate people. Your insights are lost because you present them in an angry fundamentalist package and insult anyone who disagrees with you.

 

This thread started off with Twinner complimenting you on your insight, yet you immediately get into a condescending mode, personally insulting him repeatedly and most other individuals who are writing on a 'Compassion' thread!

 

Even if you consider Vmarco above petty concerns of others, its a problem Vmarco needs to work on because Vmarco will be dealing with others, illusions or not, for his whole life.

 

 

Speaking of spiritual immaturity, the New Avatar series is on, 70 years after the first series ended. Gotta catch it.

 

Michael