Thunder_Gooch

Recently I got to speak with an enlightened master and ask what enlightenment is.

164 posts in this topic

How about: Your fate is already decided and you bear full responsibility for your actions.

 

 

How can you see stuff in your dreams when you are unconscious?

 

If I have no control over my actions and I am destined to do whatever it is that I am supposed to do why would I be responsible for the act that I have no control over, and who would hold me responsible?

 

The dreams are not mine as told by the sage in the op; I am in one of the dreams of nothingness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See fate more as something that is predetermined, that is already there, but your physical being, with your mind, you are obeying the flow of time, so you don't see this. You are still part of the the whole creation. How can you not be responsible for something that is your own creation? Responsibility is a bit of a limited idea here.

 

Look at it like a movie: You buy the movie, and it is already complete. It has been played out to its end and recorded. But still, while you are watching it, the actors acted, although it was all predetermined. Now would an actor deny any responsibility for his participation in that movie just because he followed a script?

 

Relatively lame comparison, but it's difficult to catch the essence with the mind.

If you decide to act totally irresponsibly based on the idea that everything is predetermined, then that will be predetermined. If you decide to act responsibly, that, too, will be predetermined. But that doesn't mean it has happened already. Happening is something that only exists in the realm of time.

 

I guess the point is: Enjoy your illusion of freedom of choice. It is totally valid, because it is embedded in an environment that is an illusion, too.

 

You know, applying my ayahuasca experience to your idea, it was like when you start having the idea that you don't choose your actions freely, the universe will continually slap you in the face until you start believing you do. The mind is designed for a limited purpose, and trying to apply foreign concepts to it is not skillful for ordinary life I guess.

 

Maybe 'enlightenment' comes naturally when you use the tools given to you for their intended purpose. Life is for living. Do your best with that. If there's other stuff after life, you'll be given proper tools for that, and those then define how to act.

Edited by Owledge

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had a car full of people pull up to my front door of my work place, blasting bob Marley, and screaming at the top of their lungs:

 

"Don't worry about a thing,

'Cause every little thing gonna be all right.

Singin': "Don't worry about a thing,

'Cause every little thing gonna be all right!"

 

Totally not making this up, I am serious.

 

Whatever is is, don't sweat it.

3 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I have no control over my actions and I am destined to do whatever it is that I am supposed to do why would I be responsible for the act that I have no control over, and who would hold me responsible?

 

The dreams are not mine as told by the sage in the op; I am in one of the dreams of nothingness.

 

I don't think he was saying you have no control over your actions so much as the world your actions occurs in is a dream.

 

What I got out my talks with him, is that when you wake up, you are aware you are in a dream, and the person you were was a dream character. The awareness of your experience remains as it always did, Just as you are now.

 

You aren't a physical body but rather the experience of a physical body, the thing observing this experience isn't going to die even if your dream character does.

 

 

But this is only in the context of some guy on the Internet I met who claims to be enlightened.

 

For all I know he could be the absolute ultimate troll on the Internet.

 

 

I just liked what he had to say, it interests me deeply, and it fascinates me.

 

Don't lose sleep over it, I subscribe to a more energetic notion of enlightenment than I do a nondual notion.

 

I just think these are some cool ideas to think about and entertain.

Edited by More_Pie_Guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was under the impression this was a Wrong View in Buddhism! Is this incorrect?

 

It probably is a wrong view, I am just going off what he told me. He said we came here to be deluded and enjoy it, and seeking enlightenment was the most pointless thing a person could do. I assume this only applies to nondual definitions of enlightenment, there are other definitions that may not apply, such as energetic enlightenment.

 

I don't know I am not enlightened, just found this guy interesting.

Edited by More_Pie_Guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think he was saying you have no control over your actions so much as the world your actions occurs in is a dream.

 

What I got out my talks with him, is that when you wake up, you are aware you are in a dream, and the person you were was a dream character. The awareness of your experience remains as it always did, Just as you are now.

 

You aren't a physical body but rather the experience of a physical body, the thing observing this experience isn't going to die even if your dream character does.

 

 

But this is only in the context of some guy on the Internet I met who claims to be enlightened.

 

For all I know he could be the absolute ultimate troll on the Internet.

 

 

I just liked what he had to say, it interests me deeply, and it fascinates me.

 

Don't lose sleep over it, I subscribe to a more energetic notion of enlightenment than I do a nondual notion.

 

I just think these are some cool ideas to think about and entertain.

 

His ideas make more sense to me when out that way than they did in the op. thanks for being patient with me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, if what happens isn't up to us, and whatever is already is, why do we bother searching, investigating, or seeking? Why even bother working to lesson suffering?

 

If this is actually the case, I should just sit around eating chocolate and watching tv, reading, and playing video games because, if that is the truth, I bear no responsibility for my actions and my fate is already decided.

 

why we practice is because it generates its own rewards. Clarity, peace of mind, energy, etc.

 

why did you think we did it?

 

btw you are responsible for your own actions regardless of how you choose to interpret the mystical teachings. Don't say nobody ever told you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about: Your fate is already decided and you bear full responsibility for your actions.

 

how about: your fate is decided BY your actions lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Non-existence or existence, both are just an awareness of an arrangement of light misconstrued as such a state. You are not a lion, as far as you can tell, you are a human. So your awareness identifies with what you are conscious of, that of 'being human'. But really, what does that entail? What is a human? Being is always becoming, and impermanence is inevitable. What would make non-existence exempt from this rule? It, too, is a concept born from an impermanent mind. But what is it that this impermanent mind rests upon, always?

 

We cannot be seperated from this hard light, but we can soften our view. These dreams are a radiant life, incarnate... a living aesop fable. Within this fey and impossible world, dreams are reality. Our thoughts echo on planes unseen and these ripples are themselves beings, just like you or I. A mind within a mind within a mind, never seperate from the source for even a second!

 

So, what of this self-imposed exile? Empty is the universe, it is full to the brim with hidden potential.

 

beautiful words fu yue, i would give you plus 5 if i could

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why we practice is because it generates its own rewards. Clarity, peace of mind, energy, etc.

 

why did you think we did it?

 

btw you are responsible for your own actions regardless of how you choose to interpret the mystical teachings. Don't say nobody ever told you.

 

My questions are in reference to the op. and are not statements of my personal beliefs.

 

Know what is not in order to know what is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Non-existence or existence, both are just an awareness of an arrangement of light misconstrued as such a state. You are not a lion, as far as you can tell, you are a human. So your awareness identifies with what you are conscious of, that of 'being human'. But really, what does that entail? What is a human? Being is always becoming, and impermanence is inevitable. What would make non-existence exempt from this rule? It, too, is a concept born from an impermanent mind. But what is it that this impermanent mind rests upon, always?

 

We cannot be seperated from this hard light, but we can soften our view. These dreams are a radiant life, incarnate... a living aesop fable. Within this fey and impossible world, dreams are reality. Our thoughts echo on planes unseen and these ripples are themselves beings, just like you or I. A mind within a mind within a mind, never seperate from the source for even a second!

 

So, what of this self-imposed exile? Empty is the universe, it is full to the brim with hidden potential.

 

Do you believe that matter exists or is there just light playing on a screen as Yogananda describes?

 

How did I become conscious of being human if I am not human or my Self was not given to a human body?

 

How could non-existence be aware of its non-existence? If non-existence has a Self capable of concupiousness, wouldn't it cease being non-existent?

 

If this is "a living Aesop fable," who is dreaming this exchange? You or I, or is it one of the other posters, or all of us? If more than one, how are we having the same dream?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My questions are in reference to the op. and are not statements of my personal beliefs.

Know what is not in order to know what is.

 

gotcha :) sorry for the confusion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you believe that matter exists or is there just light playing on a screen as Yogananda describes?

 

How did I become conscious of being human if I am not human or my Self was not given to a human body?

 

How could non-existence be aware of its non-existence? If non-existence has a Self capable of concupiousness, wouldn't it cease being non-existent?

 

If this is "a living Aesop fable," who is dreaming this exchange? You or I, or is it one of the other posters, or all of us? If more than one, how are we having the same dream?

 

I don't believe.

 

I know that, at this very moment, there is an awareness of a full spectrum of 'light', whatever that is, congealing into an 'essence' that suggests something we collectively label a word called humanity.

 

I see that all of it is inseparable.

 

Everything after that is hearsay.

 

A concept such as 'existence' or 'non-existence' has no reality. That's just an assumption. Make-believe. Right here and now there is a consciousness that is aware of itself. Everything else is a symbol of that ancient knowing.

 

No screen, no projector, just a space with no beginning or end - clear all the way through, a brilliant display that unfolds into ever more bountiful freedom.

 

Man is a symbol. All this world is a symbol, all of the phenomena signposts pointing to a jewel within a lotus.

 

I can't tell you what it symbolizes because you are it. I can't show you the truth because you are currently in the process of knowing that truth right down to the core.

 

It's easy for a dream to dream of itself when every single thing that can ever be conceived of is a quirky self-reference to it's own nature. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like the other guy said, "it ain't the destination, but it sure helps get you closer".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't believe.

 

I know that, at this very moment, there is an awareness of a full spectrum of 'light', whatever that is, congealing into an 'essence' that suggests something we collectively label a word called humanity.

 

I see that all of it is inseparable.

 

Everything after that is hearsay.

 

A concept such as 'existence' or 'non-existence' has no reality. That's just an assumption. Make-believe. Right here and now there is a consciousness that is aware of itself. Everything else is a symbol of that ancient knowing.

 

No screen, no projector, just a space with no beginning or end - clear all the way through, a brilliant display that unfolds into ever more bountiful freedom.

 

Man is a symbol. All this world is a symbol, all of the phenomena signposts pointing to a jewel within a lotus.

 

I can't tell you what it symbolizes because you are it. I can't show you the truth because you are currently in the process of knowing that truth right down to the core.

 

It's easy for a dream to dream of itself when every single thing that can ever be conceived of is a quirky self-reference to it's own nature. :lol:

 

Thanks for your answers to my numerous questions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO I do not agree with some of these things about emptiness.

 

Emptiness is definitely a form of practice, without this practice one can never achieve enlightenment.

Objects are born from nothing, same as the universe was first born from nothing.

Emptiness is awareness, for one then is deeply aware of all things.

Emptiness has form and substance; one can therefore understand it and then the true nature of all things.

 

Indeed, my experiences of "It" mimic all of your point except your last statement. Saying emptiness has form and substance in the traditonal view of the words is not wrong but i don't thinks it absolutely right either. I would just say it is a kind of formless form. ^_^

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This "teacher" is exceptionally stupid. He's not enlightened at all. Be very careful with this guy. He'll intensify your delusion rather than clear it up for you. Replacing "something" delusion with "nothing" delusion is a fool's game. He's not showing you how to investigate matters. Instead he's putting his foolish thoughts into your mind (because you allow it).

 

Please don't drag down the level of discussion by calling people stupid and foolish. From the few isolated quotes reproduced here, second-hand and paraphrased, it is difficult to say a whole lot about the matter. However, it does seem to appear from the quotations that the teacher is describing a method of cultivating emptiness, and some of his statements are definitely similar to methods in the Avatamsaka Sutra. He does not appear to be advocating that people adopt a "notion of nothingness."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Enlightenment before being born means before you were ever "born", whether from an egg, a womb, dampness, etc.

 

It was the very first time you received any type of form and discriminative consciousness. It doesn't mean before you were born into this life.

 

Emptiness and enlightenment... both don't even exists, nor not exist. When the concepts are finished being used to guide the concentration, then they must be put down. Enlightenment to exist, means that it can be produced, and then destroyed. Attainment also isn't true; just for the sake of saying true and a false. Realization would be a better word.

 

There is the 1 and there is the 0. Both are constructs to point to both Interdependence and Emptiness. Stick to Interdependence, the 1. Its safer to do so , only because the "idea" of Emptiness, the 0, causes one to think that whatever they do, doesn't matter at all, and that there is annihilation of things.

 

In truth, just because the Yin and Yang of reality, only the relative reality, tells us so, everything will manifest everything...every cause makes an outcome and every outcome is a cause. No matter how many times qi runs up the spine, and no matter how clear and bright eyed you feel/become, you still will have to deal with the outcomes of past causes. To actually eradicate the "bad" karma, is to simply do the opposite of it...plant good causes by doing good things. That could mean doing a variety of practices, but simply practicing Qigong will not do it. Adjustment of one's views, habits and speech will.

2 people thank this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please don't drag down the level of discussion by calling people stupid and foolish. From the few isolated quotes reproduced here, second-hand and paraphrased, it is difficult to say a whole lot about the matter. However, it does seem to appear from the quotations that the teacher is describing a method of cultivating emptiness, and some of his statements are definitely similar to methods in the Avatamsaka Sutra. He does not appear to be advocating that people adopt a "notion of nothingness."

 

 

I got the same feeling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got the same feeling.

 

Lin xiansheng, you're back!

Hope your cultivation and teaching is going well. Nice to see your presence again.

 

Namo Amitofo!

Mandrake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lin xiansheng, you're back!

Hope your cultivation and teaching is going well. Nice to see your presence again.

 

Namo Amitofo!

Mandrake

 

 

:-) It has been a few years. I hope all is well with you...?

 

Amituofo!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's in my opinion that anyone who claims enlightenment is missing the fact that "you" don't become enlightened ever. So anyone who says that "I am enlightened" is not enlightened. Saying "I am enlightened" is not only arrogant by claiming some sort of superiority and even inferring it, it is simply not how it works or how it is ever described. Awakened is not equivalent to enlightenment, although to a common untrained observer, they would not know the difference between awakening and enlightenment because enlightenment is beyond preponderance until after awakening. Everything that I have seen and read seems to say that there is not something separate from the universe to be something other than the universe.

 

If a Buddha teach there is not a "self" then a self cannot be enlightened.

Buddha teaches there is not a self.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore a self can not be enlightened.

Edited by Informer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:-) It has been a few years. I hope all is well with you...?

 

Amituofo!

 

All is well, lots of fruition in my practice. I hope to be able to visit you and learn some Wing Chun from you in the not too distant future.

 

My warmest regards

Mandrake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All is well, lots of fruition in my practice. I hope to be able to visit you and learn some Wing Chun from you in the not too distant future.

 

My warmest regards

Mandrake

 

 

Very good to hear! Wish you the best in cultivation.

 

As for Wing Chun, very cool! You know I left my Wing Chun teacher, resigned from his line, under him, due to lots of double-talk and behind the back problems he brought. So I do not claim his lineage, and though the manner of what is taught is similar, I did change much of the practice formats for the form and "re-disigned" the forms for more internal cultivation, as well as application.

 

You can check my updates on the website:

www.wix.com/jingxintang/jingxinyuan?ref=nf#!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites