............

[Jetsun]

If you think of the flow of life like a river your ego patterns are going to cause friction or resistance to that flow, the result of which is suffering, as the flow of life will always win no matter how hard we fight with our ego, therefore suffering can be that signpost and motivator to change and let go of our ego patterns in order to become more harmonious, so you can battle and stress against the river or let go and accept the flow. The further we stray away from the Tao the more we will suffer, so suffering is the essential component which brings us back into balance.

 

In the Fourth Way system they say not only is suffering required for growth but intentional suffering is required, not masochism but rather you have to intensify all your inner contradictions and patterns in order for the suffering they cause you to become more conscious so you can let them go when you see clearly how they don't serve you.

[Owledge]

[Marblehead]

Sometimes I am a pain in the butt. Does that count for anything?

[Ya Mu]

Sometimes I am a pain in the butt. Does that count for anything?

Well, at least we know you are alive. Hiya.

[Ya Mu]

Aaron,

 

Some important questions needs to be answered (by you) in order to establish a baseline for discussion --

 

a) do you accept that there is subtle energy flowing in our bodies that is called Qi/Ki/Prana?

b ) do you accept that there is a subtle network of channels through which is energy flows?

 

If you don't accept the above two, and in fact believe in the contrary, there is no point in continuing discussions. To be able to have a conversation on efficacy of Qi treatment, it is important to have a common ground. If that common ground is that you are a total skeptic then I'm afraid no amount of debate/discussion is going to change your mind. In fact, my experience with skeptics is that they are too closed to exploring other ideas and even experiential evidence is "rationalized" away...

It still is a mystery to me why "double blind scientific" holds more weight that history of use and experiential evidence. IMO in part, concerning medicine, a purely deceptive thing borne from "Your Doctor is always right" "Scientific method is King" that was shoved down our throats growing up (at least in my generation) and from an intense arrogance from the West concerning Chinese Medicine. In western medicine this has been proven to be false through the history of use failures.

[Birch]

I hasz a question!

This idea of 'mirror/projection' does seem to get thrown around a LOT. If I get really annoyed when I see someone else talking at/with someone in a way that I find has a disagreable vibe, does that mean I also have the same problem as the person being "mirrored"?

 

It's from what I understand, a common 'spiritual pitfall'.

What about the whole "5E" application? Can't recall off bat, but something like anger(wood) is controlled/quited by earth (which I can't recall)?

 

Of course one can be mistaken and fixate upon one's position, but the 'look how I handled that mistaken person' just smacks of arrogance to me.

 

I almost didn't post this because I felt I'd get flak for doing so. Interesting huh?

[Owledge]

No, Kate, I think it's valuable to add those views to the discussion in order to create awareness and encourage self-reflection.

 

What about the whole "5E" application? Can't recall off bat, but something like anger(wood) is controlled/quited by earth (which I can't recall)?

Control cycle: Wood put roots in earth, Fire melts metal, Earth soaks up water, metal restricts wood's growth, water puts out fire.

But there's no need to suspect energetic tensions when there are other possible reasons. Or what did you mean by mentioning the 5E?

[Ya Mu]

I hasz a question!

This idea of 'mirror/projection' does seem to get thrown around a LOT. If I get really annoyed when I see someone else talking at/with someone in a way that I find has a disagreable vibe, does that mean I also have the same problem as the person being "mirrored"?

 

It's from what I understand, a common 'spiritual pitfall'.

What about the whole "5E" application? Can't recall off bat, but something like anger(wood) is controlled/quited by earth (which I can't recall)?

 

I almost didn't post this because I felt I'd get flak for doing so. Interesting huh?

 

 

If I get really annoyed when I see someone else talking at/with someone in a way that I find has a disagreable vibe, does that mean I also have the same problem as the person being "mirrored"?"

 

No

 

It's from what I understand, a common 'spiritual pitfall'.

 

Maybe Yes No; every energetic situation is unique

 

What about the whole "5E" application? Can't recall off bat, but something like anger(wood) is controlled/quited by earth (which I can't recall)?

 

Aaron & I don't believe in that stuff

 

... but the 'look how I handled that mistaken person' just smacks of arrogance to me.

 

I was explaining the energetics to someone who asked. It had nothing to do with "look how I handled that mistaken person". And since that person doesn't believe in energetics it really shouldn't matter, should it. In your opinion should I have not explained? Would that be less arrogant?

Doesn't it smack of arrogance when people say things like "that smacks of arrogance"?

 

edit: Oh, and I think your idea of mirroring is a total different thing than simply reflecting back energy. Mirroring requires assuming the same mindset. Reflecting is simple reflecting.

[Mokona]

I volunteer to clear up this mess by being a recipient of distant healing energy. I won't even charge for the chance to use me as a guinea pig. Just Kidding! Sorta, hahha !

[Birch]

Thanks for the feed-back Ya Mu.

 

You said "Doesn't it smack of arrogance when people say things like "that smacks of arrogance"?" And I don't honesly know. I'd feel more honesty from the person saying it if they (well, in this case it's obviously you, so not point saying otherwise:-)) if you just said something like "Wow Kate, that was really arrogant yourself" or as sometimes hear, "pot, kettle, black" or something like that.

 

I think people are alliowed to be arrogant, just as much as they're allowed to be wrong or mistaken. It's why I said it's a "spritual pitfall".

 

From my very small understanding of 5E, it's a systemized approach to energetics. I didn't say anything about it requiring belief. More about the nature of the patterns/relationships themselves.

 

I'd be interested in hearing more on the "mirroring" vs 'reflecting" distinction. Sounds like one is active vs other passive.

[dwai]

It still is a mystery to me why "double blind scientific" holds more weight that history of use and experiential evidence. IMO in part, concerning medicine, a purely deceptive thing borne from "Your Doctor is always right" "Scientific method is King" that was shoved down our throats growing up (at least in my generation) and from an intense arrogance from the West concerning Chinese Medicine. In western medicine this has been proven to be false through the history of use failures.

My experience with most good scientists is that they have open and inquisitive minds. My good friend and tai chi partner is a post-doctorate from cornell in solid state chemistry and he has no problems accepting limitations of modern science. I find mostly the skeptics are pseudo-scientists...who make a living off their skepticism...others tend to follow on thse footsteps. Some are too inadequately equipped to think utside a box that has been defined for tem....i care two hoots for skeptics.

[Aaron]

Aaron,

 

Some important questions needs to be answered (by you) in order to establish a baseline for discussion --

 

a) do you accept that there is subtle energy flowing in our bodies that is called Qi/Ki/Prana?

b ) do you accept that there is a subtle network of channels through which is energy flows?

 

If you don't accept the above two, and in fact believe in the contrary, there is no point in continuing discussions. To be able to have a conversation on efficacy of Qi treatment, it is important to have a common ground. If that common ground is that you are a total skeptic then I'm afraid no amount of debate/discussion is going to change your mind. In fact, my experience with skeptics is that they are too closed to exploring other ideas and even experiential evidence is "rationalized" away...

 

I know there is subtle energy flowing in my body, I feel it when I meditate and I've used it to deal with pain in the past, so that's not in question, it's the level of ability that I question and the capacity for someone to manipulate that energy in another person.

 

I'm not an entire skeptic mind you, I just don't see any evidence, personal or otherwise, to say that someone has the ability to alter the chi in someone else or from a distance. I don't think it's possible, except for the greatest of practitioners, as in one in a million have this ability. There are far too many people claiming they have supernatural abilities, but not many that can actually show them to be true, that's my issue.

 

Were there men who could heal others by laying a hand on them, possibly, but I will hold to my skepticism til I see it for myself, which I haven't yet.

 

Aaron

[dwai]

I know there is subtle energy flowing in my body, I feel it when I meditate and I've used it to deal with pain in the past, so that's not in question, it's the level of ability that I question and the capacity for someone to manipulate that energy in another person.

 

I'm not an entire skeptic mind you, I just don't see any evidence, personal or otherwise, to say that someone has the ability to alter the chi in someone else or from a distance. I don't think it's possible, except for the greatest of practitioners, as in one in a million have this ability. There are far too many people claiming they have supernatural abilities, but not many that can actually show them to be true, that's my issue.

 

Were there men who could heal others by laying a hand on them, possibly, but I will hold to my skepticism til I see it for myself, which I haven't yet.

 

Aaron

Okay...now we have a baseline. So your argument is that while you accept that there is qi and it can be manipulated, manipulation over long distance is not acceptable to you...right?

 

Some further clarifying questions:

 

A) do you agree that this can be (qi) be manipulated by another person in close proximity? Tat it can be projected/made to iduce movement in another individual?

B ) do you accept that it can be manipulated either by touch or without physical contact from close proximity?

Or

C) do you hold that only an individual can manipulate his own qi but not influence others?

[Protector]

 

 

"What about the whole "5E" application? Can't recall off bat, but something like anger(wood) is controlled/quited by earth (which I can't recall)?"

Aaron & I don't believe in that stuff

 

 

WHOAH! Hold the phone!

 

Explain yourself right now!

[Ya Mu]

Thanks for the feed-back Ya Mu.

 

You said "Doesn't it smack of arrogance when people say things like "that smacks of arrogance"?" And I don't honesly know. I'd feel more honesty from the person saying it if they (well, in this case it's obviously you, so not point saying otherwise:-)) if you just said something like "Wow Kate, that was really arrogant yourself" or as sometimes hear, "pot, kettle, black" or something like that.

 

I think people are alliowed to be arrogant, just as much as they're allowed to be wrong or mistaken. It's why I said it's a "spritual pitfall".

 

From my very small understanding of 5E, it's a systemized approach to energetics. I didn't say anything about it requiring belief. More about the nature of the patterns/relationships themselves.

 

I'd be interested in hearing more on the "mirroring" vs 'reflecting" distinction. Sounds like one is active vs other passive.

I did give you an honest answer. So your insult includes saying I am dishonest as well as arrogant, huh.

 

Go get your qigong teacher to explain the energetics of reflection. Any new age book will make you a master of mirroring.

 

I wanted to talk about pain but I honestly don't think but only a very few people here have any interest or knowledge in the subject. To those very few people who have had pain in their lives that did post honest & heartfelt answers without adding bullshit I do thank you.

[Ya Mu]

I know there is subtle energy flowing in my body, I feel it when I meditate and I've used it to deal with pain in the past, so that's not in question, it's the level of ability that I question and the capacity for someone to manipulate that energy in another person.

 

I'm not an entire skeptic mind you, I just don't see any evidence, personal or otherwise, to say that someone has the ability to alter the chi in someone else or from a distance. I don't think it's possible, except for the greatest of practitioners, as in one in a million have this ability. There are far too many people claiming they have supernatural abilities, but not many that can actually show them to be true, that's my issue.

 

Were there men who could heal others by laying a hand on them, possibly, but I will hold to my skepticism til I see it for myself, which I haven't yet.

 

Aaron

Aaron,

I would be willing to bet that even if you did see it you would come up with some nonsense as to why it wasn't valid.

[Ya Mu]

WHOAH! Hold the phone!

 

Explain yourself right now!

If I thought you were serious I might.

[Ya Mu]

Okay...now we have a baseline. So your argument is that while you accept that there is qi and it can be manipulated, manipulation over long distance is not acceptable to you...right?

 

Some further clarifying questions:

 

A) do you agree that this can be (qi) be manipulated by another person in close proximity? Tat it can be projected/made to iduce movement in another individual?

do you accept that it can be manipulated either by touch or without physical contact from close proximity?

Or

C) do you hold that only an individual can manipulate his own qi but not influence others?

 

"So your argument is that while you accept that there is qi and it can be manipulated, manipulation over long distance is not acceptable to you...right?"

 

From what I read here he doesn't think it can be done at all, much less distance wise, except by one in a million. He certainly does not realize that placebo doesn't work on animals that medical qigong works very well for, and percentage wise there is no possible way for placebo to have the equivalent efficacy achieved in clinic use of medical qigong.

[Ya Mu]

...

There is nothing worse than being told the way you have come to live with and perceive aspects of your life are wrong. EVERYONE's experience of pain is unique IMHO. Walk 30 years in my shoes and someone will know what I have been through, but will they be in the same place as me? See the world as I do? Feel the same about things as I do? No. And they wouldn't be wrong either. See the quote by Dr Xie in my signature.

...

/quote]

Some things just are and are independent of a person's belief.

All pain has a very common denominator and all people will say the same thing: It hurts!

[Protector]

You're not allowed to know if I'm serious or not and you're not allowed to be called a healer if you ignore the five elements and answer to every pain question with redirecting it somewhere else

[Ya Mu]

This was lost in all the nonsense so I thought I would repost. Apparently the fact of financial burden of pain is lost on most.

 

Traditional western medicine cost of pain in the USA

 

From the American Academy of Pain Medicine:

"According to a recent Institute of Medicine Report: Relieving Pain in America: A Blueprint for Transforming Prevention, Care, Education, and Research, pain is a significant public health problem that costs society at least $560-$635 billion annually, an amount equal to about $2,000.00 for everyone living in the U.S"

 

From the Mayday Fund referencing a NIH report:

"A 1998 National Institutes of Health (NIH) report concluded that just the economic toll of chronic pain may be estimated at $100 billion a year in the United States. It has increased significantly since

then"

 

Osteoarthritis Pain abstract study

From this website: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1533-2500.2012.00535.x/abstract;jsessionid=7D2863A75C64A6A6000BF81995E62B4F.d02t01?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

"Total adjusted osteoarthritis-related costs for newly diagnosed patients were $6,811 annually"

 

Visit to a certified medical qigong therapist who offered Guaranteed Pain Relief or NO Fee:

Only if pain relief, per the client,not the Therapist, occurred

$30 in 1980's

$45 in 1990's

$75 in 2010

This was guaranteed, mind you, whereas the western medicine studies expenditures mentioned above offered no guarantees - at all.

 

Interesting comparison of expenditure even though we have no apples to apples data.

 

Now, which was cheaper?

 

The public spends much money on pain relief and pain is a large problem. The public deserves techniques that actually work.

[Birch]

I did give you an honest answer. So your insult includes saying I am dishonest as well as arrogant, huh.

 

Go get your qigong teacher to explain the energetics of reflection. Any new age book will make you a master of mirroring.

 

I wanted to talk about pain but I honestly don't think but only a very few people here have any interest or knowledge in the subject. To those very few people who have had pain in their lives that did post honest & heartfelt answers without adding bullshit I do thank you.

 

Ok, thanks. I'll go check that out.

Sorry if I insulted you.

 

I didn't think I was adding BS. Answers were also very much heartfelt. Possibly OT, but threads can wander. Insult accepted.

[Marblehead]

 

All pain has a very common denominator and all people will say the same thing: It hurts!

 

Yea!!! I get to agree with this!!! Pain do hurt!!!

[Marblehead]

Ok, thanks. I'll go check that out.

Sorry if I insulted you.

 

I didn't think I was adding BS. Answers were also very much heartfelt. Possibly OT, but threads can wander. Insult accepted.

 

Just an observation, what I saw was a misunderstanding, not any intentional insults.

[Ya Mu]

You're not allowed to know if I'm serious or not and you're not allowed to be called a healer if you ignore the five elements and answer to every pain question with redirecting it somewhere else

You are not allowed to know if I am allowed. If you really wish for me to answer a question, know that I am not interested in bullshit, and ask a serious question if you wish a serious answer.

If you are referring to the one-liner you posted where I gave you a link, I did answer the question in addition to the link. Sorry if the answer was not what you wished to hear.