............

[JohnC]

The long and the short of my post: Don't feed them trolls! it only makes them bigger.

 

Without further ado:

I want to hear about pain and the topic in general..

BACK TO THE TOPIC OF PAIN. Make a fucking thread to discuss other shit.

 

John

Edited April 4, 2012 by JohnC

[Owledge]

Hello fellow psychobabbler(s)!

 

Edit: Comment makes less sense now that JohnC removed his psychobabble.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Owledge

[Ya Mu]

I posted this 2 times already but really think most did not see it due to all the nonsense. I will try a 3rd and final time, because to me this is alarming, and I would have thought others would recognize it as I do as sign that something is terribly wrong.

 

Traditional western medicine cost of pain in the USA

 

From the American Academy of Pain Medicine:

"According to a recent Institute of Medicine Report: Relieving Pain in America: A Blueprint for Transforming Prevention, Care, Education, and Research, pain is a significant public health problem that costs society at least $560-$635 billion annually, an amount equal to about $2,000.00 for everyone living in the U.S"

 

From the Mayday Fund referencing a NIH report:

"A 1998 National Institutes of Health (NIH) report concluded that just the economic toll of chronic pain may be estimated at $100 billion a year in the United States. It has increased significantly since

then"

 

Osteoarthritis Pain abstract study

From this website: http://onlinelibrary...tomisedMessage=

"Total adjusted osteoarthritis-related costs for newly diagnosed patients were $6,811 annually"

 

 

Now I did contrast this with an unfair comparison to pain therapy through medical qigong:

 

Visit to a certified medical qigong therapist who offered Guaranteed Pain Relief or NO Fee:

Only if pain relief, per the client,not the Therapist, occurred

$30 in 1980's

$45 in 1990's

$75 in 2010

This was guaranteed, mind you, whereas the western medicine studies expenditures mentioned above offered no guarantees - at all.

 

Interesting comparison of expenditure even though we have no apples to apples data.

 

Conclusion:

The public spends much money on pain relief and pain is a large problem. The public deserves techniques that actually work and it sure would be nice if healthcare of pain patients integrated the best of Western medicine and Eastern medicine. It would also be nice if more promotion occurred of preventive medicine including exercise (utilizing calisthenic, qigong, Tai Chi and other soft-style arts) & lifestyle, to help prevent these costs to so many.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Owledge]

So you "really think" people didn't see it the first 2 times. But the third time it will be alright?

Here's another of my advice ( ): If this bit of info is so important to you, why don't you make a new thread with a title that describes the contents of that comparison? Then it'll be the very first posting, clearly visible for anybody interested in it.

 

Complaining about a thread going off-topic that is titled "Pain" is a bit cute. Be more skillful. Especially in a spiritual forum. It's like naming a thread "The nature of the Tao" and then complaining when people exchange cooking recipes.

A need for control is rooted in fear, and fear is a function of the egoic mind. Did you read the Dao De Jing? That Taoist book that some people consider to be of some importance? It talks about how trying to control things gets you into trouble by moving away from the Tao. Identify the fears at the root of discomfort, overcome them, then things will be easier. Especially fulfilling your own destiny.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Owledge

[Enishi]

Finger pointing and passive-aggressive tactics of telling people this and that spiritual lesson they need to learn (generally coming from those who mostly do a lot of reading and little real cultivation) are a common spectacle I've noticed on forums of this ilk. Really, unless you have 100% impeccable mind reading skills its a waste of time making assumptions about whatever internal issue someone might have. Attending to such things is their own duty, unless they ask for help.

 

Getting back to the subject of pain, imo there are definitely different types. I agree that acute trauma, whether it comes from physical injuries or ailments, emotional experiences or existential paradign shifts, is NOT inherently necessary. If anything, with some of the people I've talked to, whatever "lessons" they gained from their experiences are offset by how much it warped their minds, emotions and body. Even in regards to changing one's beliefs and paradigms, I'm starting to come around to the conclusion that NO ONE has infinite cognitive flexibility, not even a supposed enlightened being perhaps, and you can only change your beliefs so far over the course of one lifetime. Better that individual and social beliefs be closer to what is true and real, than expecting everyone to have infinite cognitive flexibilty.

 

Positive pain, in my view, would be the process of slowly gaining greater understanding over time, realizing past mistakes and false assumptions, along with getting the body to readjust to better posture. There is certainly some discomfort involved, but it tends to lead to fairly quick catharsis and joy at the same time. Updating immature beliefs can be part of that as well, although if your core beliefs get ripped apart and put back together too many times, it tends to tear you down.

[JohnC]

I posted this 2 times already but really think most did not see it due to all the nonsense. I will try a 3rd and final time, because to me this is alarming, and I would have thought others would recognize it as I do as sign that something is terribly wrong.

 

Traditional western medicine cost of pain in the USA

 

From the American Academy of Pain Medicine:

"According to a recent Institute of Medicine Report: Relieving Pain in America: A Blueprint for Transforming Prevention, Care, Education, and Research, pain is a significant public health problem that costs society at least $560-$635 billion annually, an amount equal to about $2,000.00 for everyone living in the U.S"

 

From the Mayday Fund referencing a NIH report:

"A 1998 National Institutes of Health (NIH) report concluded that just the economic toll of chronic pain may be estimated at $100 billion a year in the United States. It has increased significantly since

then"

 

Osteoarthritis Pain abstract study

From this website: http://onlinelibrary...tomisedMessage=

"Total adjusted osteoarthritis-related costs for newly diagnosed patients were $6,811 annually"

 

 

Now I did contrast this with an unfair comparison to pain therapy through medical qigong:

 

Visit to a certified medical qigong therapist who offered Guaranteed Pain Relief or NO Fee:

Only if pain relief, per the client,not the Therapist, occurred

$30 in 1980's

$45 in 1990's

$75 in 2010

This was guaranteed, mind you, whereas the western medicine studies expenditures mentioned above offered no guarantees - at all.

 

Interesting comparison of expenditure even though we have no apples to apples data.

 

Conclusion:

The public spends much money on pain relief and pain is a large problem. The public deserves techniques that actually work and it sure would be nice if healthcare of pain patients integrated the best of Western medicine and Eastern medicine. It would also be nice if more promotion occurred of preventive medicine including exercise (utilizing calisthenic, qigong, Tai Chi and other soft-style arts) & lifestyle, to help prevent these costs to so many.

 

 

Conspiracy theories of bigpharma and all that aside I think that tai chi and qigong are starting to make headway into hospitals... I work at duke university hospital, and in their brand new cancer center they have a meditation center with a depiction of someone sitting cross legged. I was surprised to see that, thinking there would be a prayer center or something.

 

So I went in and did some stillness movement at lunch.

 

I actually think what you, Brion and Jim are doing are slowly trickling out and people are starting to notice, per that docs and vets are pushing people to you.

 

I also imagine that it will take time and proving it through client responses, which is something I really admire about stillness movement and this lineage. It's very cut and dry with proof.

 

The proof via the clients happiness increasing and pain going away. But I think really a lot of this is just going to take some time because of skepticism and the adoption rate is a bit slow...

 

And even speaking to pain as a teacher and the like, I think it was Terry dunn on his PFQG thread that said when he had to heal some zen monks, that they had meditated on their pain body so much their bodies were like rock hard boards. So for what it's worth.

 

The prices though are shocking in comparison.

 

Maybe you ought to raise your prices so people who don't know or understand will think it's more valuable...

(Joking joking, I like the prices where they are.)

 

John

Edited April 4, 2012 by JohnC

[Owledge]

1) Finger pointing and passive-aggressive tactics of telling people this and that spiritual lesson they need to learn (generally coming from those who mostly do a lot of reading and little real cultivation) are a common spectacle I've noticed on forums of this ilk.

2) Really, unless you have 100% impeccable mind reading skills its a waste of time making assumptions about whatever internal issue someone might have.

3) Attending to such things is their own duty, unless they ask for help.

1) It's all good, all for a reason. At least that's a Taoist approach. (Acceptance of all your experiences in life as being valuable/meaningful.)

2) No, it doesn't require mind-reading, because when things get emotional, people are saying a lot more than they are aware of. Or can you tell me a reason for getting upset that is not rooted in (existential) fears? I did a lot of (self-)reflection and at some point it becomes apparent. Next time you get upset, ask yourself why. Then don't be content with that answer and ask why again. It only works if you sincerely want to know. This is a very simple but profound exercise in insight, about the roots of human behavior.

(It is impossible to make someone genuinely angry who has overcome fear of death.)

3) Asking can be seen in a broader term. Verbally asking will simply attract different people. It might be optimum to only get 'help' when asking, but as I said, we are responsible for our actions and their reactions. After all, external experiences help with the internal journey.

 

Your following paragraphs are very much related to everything that happened in this thread. All the pain expressed! I wonder why it is considered off-topic.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Owledge

[Ya Mu]

...

Sorry, John told me to not feed the trolls as it makes them grow up to be not-nice people.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Pain is one of the most misunderstood (as well evidenced by this thread) and major health topics that seem to always get pushed to the wayside for more in-vogue health topics like cancer, heart, etc. yet represents an all encompassing thing that can turn peoples lives upside down and haunt them until them die. I wish there were more therapists out there who really understood how to eliminate the source of pain but that will probably be some time from now before that happens.

 

edit:

Conspiracy theories of bigpharma and all that aside I think that tai chi and qigong are starting to make headway into hospitals... I work at duke university hospital, and in their brand new cancer center they have a meditation center with a depiction of someone sitting cross legged. I was surprised to see that, thinking there would be a prayer center or something.

 

So I went in and did some stillness movement at lunch.

 

I actually think what you, Brion and Jim are doing are slowly trickling out and people are starting to notice, per that docs and vets are pushing people to you.

 

I also imagine that it will take time and proving it through client responses, which is something I really admire about stillness movement and this lineage. It's very cut and dry with proof.

 

The proof via the clients happiness increasing and pain going away. But I think really a lot of this is just going to take some time because of skepticism and the adoption rate is a bit slow...

 

And even speaking to pain as a teacher and the like, I think it was Terry dunn on his PFQG thread that said when he had to heal some zen monks, that they had meditated on their pain body so much their bodies were like rock hard boards. So for what it's worth.

 

The prices though are shocking in comparison.

 

Maybe you ought to raise your prices so people who don't know or understand will think it's more valuable...

(Joking joking, I like the prices where they are.)

 

John

 

Good info. I had posted the above while you were posting.

 

 

Finger pointing and passive-aggressive tactics of telling people this and that spiritual lesson they need to learn (generally coming from those who mostly do a lot of reading and little real cultivation) are a common spectacle I've noticed on forums of this ilk. Really, unless you have 100% impeccable mind reading skills its a waste of time making assumptions about whatever internal issue someone might have. Attending to such things is their own duty, unless they ask for help.

 

Getting back to the subject of pain, imo there are definitely different types. I agree that acute trauma, whether it comes from physical injuries or ailments, emotional experiences or existential paradign shifts, is NOT inherently necessary. If anything, with some of the people I've talked to, whatever "lessons" they gained from their experiences are offset by how much it warped their minds, emotions and body. Even in regards to changing one's beliefs and paradigms, I'm starting to come around to the conclusion that NO ONE has infinite cognitive flexibility, not even a supposed enlightened being perhaps, and you can only change your beliefs so far over the course of one lifetime. Better that individual and social beliefs be closer to what is true and real, than expecting everyone to have infinite cognitive flexibilty.

 

Positive pain, in my view, would be the process of slowly gaining greater understanding over time, realizing past mistakes and false assumptions, along with getting the body to readjust to better posture. There is certainly some discomfort involved, but it tends to lead to fairly quick catharsis and joy at the same time. Updating immature beliefs can be part of that as well, although if your core beliefs get ripped apart and put back together too many times, it tends to tear you down.

Good post. I had posted the above while you were composing yours.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Mokona]

I went in for some weird pain last month. I was sitting at my desk and my neck started becoming stiffer and stiffer. it hurt nearly too much to drive to medical. when I arrived someone else from my command was in for the same thing, on my way out another guy had just gone in with the same symptoms. The doc didn't try to find out what was wrong with me, she prescribed heaps of muscle relaxers and sent me away. She just said " sometimes people feel pain."

It was crap.

[Aaron]

Finger pointing and passive-aggressive tactics of telling people this and that spiritual lesson they need to learn (generally coming from those who mostly do a lot of reading and little real cultivation) are a common spectacle I've noticed on forums of this ilk. Really, unless you have 100% impeccable mind reading skills its a waste of time making assumptions about whatever internal issue someone might have. Attending to such things is their own duty, unless they ask for help.

 

Getting back to the subject of pain, imo there are definitely different types. I agree that acute trauma, whether it comes from physical injuries or ailments, emotional experiences or existential paradign shifts, is NOT inherently necessary. If anything, with some of the people I've talked to, whatever "lessons" they gained from their experiences are offset by how much it warped their minds, emotions and body. Even in regards to changing one's beliefs and paradigms, I'm starting to come around to the conclusion that NO ONE has infinite cognitive flexibility, not even a supposed enlightened being perhaps, and you can only change your beliefs so far over the course of one lifetime. Better that individual and social beliefs be closer to what is true and real, than expecting everyone to have infinite cognitive flexibilty.

 

Positive pain, in my view, would be the process of slowly gaining greater understanding over time, realizing past mistakes and false assumptions, along with getting the body to readjust to better posture. There is certainly some discomfort involved, but it tends to lead to fairly quick catharsis and joy at the same time. Updating immature beliefs can be part of that as well, although if your core beliefs get ripped apart and put back together too many times, it tends to tear you down.

 

I agree Enishi. I've spent over two decades now examining the Tao Teh Ching and meditating daily. It amazes me how people will come to this forum with just a surface understanding of the topic and fail to see the deeper meaning, one realized, not just through intellectual contemplation, but also practice.

 

I am always advocating that people use their own experiences as a means of determining what is real and not real, rather than just accepting something as truth because the majority believe it to be. I spent a great deal of time intellectualizing much of this, but it took experiential realization to truly understand it.

 

There are many things I've learned, that if you told me they were true, I would've probably never believed you. Sometimes it takes more than just words to prove a point, which is why words are mostly useless. The sage teaches through his actions. It would be nice if that could be done somehow on an internet forum, but sadly it does require communicating to express one's self. Perhaps the key is in the way we communicate?

 

Aaron

Edited April 4, 2012 by Twinner

[Aaron]

The long and the short of my post: Don't feed them trolls! it only makes them bigger.

 

Without further ado:

I want to hear about pain and the topic in general..

BACK TO THE TOPIC OF PAIN. Make a fucking thread to discuss other shit.

 

John

 

Why can't we have an off topic discussion going on at the same time? It's just as easy to ignore those posts that you don't like, or are you more concerned with making sure people only talk about what's approved to talk about? It would be different if I, or anyone else here was responding to every post, but I've only been responding to those people responding to my discussion.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I get tired of people resorting to the use of the word "troll" whenever someone shows up with a different opinion. If you look back at the discussion, I made a comment regarding pain, Ya Mu came back and essentially said I had no idea what I was talking about, then I came back and explained my opinion and it declined from there, but I have left a concession that I am willing to believe if proof is shown.

 

Of course because I am not kowtowing and going along with the group mind, I must be a troll. It's ridiculous and really a clear sign of intolerance. If this follows the natural progression, then someone will try to provoke someone to anger (ala 5elemental style) or keep berating them until the mods ban them because they get upset (VMarco style) or I can just say this isn't worth it and let you have your little qigong medicinal healing circle jerk without any interference from someone who might want to talk about another aspect or concept of pain.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Twinner

[Seth Ananda]

Until I see evidence otherwise, I hold to C. I think it's possible for someone to manipulate another person's qi, but I think they're one in a million practitioners.

 

Aaron

lol, ever been punched? Or yelled at? Or given an orgasm? Or a Back rub?

 

Even worse is you already stated you believe in the premise of Chinese medicine, so you have probably had acupuncture. {where someone manipulated your chi, with needles}

 

I think everyone manipulates everyone's chi that they come in contact with.

 

 

I sometime forget just how many people here, who speak as if they 'know', actually have so few experiences to draw conclusions from...

[steve]

I've had some experience of pain myself, physical, psychological, and emotional.

I also have 25 years of experience in working with others in pain.

 

I think pain is our body's method of communicating with our consciousness, including both physical, psychological, and emotional pain. I do think there is a distinction between pain and suffering. Pain is the unpleasant feeling that tells us something is wrong or something needs attention. Suffering is the psychological and emotional response, the anxiety, the struggle against the pain. It is certainly possible to experience pain without suffering. I know many people with serious chronic pain who do not suffer at all. And the suffering may continue when the pain has diminished or completely resolved. Whether discussing pain or anything else, suffering relates to the struggle against what is.

 

In the "normal" situation, something in the mind or body is amiss and needs attention. Zhuang Zi's parable "When the Shoe Fits" comes to mind. When the body and mind are healthy, there is little or no pain. When something doesn't fit or needs attention, it's important for us to acknowledge that and make sure we address it before there is more serious harm done. This is pain's function, to get our attention. If we are able to recognize and address the source of the pain, it generally goes away.

 

If the source of the pain is not recognized or adequately addressed, the pain will continue and worsen as the body and mind desperately try to get the consciousness to take the necessary action to rectify the situation. And this is the tricky part because when pain lasts for more than a short duration and there is not a relatively quick improvement, it begins to become infused with all sorts of other stuff that has a tendency to cause it to linger and grow in the body and mind. This includes psychological, social, economic, emotional, spiritual, energetic factors, and so on. Pain is never isolated to the physical, neurological experience. It always includes these other, more subtle factors. It's when the pain lasts too long and begins to more deeply invade one's life that these other factors really come into play and take on a life of their own. And once this happens, even eliminating the original source of pain is often no longer enough to solve the problem. Now the other, secondary areas of a person's life that have been affected need to be addressed as well - loss of job, home, or car; loss of marriage; loss of sexual function; loss of self esteem; reactive depression, and on and on. And all of this is equally applicable to psychological, emotional, or physical pain. Having worked with folks with serious physical and psychiatric illness, I can't say that either is necessarily "worse" than the other. Both can be equally devastating.

 

I agree with Aaron's point that pain is inevitable. In the Daoist view, pain and pleasure define each other. If one never knew pain, pleasure would have little meaning and vice versa. Just like light and dark and hot and cold. Pain is a part of the human experience. Pain in and of itself is not pathologic. Is pain necessary? Absolutely - no one has ever lived in the total absence of pain. It is a normal part of a healthy life. That is not to say that it must always be out of balance or always present, it cycles in a normal life. It is simply a part of life just like you cannot inhale without first exhaling. That also does not mean that it must be tolerated.

 

I also agree that pain is one of the great teachers in life. But it is not always easy or obvious what the lesson is. And it can be extremely difficult to see it during the experience. It's usually only much later that the lesson is recognized and internalized, if ever.

 

And I also agree with the importance of the psychological and emotional components of pain. Acute pain, such as what occurs when you break a bone, is mainly a physiological experience. Sure there is fear and anxiety, but if the bone is treated appropriately, the pain will begin to diminish after a few days and within a few weeks it's nearly gone and the fear and anxiety diminish accordingly. Chronic pain is a very different situation. When the pain shows no sign of improving, the anxiety and fear that it will never go away begin to grow. And as the anxiety increases, we become much more sensitized to the pain. The heightened awareness makes the pain feel more intense and also causes us to begin to pay very close attention to other things that don't seem right. Some people can become completely focused on this as the center of their lives.

 

Not only do the other factors come into play that I mentioned above but there is a very strong component of repressed emotion, typically anger or rage. Why me?!?!? This isn't fair!!!! This becomes extremely apparent if you ever have an opportunity to see how people react to an injury when it's work related (in the USA) versus not work related. The results of treatment in workers' compensation cases have been shown to be dramatically inferior to the results of identical treatment in matched series of patients who are not comp patients. Why? Psychological, emotional, and economic factors.

 

John Sarno is a physiatrist in New York who has done some really good work with chronic pain. His theory is that chronic pain is the brain's method for distracting itself from repressed anger and rage (and similar emotions). His work is mainly in chronic back pain but he extends it to other types of pain as well. As a result of my personal and clinical experience, there is no question in my mind that he is on to something real. That is not to say that anger and rage are the sole causes of chronic pain. But they are critically important in perpetuating the cycle of pain and must be acknowledged and dealt with to break the cycle.

 

When I deal with someone who has this going on, the response is nearly always the same. If I'm able to help them to acknowledge the underlying emotional associations with their pain, they immediately begin to release and let go of it. They instantly begin to cry as they begin to truly feel the emotional content that's been hidden at the core of their pain. It is a transformation. And if they are open to the process, true healing begins. Unfortunately, many are not ready for this and hold onto the pain. Sadly, many of these folks end up in long term "pain management" (a kind term for medically supervised opiate addiction), or multiple failed surgeries, or years in a variety of unsuccessful treatments of all kinds (including massage, energy work, medical Qigong, acupuncture, and anything else you can think of). In fact, one of the points that Sarno emphasized that I agree with is that the chronic pain patient must let go of the label. They must reclaim their will to live and function. They must let go of the illness mindset. Sadly, any treatment for these people can have the effect of reinforcing the feeling of being sick and needing treatment.

 

As far as whether pain is helpful or necessary in spiritual growth, it's been my experience that relatively serious trauma is often necessary as a stimulus for serious transformation. Essential? Who knows? But it certainly was a necessary stimulus in my own life.

 

Anyway, enough from me right now.

Sorry for the long post!

[Ya Mu]

Why can't we have an off topic discussion going on at the same time? It's just as easy to ignore those posts that you don't like, or are you more concerned with making sure people only talk about what's approved to talk about? It would be different if I, or anyone else here was responding to every post, but I've only been responding to those people responding to my discussion.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I get tired of people resorting to the use of the word "troll" whenever someone shows up with a different opinion. If you look back at the discussion, I made a comment regarding pain, Ya Mu came back and essentially said I had no idea what I was talking about, then I came back and explained my opinion and it declined from there, but I have left a concession that I am willing to believe if proof is shown.

 

Of course because I am not kowtowing and going along with the group mind, I must be a troll. It's ridiculous and really a clear sign of intolerance. If this follows the natural progression, then someone will try to provoke someone to anger (ala 5elemental style) or keep berating them until the mods ban them because they get upset (VMarco style) or I can just say this isn't worth it and let you have your little qigong medicinal healing circle jerk without any interference from someone who might want to talk about another aspect or concept of pain.

 

Why "Why can't we have an off topic discussion going on at the same time?" Because it is not an off topic discussion, it is pure trashy talk by people acting trashy.

 

And as far you yourself are concerned, no one said anything bad to you about posting on any aspect of the subject you wanted to - as long as you didn't insult people.

 

... let you have your little qigong medicinal healing circle jerk without any interference from someone who might want to talk about another aspect or concept of pain.

 

Just because you are so unwilling to research medical qigong is no reason to trash those that are educated about it.

[Aaron]

No one wants to follow a thread where people come on and talk nonsense where the poster has no clue what they are talking about, yet goes on and on and on like a damn robot. No one wants to come on a thread and post when people are behaving like assholes. No one wants to come on a thread where every other post is someone insulting someone. THIS is why "Why can't we have an off topic discussion going on at the same time?" Because it is not an off topic discussion, it is pure trashy talk by people acting trashy.

 

And as far you yourself are concerned, no one said anything bad to you about posting on any aspect of the subject you wanted to - as long as you didn't insult people.

 

... let you have your little qigong medicinal healing circle jerk without any interference from someone who might want to talk about another aspect or concept of pain.

 

Just because you are so unwilling to research medical qigong is no reason to trash those that are educated about it.

 

First, changing the name of topic is childish, very much so. Editing the OP was even more so. You need to try and not get so emotionally involved in your discussions, it will prevent you from learning when the opportunity arises. Also keep in mind you repeatedly tried to goad me into arguing with you by insulting me and making ludicrous claims... ala the robot claim, implying I am heartless without emotion, repeating the same thing over and over, which isn't true in the least. What happened was you got upset, overreacted because you felt threatened and thew a little hissy fit at the end in order to set your foot down and show your dominance.

 

Grow up and get over yourself, you're not that important.

 

Aaron

 

edit- And if I'm so biased and anti-medicinal qigong, then find a thread on medicanal qigong, or giqong in general where I have insulted or diminished the practice (or for that matter commented), other than this thread, where you essentially forced my hand on the issue.

[Ya Mu]

First, changing the name of topic is childish, very much so. Editing the OP was even more so. You need to try and not get so emotionally involved in your discussions, it will prevent you from learning when the opportunity arises. Also keep in mind you repeatedly tried to goad me into arguing with you by insulting me and making ludicrous claims... ala the robot claim, implying I am heartless without emotion, repeating the same thing over and over, which isn't true in the least. What happened was you got upset, overreacted because you felt threatened and thew a little hissy fit at the end in order to set your foot down and show your dominance.

 

Grow up and get over yourself, you're not that important.

 

Aaron

 

edit- And if I'm so biased and anti-medicinal qigong, then find a thread on medicanal qigong, or giqong in general where I have insulted or diminished the practice (or for that matter commented), other than this thread, where you essentially forced my hand on the issue.

Aaron, you should quit making false claims - you started insulting me - I didn't insult you - and you damn well know it. Do we need to repost what was said?

 

Changing the name of the thread was practical because it no longer was a thread about pain - only a very few posts were coming through about pain - they were all by people wanting to derail the thread so no continuity could be continued - after one post about pain there were far too many about pure bullshit - and you know this as well. I can edit anything I want in what I post and it isn't up to you to make judements of or to me about it - or childishly whine about it. It sounds like what happened here is you thought I had left the thread and had to get that final bullshit out of your mouth so as to "prove your superiority", and came back with an over-the-top post when I said something about it.

 

No one forced your hand on this issue - you chose to post your nonsense.

 

I was referring to the thread derailing where it seemed impossible to have any continuity due to people that kept on and on about nothing to do with the topic. Nothing was said about you.

 

uh, "hissy fit"?, I am not even sure what that is, but since you came up with it perhaps it has meaning to you. Perhaps this is what you just had.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Ya Mu

[suninmyeyes]

Reading some posts..

So it seems that what pain does is in some cases is forces us to become alert and present, adequatly responsive to life. That pointing seems to be the role of pain.

While this may be more common and true in spiritual life, it is not so for wide majority of people. All we need to do is take a walk on the buisy street and look at the postures and faces of people deeply and we can recgonise how much pain of all sorts has taken toil on their lifes. Majority have not learned anything from it but, infact it has worsened their living conditions.

Pain feeds on itself and it is not easy to eliminate. It can take over peoples life to extreme extent. Which in turn results in people being out of tune physically, mentally, spiritually.

What really helps is learning to being tuned in, aware, this is the real teaching, not the pain. Pain just points, if we dont know how to adress what it points to problem wont be solved. Most people dont. Being tuned in, can be learned painlessly as well through being intelligent and attentive. So when pain does occur one already has skills to deal with it.

This is what we as world society need. We need to heal.

Personally I have learned through pain and of course it is natural to feel it , but have also learned that pain (physical especially) is definetly not necesarry to learn and choose and look for avenues to grow in ease ,allowing life to live .

Edited April 5, 2012 by suninmyeyes

[Protector]

This thread is a pain, not about pain

 

But still, everyone is avoiding something. Why do we feel pain when all these things happen? It just shows up out of nowhere. Why is pain there?

 

I already said that it's energy

[Mokona]

This thread is a pain, not about pain

 

But still, everyone is avoiding something. Why do we feel pain when all these things happen? It just shows up out of nowhere. Why is pain there?

 

I already said that it's energy

Do you mean physical pain from injury or something else? I have a wierd pain near my back deep inside my body that becomes very acute when I relax in any sitting position. I thought it might be becuase I was avoiding "back excerises" so I took up Foundations by Peter Park and Eric Goodman.

[Protector]

Can't think of any kind of pain that is not energy

[Green Tiger]

"I suspect now that emotional trauma can actually manifest as physical trauma and vise versa."

Bingo! YES!!!

 

"I think some people become attached to their pain and are actually afraid to part with it."

I believe this to be true as well and it is a part of my clinical experience that it is true.

 

So if, lets say, I have a very emotionally traumatic experience involving intense fear, even though I was not physically injured in any way, this could manifest as a physical pain or injury? Possibly a misalignment of the spine or something like that?

 

Is there a specific way that certain emotional traumas might manifest in the body? Does anyone know?

 

For instance, if I have a verbally abusive person in my life who expresses a lot of anger toward me, would that emotional trauma manifest differently than the intense fear? Perhaps I'm attempting to split hairs.

 

What I would like to understand is: Do specific emotions relate to specific areas of the body? Does stress ALWAYS manifest as lower back pain, in everyone, or is it more subjective? Maybe my stress manifests as shoulder tension and her stress manifests as hip tension, but TYPICALLY it manifests as lower back pain? Or maybe there is no typical way for it to manifest at all. Maybe it is totally subjective.

[Ya Mu]

So if, lets say, I have a very emotionally traumatic experience involving intense fear, even though I was not physically injured in any way, this could manifest as a physical pain or injury? Possibly a misalignment of the spine or something like that?

 

Is there a specific way that certain emotional traumas might manifest in the body? Does anyone know?

 

For instance, if I have a verbally abusive person in my life who expresses a lot of anger toward me, would that emotional trauma manifest differently than the intense fear? Perhaps I'm attempting to split hairs.

 

What I would like to understand is: Do specific emotions relate to specific areas of the body? Does stress ALWAYS manifest as lower back pain, in everyone, or is it more subjective? Maybe my stress manifests as shoulder tension and her stress manifests as hip tension, but TYPICALLY it manifests as lower back pain? Or maybe there is no typical way for it to manifest at all. Maybe it is totally subjective.

answered in post #125

Edited April 8, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Owledge]

I have not hurled the same insults as you and you well know it.

Aaron, you should quit making false claims - you started insulting me - I didn't insult you - and you damn well know it.

after one post about pain there were far too many about pure bullshit - and you know this as well.

Common rhetorical tool in disputes like these. Stating that the other person "knows" that you are right. Very defensive and denialist. You should stop doing that. It drags you further down into delusion.

 

I can edit anything I want in what I post and it isn't up to you to make judements of or to me about it - or childishly whine about it.

Now the copying machine has been fired up. When someone feels on the defense and unable to compete, the perceived attacker is imitated in order to at least get to the same level.

[Ya Mu]

Common rhetorical tool in disputes like these. Stating that the other person "knows" that you are right. Very defensive and denialist. You should stop doing that. It drags you further down into delusion.

 

 

Now the copying machine has been fired up. When someone feels on the defense and unable to compete, the perceived attacker is imitated in order to at least get to the same level.

 

You are constantly using specific terms here that has me a bit alarmed. Due to your attempts to belittle me with "psychology terms" that you appear to not quite understand the meaning of but like to use, I have to ask that if you are under the care of a psychiatrist or psychologist please say so. It certainly appears that you have talked with quite a few of them. If this is the case I sincerely apologize to you for anything I may have said to cause your irritation. I do know that mental issues can be debilitating and I wish you the best. If this is not the case then - I also apologize for any irritation to you brought about by any contribution that the answers I gave to your questions had to bringing you to this state. And still wish you the best.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Owledge]

Well, now it's clear that you certainly love that "passive-aggressiveness" and "belittling" you mentioned. And in case you felt I started it, then, as I mentioned before, it's still unwise to counter with the same stuff you crizicize.