ricemaster

The diaphragm in reverse breathing

105 posts in this topic

Steve...

I know what you are saying. If you watch the Chen style more closely, you will see that they always put a little extra twist in their body movements. BTW I am just putting a little extra emphasis on that extra little twist not excluding other styles. Please do not assume that you are always talking to an amateur. I think we are here long enough to know who knows what and who doesn't. Don't you think...???

 

Edited to add.

The advance level of Chen style Tai Chi is nothing but Fa Jin.
Edited by ChiDragon

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I think I've been here long enough for everyone to know that I'm super fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I practice them very similarly.

Thanks for that outline.

One minor difference, the heart sound for me is more like "huh" than "ha" and is usually written He = 呵

I also have never practiced any of these on inhale.

Thanks for the correction. I took them directly out of his book since I gave J.J. credit but he has a typo. One can see Wiki for the following:

 

噓 XU [pronounced like 'she,' with the lips rounded] - 'deep sigh' or 'hiss' - Level the Liver Qi

呵 HE [pronounced like 'huh'] - 'yawn' or 'laughing sound' - Supplement the Heart Qi

呼 HU [pronounced like 'who'] - 'to sigh,' 'to exhale,' or 'to call' - Cultivate [or Shore Up] the Spleen/Pancreas Qi

呬 SI [pronounced like 'sir'] - 'to rest' - Supplement the Lung Qi

吹 CHUI [pronounced 'chway' or 'chwee,' depending on locale] - 'to blow out,' 'to blast,' or 'to puff' - Supplement the Kidney Qi

嘻 XI [pronounced like 'she' with tongue high, and well forward, in the mouth] - 'mirthful' - Regulate the Triple Burner Qi[1]

 

Mantak Chia also wrote a nice book which includes practices for each.

 

 

additional notes for all:

 

One rule of thumb I recall is that the higher the organ in the body, the higher the sound... generally... but one will feel [high-to-low] what resonates best.

 

---

 

There is another combination sound: Om-Har-Reem

 

For the three dan tians (top to bottom)... and that middle one (Har) is definitely a deeper sound and the heart response to it as well. There are times when I do like to take the heart sound lower than Ha.

 

---

 

There are colors associated to each as well but colors are to tonify and would be used on inhale... and one can even ascend / descend sounds... audible to inaudbile... lots of variations, each with a use; maybe another thread. Only caveat I was told was not to purge (sound) the kidney's too much since they are generally weaker and need tonifying (color) most of the time.

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good healing sound points :) an interesting modifier - I've heard some teach the 'sounds' as done subvocally, some even to the point of it being only intention. I've found it very...ah...no word, interesting doing it in a sort of curved fashion amongst the repetitions, start out 2/3rds of the final intensity (whatever that is) and then step exponential curve them down to subvocal, step finishing down to where it is only intent.

 

if you've got the time for a few extra reps :lol:

 

'he' me too

 

 

I'm honestly surprised more people havent chimed in on this!

Edited by joeblast

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This is the version of the six healing sounds that I practice.

I particularly like the preparations done before the actual sounds are performed.

A full session of 36 repetitions of the sounds can be a very good meditation session.

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Hi all,

 

As the OP it would be great if you can move different discussions (healing sounds etc) to other threads.

 

Still looking for information about the movement of the diaphragm in reverse/embryonic breathing.

 

Thanks!

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In order to understand what is reverse diaphragmatic breathing, one must know what is the basic definition of diaphragmatic breathing to begin with.

 

Diaphragmatic breathing, abdominal breathing, belly breathing or deep breathing is breathing that is done by contracting the diaphragm, a muscle located horizontally between the chest cavity and stomach cavity. Air enters the lungs and the belly expands during this type of breathing.

 

This deep breathing is marked by expansion of the abdomen rather than the chest when breathing. It is considered by some to be a healthier and fuller way to ingest oxygen[1], and is sometimes used as a therapy for hyperventilation, anxiety disorders and stuttering.

 

 

Ref:Diaphragm Breathing

 

To start fresh, please disregard what you were told and unlearn what you had taught and use the definition as the basic fundamental understanding. Thus you can go a long way from here.

Edited by ChiDragon

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That was long ago established - I am curious why you keep returning to natural abdominal breathing, the question was regarding reverse - or are you agreeing with me regarding the motion of the diaphragm that little changes between the two notions? :)

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Something to keep in mind is that Wikipedia is not an accurate source for health information.

 

belly breathing or deep breathing is breathing that is done by contracting the diaphragm

 

This also happens in reverse breathing; perhaps even more so.

 

...to be a healthier and fuller way to ingest oxygen[1],

 

Not necessarily true. Is there a single peer reviewed study that shows this in comparison to other types of breathing? Be careful about spreading disinformation...enough people do it already. Spread truth!

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That was long ago established - I am curious why you keep returning to natural abdominal breathing, the question was regarding reverse - or are you agreeing with me regarding the motion of the diaphragm that little changes between the two notions? :)

 

The motion of the diaphragm does not change the thought of RB. The difference is in the breathing when one inhale or exhale depends what position of the diaphragm was in. It seems to me I did not get my point across. However, I do not wish you to agree with me, but just try to understand what I am saying.

Edited by ChiDragon

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The difference is truly trivial if we are analyzing and reducing the constituent motions to their individual components. The physical layer will correspond to the energetic layer. Please explain what you mean by "the thought of RB" - of course the intention is different but how that actually translates to the physical motion of the diaphragm is trivial in that it is other parts that change their motion, the diaphragm moves in concert. So even though there is a minute difference in how the diaphragm actually moves, so far as the diaphragm itself is concerned its motion is no different for natural vs reverse - it descends on the inhale.

 

I think I've explained this enough different ways, but it simply boils down to two big things: the lungs will not fill sufficiently for a "breath" if the diaphragm doesn not descend, and if all parts do not compress toward the dantien then the compression is undermined and inefficient.

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Please explain what you mean by "the thought of RB"

Under normal breathing(NB), the abdomen was FULLY EXpanded and INdented during INhalation and EXhalation, respectively.

 

This is "the thought of RB"

Under reverse breathing(RB), the abdomen CAN BE FULLY or PARTIALLY EXpanded and INdented during EXhalation and INhalation, respectively.

 

The purpose of RB, for a martial artist, is to exchange gas in the lungs at a faster rate to regenerate the energy that was released from a fast blow. So, the next blow can be continued without any hesitation. RB will make the body to be at its strongest at the moment.

 

Ref:

Edited by ChiDragon

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Under normal breathing(NB), the abdomen was FULLY EXpanded and INdented during INhalation and EXhalation, respectively.

 

This is "the thought of RB"

Under reverse breathing(RB), the abdomen CAN BE FULLY or PARTIALLY EXpanded and INdented during EXhalation and INhalation, respectively.

 

The purpose of RB, for a martial artist, is to exchange gas in the lungs at a faster rate to regenerate the energy that was released from a fast blow. So, the next blow can be continued without any hesitation. RB will make the body to be at its strongest at the moment.

 

Ref:

 

Er...NB is belly expanding out during inhalation and contracting during exhalation. RB is belly contracting during inhalation and expanding during exhalation.

 

Your thought of RB seems to the be same as NB. I suppose that was a typo?

 

During RB in some cases we breath into (contract the chi into) the entire spine and exhale (expanding chi out from) the the entire spine (a kind of condensing breathing)...

Edited by dwai

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Under normal breathing(NB), the abdomen was FULLY EXpanded and INdented during INhalation and EXhalation, respectively.

 

This is "the thought of RB"

Under reverse breathing(RB), the abdomen CAN BE FULLY or PARTIALLY EXpanded and INdented during EXhalation and INhalation, respectively.

 

The purpose of RB, for a martial artist, is to exchange gas in the lungs at a faster rate to regenerate the energy that was released from a fast blow. So, the next blow can be continued without any hesitation. RB will make the body to be at its strongest at the moment.

 

Ref:

All of your evidence agrees with me - I'm being corralled into thinking you just have some language barrier here.

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Personally I tend to agree with joeblast here, that the diaphragm in RB moves the same as in NB (down on inhale).

 

In fact, I believe it is impossible to inhale without the diaphragm descending, as it is the contraction (descent/flattening) of the diaphragm which is the first in the chain of events which results in inhalation.

 

However what we really need is references to known teachers/writings about this.

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See for yourself...at 2:00 for explanation.

 

Explanation at 2.40

Edited by ChiDragon

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Keep tryin! What do you think the effects on the diaphragm are from the way these guys are explaining? (Its not contrary to how I've described it. :) )

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One interesting benefit of reverse breathing is that is works to strengthen the diaphragm and accessory inspiration muscles (esp quadratus lumborum and iliopsoas).

During NAB, the abdomen relaxes so there is minimal resistance to the activity of diaphragm contraction.

 

During RAB, the increased abdominal pressure works to resist the activity of diaphragm contraction providing an isometric exercise for the diagphragm. This resistance seems to be why we engage the accessory muscles more with RAB. They are not needed as much with NAB.

 

That said, there is also a method of practicing RAB where the abdomen does not contract so much but the empasis is placed on inhaling into the chest and relaxing the abdomen on exhale. This does not lead to as much work for the diaphragm but is valuable in internal work.

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Personally I tend to agree with joeblast here, that the diaphragm in RB moves the same as in NB (down on inhale).

 

In fact, I believe it is impossible to inhale without the diaphragm descending, as it is the contraction (descent/flattening) of the diaphragm which is the first in the chain of events which results in inhalation.

 

However what we really need is references to known teachers/writings about this.

I think that was what has been bothering you in the first place as stated in the OP. It seems that your mind is still set at that.... :(

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Sorry, coming into this one late; haven't read through as well as I wanted but thought i'd jump in. I apologize if what I am going to say has already been said.

 

As taught by my teacher, most westerners stumble upon reverse breathing as a result of being "fashionable modest." People don't want to breath naturally (lower abdominal breathing) because most people are self conscious about looking "fat." It's more of a burden than a blessing.

 

As i've been taught, reverse breathing can have major negative effects on the nervous system if one is not ready for the reverse breath. Reverse breathing is a natural process that begins when the sympathetic nervous system is activated leading to cortisol being released into the blood which is not something one necessarily wants. Anyone who consciously exercises will tell you that when fatigue sets in and things get strenuous, the reverse breath naturally kicks in.

 

Although I can't find research to support my claim, I would say that the fact that no baby has ever come out reverse breathing hints at the fact that lower abdominal breathing is the natural way, and therefore reverse breathing should naturally arise instead of being training it to come about.

 

I guess my point for throwing all that out there is to advise people to be careful when it comes to consciously training the reverse breath. If your anything like me, it would be better to train lower abdominal breathing as opposed to the reverse breath. I unfortunately was one of those people that from an early age made a bad habit out of the reverse breath, causing shit like asthma and anxiety to pop up. Now that I am en-training the complete breath things have drastically changed for the better; asthma has pretty much disappeared and anxiety is no longer an issue.

 

I see where the "idea" of the reverse breath sounds cool to people who are looking to become "qigong/taoist masters" but I think the real secret is that the reverse breath will organically arise when the reverse breath is needed.

Edited by don_vedo
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As i've been taught, reverse breathing can have major negative effects on the nervous system if one is not ready for the reverse breath. Reverse breathing is a natural process that begins when the sympathetic nervous system is activated leading to cortisol being released into the blood which is not something one necessarily wants. Anyone who consciously exercises will tell you that when fatigue sets in and things get strenuous, the reverse breath naturally kicks in.

Didn't realize that. Thanks. :)

 

I see where the "idea" of the reverse breath sounds cool to people who are looking to become "qigong/taoist masters" but I think the real secret is that the reverse breath will organically arise when the reverse breath is needed.

I like that secret, don vedo. -_-:D

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That's where the whole notion of natural rolling over to reverse comes from :)

 

(and the focal point is mastery of the psoas, it doesnt happen naturally until your natural abdominal breathing goes that deeply that you can make it externally disappear...which...also does not happen without a significant mastery of the psoas...)

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1. Sorry, coming into this one late; haven't read through as well as I wanted but thought i'd jump in. I apologize if what I am going to say has already been said.

 

2. As i've been taught, reverse breathing can have major negative effects on the nervous system if one is not ready for the reverse breath. Reverse breathing is a natural process that begins when the sympathetic nervous system is activated leading to cortisol being released into the blood which is not something one necessarily wants. Anyone who consciously exercises will tell you that when fatigue sets in and things get strenuous, the reverse breath naturally kicks in.

 

3. Although I can't find research to support my claim, I would say that the fact that no baby has ever come out reverse breathing hints at the fact that lower abdominal breathing is the natural way, and therefore reverse breathing should naturally arise instead of being training it to come about.

 

4. I see where the "idea" of the reverse breath sounds cool to people who are looking to become "qigong/taoist masters" but I think the real secret is that the reverse breath will organically arise when the reverse breath is needed.

1. Welcome aboard, one is never too late, your arrival was perfect timing.

 

2. Reverse breathing is a natural process that begins when the sympathetic nervous system is activated leading to cortisol being released into the blood...

 

As I practice Chi Kung and study along with a good explanation with modern science, I like to put the pieces together little by little like a jig puzzle. I am glad that you had mentioned about the cortisol being released into the blood during reverse breathing. It leads me to think that why martial artist do RB during combat. It was because the body requires lots of energy to be consumed. In order to keep up with the demand of the energy consumption, a supply of blood sugar or glucose are needed to generate the biochemical energy ATP continuously.

 

The cortisol will help to request to release the stored energy(glycogen) in the liver and muscles to react with oxygen to generate the ATP for the perpetual energetic movements of the martial artists.

 

3. I believe that the babies do abdominal breathing was because their lungs were not fully developed for breathing.

 

4. Yes, those who do zhan Zhuang; RB is naturally kicks in. The bending of the legs are consuming energy which require ATP to be generated by the stored glycogen.

Edited by ChiDragon

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Hey ricemaster, I've got your confirmation from Dr Yang's material - Root of Chinese Qigong pg 130 under the Reverse section...

 

"The major problems are"

1) Tensing the chest - In the reverse training, when you inhale, the diaphragm moves down while the abdomen is withdrawing. The drawing in of the abdomen generates pressure upward, which makes it harder for the diaphragm to move down.

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