Taoist criticisms on Zen

[Aetherous]

You can change the shape as much as you want (developing compassion, transforming emotions and so forth), but the only way to have pure clear sky is to kill every single bird.

 

Lol, interesting example. I see what you mean...I guess it comes down to school or personal preference. I kind of enjoy life with all of its movement...my perspective of course doesn't represent Taoism.

[Birch]

Sorry, I'm ignorant and I can't see differences between the two.

 

Let me quote Lao-Tzu, chapter 48

 

In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired.

In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.

 

http://earlywomenmas.../tao/ch_48.html

 

I see what you mean (I think:-)). My idea of Taoism is that it deals with the transformations (including the changes to and from emptiness and within fullness) and how a person might understand these and 'make use of them' from their perspective as a person. I'm not saying either is better - although at present I do personally think Taoism is better if you're a person.

[adept]

Lol, interesting example. I see what you mean...I guess it comes down to school or personal preference. I kind of enjoy life with all of its movement...my perspective of course doesn't represent Taoism.

 

But it does represent the Dao. There's a BIG difference.

[idiot_stimpy]

No goal, no practice, no samsara and no nirvana.

 

No effort

[Reed]

Well, I'll give it a try.

 

thanks, that's very clear

 

Shunryu Suzuki was a monk/priest in the Soto Zen tradition. Soto Zen emphasizes shikantaza zazen, or just sitting over the studying of sutras and other practices.

 

Yes, it's probably why I like Suzuki: he seems a very 'when hungry, eat; when tired, sleep' etc person and more into the ordinary than into enlightenment.

 

In my humble opinion, shikantaza is quintessential wu-wei. Non-doing. Just letting everything take it's natural course without any interference, or judgement, or bias. Letting go of everything. The Dao, pure and simple.

 

That's very interesting. I was wondering if there was a link there like that.

 

It is however, much harder than it sounds and takes a hell of a lot of practice before the monkey-mind slows down, if at all.

I've tried it a few times before and become frustrated and stopped practicing. My utmost respect to anyone who sits zazen regularly over countless years. It is extremely difficult.

 

Yes, I definitely agree with that. I try and do a bit each day but it's usually only a few minutes.

 

No goal, no practice, no samsara and no nirvana.

 

Does the following make any sense or have I misunderstood things? It's something (minus the Zazen) which Huston Smith was saying in an article I was reading the other day:

 

Zazen along with things like reading/practising the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang-Tzu will help you make more efficient actions and not waste Chi whereas Taoist alchemy/meditation will help you build up and gain more Chi? Or is this too simple?

[exorcist_1699]

It is however, much harder than it sounds and takes a hell of a lot of practice before the monkey-mind slows down, if at all.

I've tried it a few times before and become frustrated and stopped practicing. My utmost respect to anyone who sits zazen regularly over countless years. It is extremely difficult.

No goal, no practice, no samsara and no nirvana.

 

 

 

By counteracting your monkey-mind with jing and qi, you can settle it in few minutes, some people even in few seconds ; secure and condense it quick , and firmly . This is why Taoist emphasize the Li and Kan trigrams... water counteracts fire, not in the sense of TCM , but in Taoist alchemical sense .

Edited October 10, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[Cheshire Cat]

I see what you mean (I think:-)). My idea of Taoism is that it deals with the transformations (including the changes to and from emptiness and within fullness) and how a person might understand these and 'make use of them' from their perspective as a person. I'm not saying either is better - although at present I do personally think Taoism is better if you're a person.

 

It is said that the Dao has thousands of gates.

 

And if we think of daoism as the way to reach the Dao (the way to reach the Way), then we hardly find something that is not the way.

[GrandmasterP]

Zazen is very hard on the knees and bottom. Alan Watts called it the "aching legs school".

All respect to those with the stamina but for others QiGong is perhaps a happier cultivation.

There can be many paths up the same mountain.

[exorcist_1699]

A Taoist saying tells us :

 

 

靜處練命, 動處練性

 

 

" While our physical eternity should be cultivated in a quiet place , our meta-Mind ( 性 ) is refined in daily activities "

 

 

That means , the Mind is not cultivated solely by sitting there straight and still , hardly is it the original , genuine meaning of Zazen , but in every moment and situation of our life ; not only in its ups and downs , but in its jealousy , fear , regrets .. all are "fuel" for refining itself into something bigger, nobler and more intelligent .

Edited October 11, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[shanlung]

Those bent on scholarly pursuit will not like this.

 

Let us recall the lessons from the HuiNeng, the 6th Patriach of Zen.

 

There might be many paths to the Tao, but reading learned texts and practising meditations meant only just that, reading of learned texts and practising of meditations.

 

Wonderful if that is only what you want.

 

Keeping it simple is probably your best bet.

 

From http://www.taoism.ne...ries/6patri.htm

 

Part 1: Shenxiu's Masterpiece

Huineng, the Sixth Patriarch of Zen, is without question one of the most influential figures in Tao philosophy, and this story may well be the most significant tale in Zen lore. Not only is it an interesting drama of how the underdog attained an exalted position against all prevailing expectations, but also the poetry contained herein teaches us some essential and fundamental Tao lessons.

When Huineng first came to the monastery of the Fifth Patriarch, he was a singularly unimpressive figure - a poor boy from the backward countryside who did not even know how to read or write. The learned monks at the monstery paid him to heed and in general considered him beneath contempt. Little did they realize that one day this scruffy-looking, low-class peasant would become their spiritual leader.

When the time came for the Fifth Patriarch to name his successor, he ordered all the disciples to express their understanding of Zen Buddhist teachings in whatever way they saw fit. The one who could demonstrate the utmost undestanding would become the next Patriarch.

 

The most learned disciple at the monastery was the head monk Shenxiu, who was an accomplished scholar. Most monks felt certain that the mantle would go to him, and that there was no way any of them would be a match for Shenxiu's intellects. Many did not even try.

To demonstrate his wisdom, Shenxiu wrote his famous poem on the wall of a temple corridor:

身是菩提樹，　The body is a Bodhi tree,

心如明鏡臺。　The mind a standing mirror bright.

時時勤拂拭，　At all times polish it diligently,

勿使惹塵埃。　And let no dust alight.

 

 

 

Bodhi means enlightenment or spiritual awakening. The bodhi tree is the tree that Gautama sat under when he became fully enlightened and attained the state of grace known as Buddhahood. This type of tree originally grew on the banks of a tributary of the Ganges and features heart-shaped leaves.

In his poem Shenxiu compares the human body to the bodhi tree. His meaning is that sitting by the tree is the human soul, which like Gautama, is capable of attaining the ultimate wisdom.

 

Also, in his poem Shenxiu compares the soul to a mirror that must be kept clean at all times. The "dust" in the poem refers to all the distractions, temptations and impure thoughts of the material world. To keep the soul clear of these unclean elements, a Zen disciple must diligently practice Tao - which is to say, engage in pursuits such as meditation, reading and reciting of scriptures, and the performance of the various rituals.

In a nutshell, Shenxiu expresses that the road of enlightenment is not an easy one. Only through hard work and never-ending diligence can one purify one's mind sufficiently to attain Buddhahood. The poem was a rallying call for the monks to fortify their resolve as they continue on this difficult spiritual journey.

All the monks were impressed. And, certain that this poem is effectively the edict from their next leader, they all memorized it and recited it as they went about their daily duties. Huineng overheard them, and that was how he learned of the existence of Shenxiu's work.

 

Part 2: Huineng's Response

Huineng understood instantly where Shenxiu fell short. There was another level of wisdom beyond that described in Shenxiu's poem. Huineng knew how to express this understanding in a poem - but being illiterate, did not know how to write it down. He ended up asking another monk to write it up on the same wall for him:

 

菩提本無樹，　Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree;

明鏡亦非臺。　The bright mirror is also not a stand.

本來無一物，　Fundamentally there is not a single thing —

何處惹塵埃。　Where could any dust be attracted?

 

When they saw this poetic response, the monks did not get it at all. But the Fifth Patriarch comprehended Huineng's meaning perfectly. Represented in these four lines was an intuitive mind more capable of grasping fundamental Tao concepts than Shenxiu's formidable intellect after decades of schooling.

Now, if the Fifth Patriarch were to announce Huineng's succession publicly and hand the reins over to him, he knew that the monks would not understand. They probably would turn on Huineng and possibly even cause him harm just to prevent him from assuming the office. Therefore, he pretended to be unimpressed with the response. In great secrecy, and in the middle of the night, he passed the symbol of his authority - a bowl and a robe - to Huineng and ordered him to flee for his life.

And so Huineng did hastily depart the monastery, with a mob of angry monks in hot pursuit. What happenned after that is another story for another time. For now, let us ask this question: what exactly was the meaning of Huineng's poem that impressed his master so much?

Huineng's central insight is in pointing out the transient or "illusory" nature of the physical world. "Bodhi has no tree," he said. Why not? Because our immortal souls are an entity apart from the physical bodies we inhabit temporarily. Wisdom, awakening and enlightenment are the attributes of this immaterial spirit, and exist with or without the body.

"Clear mirror" isn't the stand. Why not? Remember that Shenxiu compared the heart to the stand, which holds the soul - the mirror - in place. Huineng points out that this is but an artificial constraint. The soul is there whether or not there's anything holding it up. The heart - the stand - isn't required or even particularly important!

Huineng further points out that all the defilements and distortions of the material world are just as transient or illusory as these temporary mortal forms we assume. The polluting influences of the physical world come and go and cannot last, unlike the immortal soul. In other words, our essential, eternal selves are the only real entities in the universe. Money, material possessions, fineries, precious jewels... none of these are things we can take with us when we pass beyond. For all practical intents and purposes, they may as well not exist!

If one can completely come to grips with this basic truth expressed by Huineng (easier said than done... you still wanna win the Lotto and you know it), enlightenment can happen in an instant. Hence, the true path to Buddhahood isn't the direction of hard work and the acquisition of even more knowledge and scriptures, as indicated by Shenxiu. The truer path is along the road of intuitive insight, where we progress beyond mere logic and reasoning and become one with wisdom and understanding.

How can we traverse this path? With our entire being, rather than just one hemisphere of the brain. Too much intellectual sophistry leads nowhere except ever more confusing and confounding complexity. It's time we recognize the fundamentals and come to the simple yet profound realization that, hey, all this Tao and Zen stuff ain't the mystical, mysterious stuff that only inscrutible Orientals can understand! When you get right down to it, the ancient masters and sages are really trying to tell us to stick to the basics and keep it simple. Simplicity and clarifying, penetrating basic truths - these are the essence of Tao and this is the golden nugget of knowledge we have come all this way to find.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

 

aka

 

Shanlung

山 龍

Mountain Dragon

 

http://shanlung.com/

[adept]

Thank you Shanlung, that is a wonderful post.

[forestofemptiness]

I don't think you've practiced Zen, Exorcist. The idea of Zen put forth in this thread is very simplistic-- and there it remains, just an idea.

 

The only way to truly know Zen is to practice Zen, to commit to the teachings.

 

A Taoist saying tells us :

 

 

靜處練命, 動處練性

 

 

" While our physical eternity should be cultivated in a quiet place , our meta-Mind ( 性 ) is refined in daily activities "

 

 

That means , the Mind is not cultivated solely by sitting there straight and still , hardly is it the original , genuine meaning of Zazen , but in every moment and situation of our life ; not only in its ups and downs , but in its jealousy , fear , regrets .. all are "fuel" for refining itself into something bigger, nobler and more intelligent .

Edited October 11, 2012 by forestofemptiness

[GrandmasterP]

Cracking post Shanlung. All respect to you for it.

So what happened to that guy after he fled the monastery?

[shanlung]

Cracking post Shanlung. All respect to you for it.

So what happened to that guy after he fled the monastery?

 

What happened after he fled the monastery have been the grist of many Hongkong swashbuckling movies and pens of writers and would be writers. With this kind of beginning, what more can you expect. Truth and fiction blurred or may be even irrelevant.

 

HuiNeng eventually went to Po Lin Monastery in Southern China to spread the Dharma there.

 

Here is one such episode of HuiNeng shortly after he fled with the robe and bowl.

 

From http://sped2work.tri...om/huineng.html

 

The monks were jealous and ignorant, believed that the transmission was material, and decided to get back the robe and the bowl. After pursuing Hui Neng for 2 months, they found him on top of a mountain and wanted to kill him. Their leader was Hui Ming, whose lay surname was Chen. Of all the monks who pursued Hui Neng, he was the most skillful. Hui Ming had been a general of the fourth rank, and was hot tempered and rough mannered. When Hui Neng was about to be overtaken, he threw the robe and the begging bowl on a rock, quickly hid, and then said, "This robe is nothing but a symbol. What is the use of taking it away by force?" When Hui Ming arrived at the rock, he tried to pick up the robe and bowl, but was unable to do so. He cried out, "Lay Brother, Lay Brother, " (for Hui Neng had not yet formally joined the monastic order), "I come for the Dharma, not for the robe. " Hui Neng emerged from his hiding place and sat down on the rock. Hui Ming made obeisance and begged him to teach. Hui Neng said, "Since the object of your coming is the Dharma, refrain from thinking of anything and keep your mind empty. I will then teach you." They meditated together for a considerable time, then Hui Neng asked Hui Ming, "When you are thinking of neither good nor evil, at this particular moment, what is your original nature (Buddha Nature)?" As soon as Hui Ming heard this, he instantly became enlightened. Hui Ming then further asked, "Apart from those esoteric sayings and esoteric ideas handed down by the Fifth Patriarch from generation to generation, are there any other esoteric teachings?" Hui Neng replied, "What I can tell you is not esoteric. If you turn your light inwardly you will find what is esoteric within you." Hui Neng's statement was used as a Koan from then on - "what did your original face look like before you were born? " Koans represent truths that can't be understood by logic. Hui Neng's Koan cuts through concepts and speculations about one's nature. It is shocking to discover that there is no concept which can fit such a question. The shock shakes one's assumptions, and that begins the waking up process. As in his first poem, Hui Neng's original face is empty: "When you hear me speak of emptiness, don't become attached to it, especially don't become attached to any idea of it. Merely 'sitting' still with your mind vacant, you fall into notional emptiness. The boundless emptiness of the sky embraces the 'ten thousand things' of every shape and form - the sun, moon and stars; mountains and rivers; bushes and trees; bad people and good; good teachings and bad; heavens and hells. All these are included in emptiness.

The emptiness of your original nature (Buddha Nature) is just like that. It too embraces everything. To this aspect the word 'great ' applies. All and everything is included in your own original nature." Hui Neng later became The Sixth Patriarch, the founder of the Dhyana (Ch'an) School of Sudden Awaking, which emphasized that sudden Enlightenment was possible, given the right teacher and method. The Sixth Patriarch's teaching emphasize non-duality and oneness of everything. Hui Neng became the most famous Ch'an (Zen) master in Chinese history. After his death, his works were collected and classified as the only Chinese Buddhist sutra, called The Sixth Patriarch's Platform Sutra. His new school of Sudden Awaking is the only major surviving Dhyana School of Chinese Buddhism. Later, Hui Neng's disciples spread the Dharma all over Asia. Hui Neng defined Sitting Ch'an as: "In the midst of all good and evil, not a thought is aroused in the mind - this is called Sitting. Seeing into one's original nature, not being moved at all - this is called Ch'an." He taught that Sitting Ch'an should be practiced at all times, not just during formal sitting. He stressed it is the attitude of mind that is important, and not the physical posture, because truth can be found standing, walking, or lying down. In Japanese Sitting Ch'an was called Zazen.

 

Idiot on the Path of Lao-Chuang

aka

 

Shanlung

山 龍

Mountain Dragon

 

http://shanlung.com/

Edited October 13, 2012 by shanlung

[GrandmasterP]

Superb. Thank you so much Shanlung.

Riches indeed in these old stories.

I'll still stick with QiGong though. At my age moving about is much kinder to these old bones than is prolonged sitting.

:-)

[GrandmasterP]

Superb. Thank you so much Shanlung.

Riches indeed in these old stories.

I'll still stick with QiGong though. At my age moving about is much kinder to these old bones than is prolonged sitting.

:-)

[shanlung]

Superb. Thank you so much Shanlung.

Riches indeed in these old stories.

I'll still stick with QiGong though. At my age moving about is much kinder to these old bones than is prolonged sitting.

:-)

 

He( 6th Patriach HuiNeng) taught that Sitting Ch'an should be practiced at all times, not just during formal sitting. He stressed it is the attitude of mind that is important, and not the physical posture, because truth can be found standing, walking, or lying down.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[XieJia]

Superb. Thank you so much Shanlung.

Riches indeed in these old stories.

I'll still stick with QiGong though. At my age moving about is much kinder to these old bones than is prolonged sitting.

:-)

 

lol

You British got the best sense of humour.

[GrandmasterP]

And Brits end to have the weakest old bones too. I blame all that roast beef they made us eat for school dinners .

:-)

Reading Shanlung retelling these stories is akin to hearing a revered older brother teach.

A joyous experience.

[exorcist_1699]

I don't think you've practiced Zen, Exorcist. The idea of Zen put forth in this thread is very simplistic-- and there it remains, just an idea.

 

The only way to truly know Zen is to practice Zen, to commit to the teachings.

 

­I wonder whether people in the West understand what kind of a puzzle is put before them to solve.

 

Their minds are always accustomed to facts and data; they observe and measure them by apparatus and then formulate the found relations into equations. That is , they are good at reasoning and handling beings, not non-beings; hardly anything we call it nothingness or emptiness is their strength.

 

When they are told about God, they think of a father-like One, something always linked to a sense of guilty .

 

When they are told about gods, they think of the Greek ones, not the one you can nourish it yourself out of nothingness.

 

Maybe they are good at observing a flow of consciousness , but hardly can they imagine a series of mindlessness, and what kind of thing will emerge from it. " How can we chop it into instants, isolate them and get their meanings?" , their analytic minds ask , following their inertia.

 

However, as a Tang dynasty Zen master already pointed out :

 

" You can't pursue the Mind by using your mind ; you can't quest for the Buddha through your own Buddha" ("不能以心求心, 以佛求佛 " )

 

"Any move of your mind (in search of it ) is doomed to failure" ("動念即乖")

 

Try doing so is like a short-tailed kitten, whenever it moves to catch its own tail , it widens the distance and never succeeds.

 

Besides , even you succeed in grasping this instant of mindlessness and lengthen it, there is no guarantee that it not degenerates into some kind of drowsiness or unproductive void .Creative emptiness is conditional .

 

The idea from Taoism is always helpful:

 

"Don't limit your solution for taming this Mind in the realm of spirit; it is never anything isolated from our jing and qi".

 

Why not try listening to an old system which gets 2000-year experience in opposing, later assimilating this strange , untamable Buddhist Mind? Why think that you really know much better?

Edited October 15, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[GrandmasterP]

Language hinders us here in the West to some extent too.

In English verbs enact nouns every time in every sentence so we tend to presume that one thing MUST follow another. Hence logic and thereby, to a certain extent; dualism.

You get much more room for subtle nuance with pictograms.

[shanlung]

­I wonder whether people in the West understand what kind of a puzzle is put before them to solve.

 

Their minds are always accustomed to facts and data; they observe and measure them by apparatus and then formulate the found relations into equations. That is , they are good at reasoning and handling beings, not non-beings; hardly anything we call it nothingness or emptiness is their strength.

 

When they are told about God, they think of a father-like One, something always linked to a sense of guilty .

 

When they are told about gods, they think of the Greek ones, not the one you can nourish it yourself out of nothingness.

 

Maybe they are good at observing a flow of consciousness , but hardly can they imagine a series of mindlessness, and what kind of thing will emerge from it. " How can we chop it into instants, isolate them and get their meanings?" , their analytic minds ask , following their inertia.

 

However, as a Tang dynasty Zen master already pointed out :

 

" You can't pursue the Mind by using your mind ; you can't quest for the Buddha through your own Buddha" ("不能以心求心, 以佛求佛 " )

 

"Any move of your mind (in search of it ) is doomed to failure" ("動念即乖")

 

Try doing so is like a short-tailed kitten, whenever it moves to catch its own tail , it widens the distance and never succeeds.

 

Besides , even you succeed in grasping this instant of mindlessness and lengthen it, there is no guarantee that it not degenerates into some kind of drowsiness or unproductive void .Creative emptiness is conditional .

 

The idea from Taoism is always helpful:

 

"Don't limit your solution for taming this Mind in the realm of spirit; it is never anything isolated from our jing and qi".

 

Why not try listening to an old system which gets 2000-year experience in opposing, later assimilating this strange , untamable Buddhist Mind? Why think that you really know much better?

 

 

I am not even sure by focusing that their analysis get better even if they want to innuedo that is the case.

Let us not talk of Tao and Zen.

Even in the much more simple modern day task of radiologists analysis and focusing on the topic, gorillas have been totally missed.

aka

Why do radiologists miss dancing gorillas?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21466529

 

Let us not pride ourself too much that our minds are accustomed to facts and data, observation and measurements.

 

Let us not be too fixated on focusing and analysing in trying to gain

understanding of the Tao and Zen, a vastly more complex task.

We all might not see the forest for the trees, and missed gangs of dancing gorillas.

 

And not know the Tao and Zen even if they are preceded by brass bands and cheer leaders dancing away in front.

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Mark Saltveit]

Wonderful topic, thanks! And always a pleasure to read Shanlung.

[shanlung]

Since it was a hit to my web page from this thread, I thought I kick it up again for the amusement of those new here and 

did not know me earlier.

 

The Taoistic Idiot

[soaring crane]

hey this is high-caliber material. Thank you for bumping it.