Meditation is not a good way for practising

[Lao Tzu]

LZ: I can appreciate what your trying to say but it comes across as very categorical, regardless if it was sages who said it... and I should clear up one thing that nobody has called you on:

 

Zhang Ziyang as an 'ancient sage'... I don't think so. The Song Dynasty isn't 'ancient' in my view. He was a master of inner Alchemy... And the guy gave himself to Buddhism later in life and continued to write books... He is described in one of the links below as "a Song Dynasty scholar of the Three teachings (Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism)." That is probably more accurate.

 

Your error is a very simple but subtle point; your lumping everyone and every possible experience together as part of your point. Just because someone wrote something in the past which showed why meditation may not be the best (or harm-free) technique, it does not mean that everyone in the world was the intended reader of the advice and that everyone should strictly follow it. Why would someone in today's climate have a lifestyle and environment similar to that of a Song Dynasty person? If there are environmental or personal (mental, emotional) differences then you would understand why methods are different too; There are many roads which can successful assist people in their energetic and spiritual pursuits and there are many different goals or lengths one wants to go. THERE IS NOT ONE MANUAL FOR THE WORLD on how to do it.

 

If you can understand this question I ask you, then I think you will understand why your position is faulty:

 

Why do chinese tend to show better results as a patient of acupuncture than westerners?

 

In other words: What makes a chinese patient different than a western patient when it comes to eastern approaches to medicine (or other arts)?

 

1、The spirits of confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism are the same

2、The spirit of Dao is constant, will not change while the era changes. The right method has to follow the spirit, so the right method should be the same for ever.

3、Theoretically, the effects of Chinese treatment are the same between eastern and western. The only possible reason for any difference is the variation of the chinese medicine practitioners.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[konchog uma]

3、Theoretically, the effects of Chinese treatment are the same between eastern and western. The only possible reason for any difference is the variation of the chinese medicine practitioners.

 

oh i don't know, i think that the chinese patients could have had success because they were familiar with the idea of qi and acupuncture points and it was part of their culture, while to the westerner it is foreign and the mind can set up subconscious resistance to that sort of thing. Those sorts of barriers can affect the flow of qi, and thus the effectiveness of acupuncture.

 

just an idea

[Protector]

That's like saying I'm bulletproof because I never seen a gun

[konchog uma]

That's like saying I'm bulletproof because I never seen a gun

 

no thoughts and subconscious mental patterns affect the flow of qi

 

they do not affect the bulletproofness of your skin

[Lao Tzu]

oh i don't know, i think that the chinese patients could have had success because they were familiar with the idea of qi and acupuncture points and it was part of their culture, while to the westerner it is foreign and the mind can set up subconscious resistance to that sort of thing. Those sorts of barriers can affect the flow of qi, and thus the effectiveness of acupuncture.

 

just an idea

I think the idea is totally wrong.

[steve]

oh i don't know, i think that the chinese patients could have had success because they were familiar with the idea of qi and acupuncture points and it was part of their culture, while to the westerner it is foreign and the mind can set up subconscious resistance to that sort of thing. Those sorts of barriers can affect the flow of qi, and thus the effectiveness of acupuncture.

 

just an idea

Just as the mind can set up subconscious resistance, it can also set up subconscious healing.

When a patient believes a treatment is going to help, they are much more likely to experience success.

The healing effect of the mind is very powerful.

 

A slightly off topic but related question -

When we meditate (or practice qigong, yoga, etc...), is the mind perceiving the internal experience or creating it?

To flesh this point out further -

Does someone from India have an energetic structure that is different from someone from China?

If two Westerners practice different methods, one yoga and one Daoist, does their energetic body differ?

[dawei]

1、The spirits of confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism are the same

2、The spirit of Dao is constant, will not change while the era changes. The right method has to follow the spirit, so the right method should be the same for ever.

3、Theoretically, the effects of Chinese treatment are the same between eastern and western. The only possible reason for any difference is the variation of the chinese medicine practitioners.

1. I would agree that the spirits do not differentiate and don't care about any difference... but then why does Zhang Ziyang change to Buddhism later in life? Because in the manifestation of life, there is variation.

2. I hope your not trying to appeal to the idea of "Heng" and "Chang" as the same meaning as "Constant" here ? IMO, Heng means 'continuous change' or ever-changing; That can be seen as a constant, although never static; That is the Spirit of Dao.

3. Your looking at the wrong side of the coin, the doctor... and the treatment is only the medium (although abilities can vary). The issue is the 'state' of the patient, and that state is not just physical health but also mental, emotional, spiritual, etc. Eastern patients grow up in complete trust of acupuncture and its efficacy; there exists a doctor-patient trust which is beyond explanation; they are a part of the same spirit. Western patients do not approach acupuncture with the same level of trust. I wish I could share the East-West study done which showed this.

 

I taught soccer for many years and so was exposed to playing styles around the world. There is a reason that playing styles differ and why they are linked to the geograophical climate and personal temperament of the people. There is not ONE correct way to learn how to play soccer at the highest level. There may be a singular kind of soccer spirit which exists among all those who get to that level but they get there in different ways.

 

My point is not to discredit your original thread concerns or warnings. I accept that you have a Way to get there. And I would only argue that some eastern techniques work great for easterners; and that westerners sometimes need other (or additional) steps to get to the same end.

 

My Taiji teacher is a chinese acupunturist who grew up in Taiwan where he learned Qigong and Taiji. One day he invited me to go to his chinese class although it was going to be spoken in all chinese he told me to just come anyways... He taught the class much different than he did his western class. Later I spoke to him about it since I had a gut feeling why and he confirmed it... it's the same issue that the acupuncture study found; there is an intangible difference between the participants (east vs west) which shows up (ie: visible) in very mechanical western bodies attempting soft movements.

 

IMO, In our pursuit of the spiritual and energetic, we cannot leave out the physical realm as N/A; All the levels are co-existent and like concentric circles (ripples in a pond appearance). Thus, while the spirit may be singular in some respects, the manifest is varied. What works for one may not work for another so easily or quickly. Dao is diversity and I think some respect for the diversity in methods is reasonable.

[Lao Tzu]

1. I would agree that the spirits do not differentiate and don't care about any difference... but then why does Zhang Ziyang change to Buddhism later in life? Because in the manifestation of life, there is variation.

2. I hope your not trying to appeal to the idea of "Heng" and "Chang" as the same meaning as "Constant" here ? IMO, Heng means 'continuous change' or ever-changing; That can be seen as a constant, although never static; That is the Spirit of Dao.

3. Your looking at the wrong side of the coin, the doctor... and the treatment is only the medium (although abilities can vary). The issue is the 'state' of the patient, and that state is not just physical health but also mental, emotional, spiritual, etc. Eastern patients grow up in complete trust of acupuncture and its efficacy; there exists a doctor-patient trust which is beyond explanation; they are a part of the same spirit. Western patients do not approach acupuncture with the same level of trust. I wish I could share the East-West study done which showed this.

 

I taught soccer for many years and so was exposed to playing styles around the world. There is a reason that playing styles differ and why they are linked to the geograophical climate and personal temperament of the people. There is not ONE correct way to learn how to play soccer at the highest level. There may be a singular kind of soccer spirit which exists among all those who get to that level but they get there in different ways.

 

My point is not to discredit your original thread concerns or warnings. I accept that you have a Way to get there. And I would only argue that some eastern techniques work great for easterners; and that westerners sometimes need other (or additional) steps to get to the same end.

 

My Taiji teacher is a chinese acupunturist who grew up in Taiwan where he learned Qigong and Taiji. One day he invited me to go to his chinese class although it was going to be spoken in all chinese he told me to just come anyways... He taught the class much different than he did his western class. Later I spoke to him about it since I had a gut feeling why and he confirmed it... it's the same issue that the acupuncture study found; there is an intangible difference between the participants (east vs west) which shows up (ie: visible) in very mechanical western bodies attempting soft movements.

 

IMO, In our pursuit of the spiritual and energetic, we cannot leave out the physical realm as N/A; All the levels are co-existent and like concentric circles (ripples in a pond appearance). Thus, while the spirit may be singular in some respects, the manifest is varied. What works for one may not work for another so easily or quickly. Dao is diversity and I think some respect for the diversity in methods is reasonable.

I don't think that we have conflict here.

The spirit of Dao is constant, will not change while the era changes. The right method has to follow the spirit, so the right method should be the same for ever. The right method could have different manifestations. BUT, if a certain method doesn't follow the spirit, it should be wrong.

 

I think you are talking about "placebo" effect here. But it is not necessarily different between an eastern and a western in this point. It is just "possible".

[konchog uma]

I think the idea is totally wrong.

 

why

[Lao Tzu]

why

the chinese patients could have had success because they were familiar with the idea of qi and acupuncture points and it was part of their culture, while to the westerner it is foreign and the mind can set up subconscious resistance to that sort of thing. Those sorts of barriers can affect the flow of qi, and thus the effectiveness of acupuncture

Because your this "theory" has no grounds. It just comes up from your own mind.

There could be some "placbo effect" because of "believe", but not because of "familiar".

Edited December 27, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[steve]

Because your this "theory" has no grounds. It just comes up from your own mind.

There could be some "placbo effect" because of "believe", but not because of "familiar".

 

One cannot believe if one is not first familiar...

If you spend your early life exposed to a certain paradigm, you are highly likely to accept and believe in that paradigm.

Even if you let the "belief" go at some point, it is inside of your own way of perceiving the world at deep levels and can be difficult to fully purge.

[Lao Tzu]

[konchog uma]

the irony kills me.

 

the mind affects energy flow, anyone who actually HAS meditated knows this. i'm not even going to look for articles to cite because i don't care that much about this thread, or convincing you of anything mr tzu.

[Lao Tzu]

the irony kills me.

 

the mind affects energy flow, anyone who actually HAS meditated knows this. i'm not even going to look for articles to cite because i don't care that much about this thread, or convincing you of anything mr tzu.

I can understand.

And I absolutely agree that the mind affects "energy flow". But it still can be useless or/and harmful.

[dawei]

Because your this "theory" has no grounds. It just comes up from your own mind.

There could be some "placbo effect" because of "believe", but not because of "familiar".

The "theory" has ground; you maybe have simply never choosen to research or read up on it, or even try to experience it yourself.

 

I suspect you may be like many (including myself) where we study something in a partial vacuum and miss the forest for the trees. Your 100 books may tell you something about a particular method of Neidan but I sense your intuition of energetics and the wide world it includes gets discounted very easily if it does not fit to your idea. You don't really "connect the dots" so well in seeing similar applications you have learned.

 

Since your into reading, I would recommend The Biology of Belief. Then I would very much like to hear what you think. We have come a long way since the 'ancient sages' in understanding the mind/body/DNA connections.

 

Also, you have yet to explain the details of the method you gleaned from the 100 books. Why not start a thread where you discuss it and let people ask some questions so we can understand it more. In the Taoist sub forum, you could even start a translations discussion of Zhang Ziyang's book?

[Lao Tzu]

The "theory" has ground; you maybe have simply never choosen to research or read up on it, or even try to experience it yourself.

 

I suspect you may be like many (including myself) where we study something in a partial vacuum and miss the forest for the trees. Your 100 books may tell you something about a particular method of Neidan but I sense your intuition of energetics and the wide world it includes gets discounted very easily if it does not fit to your idea. You don't really "connect the dots" so well in seeing similar applications you have learned.

 

Do you know what the "theory" is?

 

 

Since your into reading, I would recommend The Biology of Belief. Then I would very much like to hear what you think. We have come a long way since the 'ancient sages' in understanding the mind/body/DNA connections.

 

Also, you have yet to explain the details of the method you gleaned from the 100 books. Why not start a thread where you discuss it and let people ask some questions so we can understand it more. In the Taoist sub forum, you could even start a translations discussion of Zhang Ziyang's book?

I think I have mentioned the method gleaned from the books.

The Dao and the right method for practice are not so easy to understand, even if one (a native chinese speaker)have read lots of original chinese books. So I do not think that translating only one book can make the guys change their minds(my translation is not good). Yes, I know they will still not change their minds if I don't do that. I just want to show them a different idea, maybe someday they can realize there is something wrong with their practice, and come back to think it over and try to read more chinese books.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[dawei]

The "theory" has been raised by at least three members so far. But I have recommended a book which I think would be good grounds for understanding more.

 

I am not sure why it is so black and white, in terms of having to change anyone's mind; if this is simply a game of one-upmanship in changing people's mind then it is not a discussion going on.

 

I am sorry to disappoint your idealism; that people here are going to one day accept what you've said and learn enough chinese (or classical chinese) to read the original... in the best case, a few might buy the translations but then we're really at the translator's idea.

 

A discussion board is for the purpose of discussing ideas not a feather count of how many we can change. If your not up to discussion on such issues that is fine but then you should realize why there is so much resistance in the topics. You will find people are open to ideas if presented and discussed. If you only want to tell another they are wrong and seek to change their idea then it is less productive.

 

There is a sub-forum to attempt translations and discuss them. It is not for the purpose of hoping to control other people's thinking and change their mind. I hope you would see this forum in a better light of discussion and be a part of growing ideas.

[Lao Tzu]

The "theory" has been raised by at least three members so far. But I have recommended a book which I think would be good grounds for understanding more.

I think you didn't notice what the "theory" is, so I asked you that question above.

I am not sure why it is so black and white, in terms of having to change anyone's mind; if this is simply a game of one-upmanship in changing people's mind then it is not a discussion going on.

I am sorry to disappoint your idealism; that people here are going to one day accept what you've said and learn enough chinese (or classical chinese) to read the original... in the best case, a few might buy the translations but then we're really at the translator's idea.

A discussion board is for the purpose of discussing ideas not a feather count of how many we can change. If your not up to discussion on such issues that is fine but then you should realize why there is so much resistance in the topics. You will find people are open to ideas if presented and discussed. If you only want to tell another they are wrong and seek to change their idea then it is less productive.

There is a sub-forum to attempt translations and discuss them. It is not for the purpose of hoping to control other people's thinking and change their mind. I hope you would see this forum in a better light of discussion and be a part of growing ideas.

I agree you point here.

But, if I know it will cost me lots of time to bring up a poor translation, and actually I do not know exactly the meaning of many sentences of the book, and my work will bring nothing. Why I do that?

[Lao Tzu]

dawei:

 

I don't want to just give my view, and I did not just say "you are wrong".

I did give my reasons, didn't I?

If I don't want to discuss more in depth, I would give my points and just leave, but I am here.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[dawei]

I agree you point here.

But, if I know it will cost me lots of time to bring up a poor translation, and actually I do not know exactly the meaning of many sentences of the book, and my work will bring nothing. Why I do that?

I generally like some of your ideas and translations so would like to engage some more thought. I researched the Zhang Ziyang writing and there are western translations that maybe someone has access to which can be shared as part of the discussion. The person who starts a thread on translating a work does not have to be the one with all the answers. And yes, there will be some disagreement over meaning and translation as the words are really code for other meanings.

 

So maybe if someone has a translation of ZZ's work or has decided to buy one based on the discussion you started, we could follow the pattern of the DDJ translations; use an existing translation and discuss it.

[Thunder_Gooch]

dawei:

 

I don't want to just give my view, and I did not just say "you are wrong".

I did give my reasons, didn't I?

If I don't want to discuss more in depth, I would give my points and just leave, but I am here.

 

 

I think I speak on behalf of most of us here. We honestly want to hear why you believe we are wrong.

 

We realize that you have trouble with translating to English.

 

Many people here are good with Chinese as well as English, and can help translate.

 

 

I for one would very much like to hear why we are wrong, and what your reasons are for saying this.

 

 

Please use Chinese to communicate if it is easier for you.

[johndoe2012]

Well the no-meditation opinion is also what drives the Actual Freedom people.

 

It seems their practise is about being happy all the time and thus short-circuit the brain somehow.

 

This is done not on the cushion but in realtime and maybe it is like Lao Tzu means?

 

http://actualfreedom.com.au/introduction/actualfreedom3.htm

 

how am I experiencing this moment of being alive?

 

is more or less their method combined with cultivating naivete.

[dawei]

I don't want to just give my view, and I did not just say "you are wrong".

I did give my reasons, didn't I?

If I don't want to discuss more in depth, I would give my points and just leave, but I am here.

I did not mean to convey that you said I was wrong; but as others have pointed out, the thread itself suggests that many are wrong in what they are doing. Let's leave this point behind.

 

I understand your feeling as I sometimes don't care to go further and just rather leave something... but ZZ's book seems an interesting take on Neidan method and this site is ideal for such discussions (or disagreements )

[Lao Tzu]

I generally like some of your ideas and translations so would like to engage some more thought. I researched the Zhang Ziyang writing and there are western translations that maybe someone has access to which can be shared as part of the discussion. The person who starts a thread on translating a work does not have to be the one with all the answers. And yes, there will be some disagreement over meaning and translation as the words are really code for other meanings.

 

So maybe if someone has a translation of ZZ's work or has decided to buy one based on the discussion you started, we could follow the pattern of the DDJ translations; use an existing translation and discuss it.

Sorry, what is DDJ?

[lifeforce]

Sorry, what is DDJ?

 

 

You gotta be kidding, right ?