Any recomended concentration meditation?

[Simple_Jack]

Wow, thanks for sharing that. This sounds like I'm already almost at the end of the journey here? That can't be right...

 

The second chi, I felt just right now when doing the breathing excersize. Thoughts seize to exist and I plunge into some kind of nothingness. My breath was slow and deep but the pauses of each breath were becoming too long so I wasn't sure if thats ok. Is it ok to have real long pauses?

 

It felt something like this:

I breath in and feel the breath fill my entire body. It is not that I focus on a specific part of the body but rather the body as a whole, including its shape. The affects of each breath gave sensations of which I was aware and felt. Not thought about but just experienced. Then everytime the breath stops, I have this void of thought and feeling. Breathing in I feel energy or more like fresh oxigen fill my blood stream and it feels great on my relaxed muscles. Very soothing. When my entire relaxed body feels filled I breath out again, letting go of the breath. Breathing out the sensations in my body calms down again, going into a void again. And this non-breath period got longer on each breath cycle to a point where it felt like every non breath was sleep, and the beginning of each new breath cycle was a waking up again. As if it suprised me every time that I breath, hard to explain.

 

Am I supose to have such long periods of non-breath between each cycle?

What that article is pointing to is a more advanced stage when the external breathing stops altogther what's called Hsi in Taoism or what's called embryonic breathing. This is after you have already transformed the body to a degree. Though what you're talking about is a common occurrence in the initial stages; it's the beginning of transmutation of jing to chi (so don't be alarmed. Just let it be.) Jing, chi, and shen can be compared to Esoteric Buddhism's bliss, clarity, and no-thought.

 

You should really look into buying Tao&Longevity since he explains pretty well the effect of cultivating stillness, has on the mind/body (though more emphasis is on the body in general.) Since chi and consciousness are linked when thoughts die down your body's real chi is activated. Likewise in anapana practice you might notice your breathing getting gradually finer, thoughts start to calm down and sometimes you'll notice your breathing stopping for a few seconds or whatever (which is usually accompanied by a cessation of thoughts.) This is showing the transmutation of jing, chi, shen. During these periods you might want to switch over to insight or "contemplation" or self-inquiry (like "Who am I.") in order to determine "who" or "what" has stopped.

 

Practicing pranayama can help to clear dirty chi/impurities in the body and open the chi channels. Pranayama really helps to gradually increase that period where your breathing stops (because pranayama is a quick way to transform the body's "wind" element.) An article on how to practice the 9 bottled wind pranayama of Tibetan Buddhism from meditationexpert.com: My link. You should definitely check out his stuff in the "Meditation section."

 

EDIT: Again I recommend you read some of those articles off of meditationexpert. Shramana Zhiyi's books will really help to figure this all out (Six Dharma Gates to The Sublime and The Essentials of Buddhist Meditation http://www.amazon.com/Six-Dharma-Gates-Sublime/dp/1935413015/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1315005122&sr=8-3.)

Edited September 2, 2011 by Simple_Jack

[Everything]

Mantra (or Tantra) is an excellent means in order to reach cessation (which you should then follow up with contemplation.) Which is why I suggested Everything look at meditationexpert, where he lists some meditations dealing with that. There's no problem in practicing more than one meditation, in fact on his site he suggests picking at least 2 to start with.

 

Everything: On amazon.com, there's two meditation manuals by Shramana Zhiyi of the Tien Tai sect. They are excellent and give detailed practice instructions on cessation-contemplation and anapana.

Cessation contemplation? Whats that? ^^

[Everything]

What that article is pointing to is a more advanced stage when the external breathing stops altogther what's called Hsi in Taoism or what's called embryonic breathing. This is after you have already transformed the body to a degree. Though what you're talking about is a common occurrence in the initial stages; it's the beginning of transmutation of jing to chi (so don't be alarmed. Just let it be.) Jing, chi, and shen can be compared to Esoteric Buddhism's bliss, clarity, and no-thought.

 

You should really look into buying Tao&Longevity since he explains pretty well the effect of cultivating stillness, has on the mind/body (though more emphasis is on the body in general.) Since chi and consciousness are linked when thoughts die down your body's real chi is activated. Likewise in anapana practice you might notice your breathing getting gradually finer, thoughts start to calm down and sometimes you'll notice your breathing stopping for a few seconds or whatever (which is usually accompanied by a cessation of thoughts.) This is showing the transmutation of jing, chi, shen. During these periods you might want to switch over to insight or "contemplation" or self-inquiry (like "Who am I.") in order to determine "who" or "what" has stopped.

 

Practicing pranayama can help to clear dirty chi/impurities in the body and open the chi channels. It really helps to gradually increase that period where your breathing stops (because pranayama is a quick way to transform the body's "wind" element.) An article on how to practice the 9 bottled wind pranayama of Tibetan Buddhism from meditationexpert.com: My link. You should definitely check out his stuff in the "Meditation section."

 

About the books recommended. I'm a total noob in meditation. All I'm familiar with is lucid dreaming. I started interest as I was in a sleep wake state where I was hallucinating while paralyzed in my bed.

So I hope that you can recommend a book that does not go into the specifics of all, assuming that I know everything. I'd rather have a broad view on things, many perspectives. So I can decide what resonates most with me from there and dig deeper into specifics that way.

Hehe, and here I was thinking that the increased length of non-breath was a lack of concentration. So its more like deep, huh?

 

Thanks for all the recommendations and links. I'll check m out as soon as I log in next time. The focus on breath is definitely a great excersize.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Everything

[C T]

I'd rather have a broad view on things, many perspectives. So I can decide what resonates most with me from there and dig deeper into specifics that way.

Good approach.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Spirit-Meditation-Erica-Brealey/dp/1844030547

Feedbacks from friends indicate that this is quite a good guide for beginners - it covers most mainstream traditions, with a few simple guided exercises included.

 

I have a copy of it myself. One quote jumped out at me while i was flipping thru its pages just now, just to see if it will suit your enquiry. Its from Unmon, a Zen guy of days gone by...

 

When you walk, just walk.

When you sit, just sit.

Whatever you do,

don't wobble.

 

[Simple_Jack]

Yes, dantien breathing does this as well. Much quicker in fact! Anapana is weak sauce, for real.

 

And having attention in an area of the body does not make it harder to merge with the void. In Taoist alchemy the body itself must merge with void, not just the mind. And in Taoism, it's the true void or Tao...not the dhyanas of Buddhism.

 

So we're talking about entirely separate things. Anyway, the point is, dantien breathing is not an inferior method. Those who say that are simply misleading others. It is in fact superior to anapana, because it includes anapana, in addition to activation of the lower dantien. In truth, it is capable of accomplishing everything, if you master it.

 

If you're inexperienced in this fact, then please keep your inexperienced opinions to yourself!

Fine whatever, brah; but I don't think you know what the usage of "void" really entails. With the way you're using it sound's like you don't actually know the actual experience of emptiness. Sounds like you're headed to attachment to one of the formless jhana states.

 

In order to reach dhyana requires a lot of physical transformation of the body. Past the completion stage of Tibetan Buddhism, past kundalini activation, past micro/macro cosmic orbits, past the initial opening of the chakras. It really is not easy in order to reach these states. It's not just a state of mental reflection of these realms.

[Simple_Jack]

Cessation contemplation? Whats that? ^^

 

Well anything can be used as cessation-contemplation practice. Just that it means cessation of thoughts where you then contemplate this state i.e "investigate" "who" or "what" is ultimately experiencing this state. The goal though is samadhi (or samadhi/prajna.)

 

I also recommend this book by Lu Kuan Yu: The Secrets of Chinese Meditation: Self-Cultivation by Mind Control As Taught in the Ch'An, Mahayana and Taoist Schools in China from amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Chinese-Meditation-Self-Cultivation-Mahayana/dp/0877280665/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1315006876&sr=1-1.) Not even 11 bucks.

 

EDIT: I also recommend 25 Doors to Meditation: A Handbook for Entering Samadhi by William Bodri from amazon.com. It details 25 different meditations you can choose from to get started.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Simple_Jack

[fiveelementtao]

I find that this requires one to already have great focus, concentration and awareness. Otherwise you fail to recognize all the negative thoughts in the first place. Atleast for me. It is not really improving concentration but rather challenging it. We have to recognize thought patterns, analyze them and reframe thoughts and pin point core believes. It really makes your head dizzy when you don't have good awareness or concentration.

You misunderstand me ( or I am communicating ineffectively). I am suggesting an easier method than trying to still your own mind...Everyone is different as I said, but, If we're talking about mantra meditation, then, The point is that, if someone is having a hard time quieting their thoughts, they can't use their mind (which produces those thoughts) to still itself. The point of mantra is to simply chant the sound current and that sound current acts like a computer hacker and goes in and targets the abberent mental patterns in your subconscious and begins to reorganize them. While you are chanting the mantra, the sound releases prana which often times will put you in a trance state which will help you relax and feel some peacefulness and actually helps you to focus. All the while the mantra (actually the deity of the mantra) is doing the work for you to clean the subconscious garbage. As time goes on and with practice, the mantra will clean out your subconscious and after years of practice, you then have the ability to achieve a still mind while meditating.

 

This misunderstanding illustrates the problem with modern western misunderstanding of meditation that most people seem to have. People think that they have to start meditation from a place of stillness. So, people try and shut off their mind and try and control their thoughts. This is an extreme oversimplification of the process. Stillness was traditionally understood to be the result of years of preliminary meditative techniques. When most people start meditating in a formal way, the first thing that happens is that the subconscious garbage comes to the surface and makes it difficult. This, unfortunately is part of the process. Mantra is an effective tool to help overcome this initial roadblock...

 

Simple Jack has given you some good resources, try those... Good luck...

[Simple_Jack]

I just got back from a 10 day Vipassana Course.

 

The first 3 and a half days entail 10-12 hours per day of seated meditation with awareness on breath, ANAPANA. After that, there is a movement into Vipassana.

 

I'm astounded by the power of Anapana. It is simple and powerful. There are no frills, just good honest work. Believe me, the work pays off.

 

The teacher, SN Goenka contends that visualization meditation and other object meditation such as mantra do well to quiet the surface conscious mind, but don't penetrate the depths. I think he speaks truth.

 

The clarity that was established with Anapana feels much more solid and full. It feels very, very natural and not at all contrived, like some object and imagination-based practices can seem.

 

If you haven't already considered doing a Vipassana course, I would. It's free, so finding the time and energy is the only factor. It looks daunting, but the is a lot of support available at these retreat centers that can't be seen, but it is definitely palpable.

 

In my experience: If concentration is what you're after, nothing beats the breath. Anapana is the cat's meow. It's solid, it's safe, and it's reliable.

 

ben

It also doesn't cause an even worse clinging or attachment to the body; which is why it the better method in the end. This is what Scotty isn't able to understand. Most of the practitioners of "Taoist alchemy" can't wrap their heads around this crucial point.

[tulku]

If you mean as in deity yoga for example (where you focus on a particular chakra or series of chakras) then yeah I agree; but those meditations entail visualization which in the end you're supposed let go of, in order to cultivate "emptiness," to reach samadhi.

 

Anapana (in the lowest levels) starts with focusing on the breath as it comes in and out of the nostrils, but (when you progress to that point) when you reach a point where (this is past the stages where you have already opened the major/minor channels and chakras and after kundalini activation) your body fills with chi and then you can let go completely (letting go or forgetting about the body i.e. the clinging to the body; since you're nearing the physical bliss and joy of the first dhyana) and enter into the first dhyana. So in that way it is a much superior meditation compared to focusing solely on the dan-tien.

 

Edit: Keep in mind this is after the state of hsi, or internal embryonic breathing; in which the external breathing through the nostrils has stopped.

 

how is it possible to stop the external breathing?

[tulku]

Wow, thanks for sharing that. This sounds like I'm already almost at the end of the journey here? That can't be right...

 

The second chi, I felt just right now when doing the breathing excersize. Thoughts seize to exist and I plunge into some kind of nothingness. My breath was slow and deep but the pauses of each breath were becoming too long so I wasn't sure if thats ok. Is it ok to have real long pauses?

 

It felt something like this:

I breath in and feel the breath fill my entire body. It is not that I focus on a specific part of the body but rather the body as a whole, including its shape. The affects of each breath gave sensations of which I was aware and felt. Not thought about but just experienced. Then everytime the breath stops, I have this void of thought and feeling. Breathing in I feel energy or more like fresh oxigen fill my blood stream and it feels great on my relaxed muscles. Very soothing. When my entire relaxed body feels filled I breath out again, letting go of the breath. Breathing out the sensations in my body calms down again, going into a void again. And this non-breath period got longer on each breath cycle to a point where it felt like every non breath was sleep, and the beginning of each new breath cycle was a waking up again. As if it suprised me every time that I breath, hard to explain.

 

Am I supose to have such long periods of non-breath between each cycle?

 

Also, isn't the scientific term for second chi simply deep sleep? Cause after such a focus on breath meditation, feel really heavy when I have to stand ip suddenly. And confused in a way, even though I was completely aware and awake in a sense.

 

Then with the third chi, It feels like a wake initiated lucid dream. You simply have let go of all of reality to switcg from external sensations of internal sensations of the dream body. The lucid dream that is like some kind of higher dimension beyond time and space where everything we think about happens. Like we are some kind of demi gods.

 

The stages of chi seem very similar to the stages of the scientific sleep cycle of light and deep sleep followed by rem-sleep

 

feels like you are going into the delta stage of meditation

[Aetherous]

Fine whatever, brah; but I don't think you know what the usage of "void" really entails. With the way you're using it sound's like you don't actually know the actual experience of emptiness. Sounds like you're headed to attachment to one of the formless jhana states.

 

Really? There's a huge disconnect between what I'm saying and what you're understanding. I'm speaking from my own experience, as well as what I've been taught by a master, and what I've read about, when it comes to "void".

 

I'm not talking about states of mind. It has nothing to do with any formless jhana state. It has nothing to do with philosophy, or speculation. Taoist alchemy is something entirely different from Buddhism, and is far superior to it.

 

In order to reach dhyana requires a lot of physical transformation of the body. Past the completion stage of Tibetan Buddhism, past kundalini activation, past micro/macro cosmic orbits, past the initial opening of the chakras. It really is not easy in order to reach these states. It's not just a state of mental reflection of these realms.

 

I see...you're just parroting Bodri and have little to no experience of your own.

 

When you accomplish all of that, you will be more capable of discussion. Until then, we're not even capable of communicating. You're misunderstanding everything I say. As such, even posting this response wasn't worth it.

 

Anyway, best of luck to you in your practices.

 

It also doesn't cause an even worse clinging or attachment to the body; which is why it the better method in the end. This is what Scotty isn't able to understand. Most of the practitioners of "Taoist alchemy" can't wrap their heads around this crucial point.

 

Oh, it's quite easy to understand. You believe that dantien breathing causes attachment to the body, due to having attention within the body during practice.

 

But your belief is plainly false!

[Aetherous]

I'd like to try that aswell if you recommend it. The meditation I did was focusing on the entires body relation to the breath. It felt like the natural thing to do. As my entire body was breathing all together. Including the sensations of fresh blood flowing troughout all of my body and then the non breath of tranquility or void.

 

On what specific part of the body do I focus when meditating dantien? How should I focus on it.

 

The specific place can be anywhere behind the navel to 3 finger widths below it. When you find the right place, you might notice increased heat in the belly, sweating, tingles going up the spine or at the crown, the eyebrows twitching, etc.

 

Don't force the attention or try to push energy into the area.

 

It's best to have a teacher in person.

[Simple_Jack]

Really? There's a huge disconnect between what I'm saying and what you're understanding. I'm speaking from my own experience, as well as what I've been taught by a master, and what I've read about, when it comes to "void".

 

I'm not talking about states of mind. It has nothing to do with any formless jhana state. It has nothing to do with philosophy, or speculation. Taoist alchemy is something entirely different from Buddhism, and is far superior to it.

 

 

 

I see...you're just parroting Bodri and have little to no experience of your own.

 

When you accomplish all of that, you will be more capable of discussion. Until then, we're not even capable of communicating. You're misunderstanding everything I say. As such, even posting this response wasn't worth it.

 

Anyway, best of luck to you in your practices.

 

 

 

Oh, it's quite easy to understand. You believe that dantien breathing causes attachment to the body, due to having attention within the body during practice.

 

But your belief is plainly false!

Then try to describe this to me the best way you can: What has your teacher taught you about this "void?" What is your experience of this "void?" How is it outside the experience of consciousness?

[Aetherous]

If you wish to begin understanding, then research Taoist alchemy. Attempt to understand and experience. Until then, best of luck to you.

[fiveelementtao]

Mantra (or Tantra) is an excellent means in order to reach cessation (which you should then follow up with contemplation.) Which is why I suggested Everything look at meditationexpert, where he lists some meditations dealing with that. There's no problem in practicing more than one meditation, in fact on his site he suggests picking at least 2 to start with.

 

Everything: On amazon.com, there's two meditation manuals by Shramana Zhiyi of the Tien Tai sect. They are excellent and give detailed practice instructions on cessation-contemplation and anapana.

Good suggestions...

Edited September 3, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[tulku]

I'm not talking about states of mind. It has nothing to do with any formless jhana state. It has nothing to do with philosophy, or speculation. Taoist alchemy is something entirely different from Buddhism, and is far superior to it.

 

 

The fact that you can differentiate between buddhism and taoism and even claim one is better than the other is a clear sign of your ignorance and your lack of progress in reaching the void.

 

if you have truly become one with the void, you will realize that all roads lead to void

Edited September 3, 2011 by tulku

[Aetherous]

Sure, my personal experience is a sign of ignorance!

 

Peace out, kids...

[LBDaoist]

that visualization meditation and other object meditation such as mantra do well to quiet the surface conscious mind, but don't penetrate the depths.

 

The "surface conscious mind" seems like a very high level generalization. What specifically do you think of when you mention that. Can you give an example.

 

The same can be said for "penetrat(ing) the depths". Again, that seems high level. What specifically do you mean. How would you contrast that with the surface mind?

 

When I read what you wrote, I consider the difference between the awareness of conscious thoughts, such as visualization and internal dialogue.. versus a deeper awareness of the sensations in the body.

 

Where do you draw the distinction between the two?

[LBDaoist]

Taoist alchemy is something entirely different from Buddhism, and is far superior to it.

 

That is an interesting statement. Where do you derive that from?

 

In my own experiences, studying Buddhism after spending years focused on Taoism seriously deepened my understanding of Taoism. It seemed to me as if both schools were speaking of the same thing, yet coming at it from different perspectives.

 

The Buddhists seemed to focus mostly on the mind and thoughts, where as the Taoists focus mostly on the body and sensations. On a deeper level, both the awareness the mind puts on sensation, and the awareness that the mind puts on thoughts can be unraveled to return to the root... the essence of the mind, and that from which the mind sprouts.

 

Both are tools for self contemplation, reflection and provide an earnest practitioner with a path to follow that will point them at the spirit.

 

In the end, it comes down to the body as a temple for the spirit and making that temple as conducive of a vessel for the spirit to inhabit as possible. Whether we clear the mind of distracting thoughts, or clear the channels of obstructions to the flow of qi... it requires many tools to reach clarity.

 

Yet once clarity has been obtained, the tools seem unnecessary. And they are, at that point. Until that point, they are all sign posts along the path, clues to the astute traveler.

 

Only the ego differentiates them and elevates one over the other. A true master maintains a full set of tools. Not because the master needs them, but because they are useful to the students.

[LBDaoist]

Am I supose to have such long periods of non-breath between each cycle?

 

The breath should be continuous and never held. There might feel like periods where you are not actively focused on trying to breath, but you are breathing anyway. At no time should you ever hold your breath.

 

In my practice I find that at times on very long inhalations, my mind becomes so attuned to the pulsating body that I lose track of the actual inhalation. Conversely I seem to remain fully aware of the exhalation no matter what else happens. In "perfect" practice the inhalation and exhalation should be equal in length and quality.

[Aetherous]

Where do you derive that from?

 

My experience.

 

I'd rather offer help to those who are interested, than explanations to those who aren't. I'm trying to duck out of this topic, since the truth is painful to those still trying to form their own opinions. But I'll say this...

 

Buddhist enlightenment is the first step in some schools of Taoist alchemy! It's a cultivation of the body, mind and spirit...not just the body and its sensations.

 

Okay leaving this topic now for real. It's not the place. Peace.

[ChiDragon]

The breath should be continuous and never held. There might feel like periods where you are not actively focused on trying to breath, but you are breathing anyway. At no time should you ever hold your breath.

 

In my practice I find that at times on very long inhalations, my mind becomes so attuned to the pulsating body that I lose track of the actual inhalation. Conversely I seem to remain fully aware of the exhalation no matter what else happens. In "perfect" practice the inhalation and exhalation should be equal in length and quality.

 

You are becoming the master in breathing. I am with you all the way.

[effilang]

That sounds familiar.

 

How long to do this before I see improvement in concentration? I'd take that its only beneficial if I continue to do this or should I move on to some other form of meditation after I've done this for a certain amount of time?

 

I recommend you start every meditation session by following the breath. It basically lassos the daily mind and calms it down enough that it can be used for meditation. It is a primer.

 

Following the breath will help you bring your attention to the Lower Dan Tien. Once enough awareness and concentration is dedicated exclusively to the Lower Dan Tien region, your breath will become extremely slow, in fact sometimes you will realize you're not breathing when you know you should be breathing (but you won't feel like breathing, no gasping or discomfort) and it may startle you, but this is a good indication that you are achieving concentration through following the breath.

 

Even in this state however your thoughts can still be somewhat chaotic. You will however be much less prone to indulge them in this state and be able to let them go as soon as you identify they have a hold of your concentration. Further from this state you will reach a point where there are no thoughts, just emptiness and you will feel like your body is disappearing, you will feel a tremendous calm, and expansion and a contraction at the same time, like you're the smallest thing but at the same time big enough to fill the universe.

 

Once you reach the state that your both your in-breath, cessation and exhalation are almost seamless, as one smooth process and the breath isn't breathing to sustain the body any longer, but to sustain the mind, then you can stop following the breath.

 

This can happen in 30 mins, it can happen after an hour. It depends on you i guess.

[effilang]

Yes, dantien breathing does this as well. Much quicker in fact! Anapana is weak sauce, for real.

 

And having attention in an area of the body does not make it harder to merge with the void. In Taoist alchemy the body itself must merge with void, not just the mind. And in Taoism, it's the true void or Tao...not the dhyanas of Buddhism.

 

 

Scotty,

 

You crackin me up man

 

 

[NeiChuan]

ChiDragon,

 

 

 

Shut up, dude!!!! I think you should be banned for once again spreading disinformation and trolling. It's your entire purpose here. I am reporting your utterly pointless post and praying to any gods that are listening to have you permanently removed from this forum!

 

 

Think that response is a bit hardcore for what he said. Just disagrees.

 

Anyway I'd recommend anapansati meditation, in simple terms counting breaths. Look it up, there are different ways for different steps. It Really helps. But don't start to fast.

 

Totally disagree with people who say it doesn't help, they obviously went into the practice treating it as though it were garbage. You do that with any practice and all you'll receive is garbage.. Actual Effort is needed.

 

 

 

Neichuan

Edited September 3, 2011 by NeiChuan