Pigeon Toed Standing Posture

[Trunk]

Curious of anyone's experience w/ this...

 

 

 

And here's the joke version which maybe(?) makes some valid points about martial application - but my impression is that, aside from that, the posture also has interesting therapeutic action.

 

[joeblast]

that second one is a pretty good joke, it is either mocking those who dont comprehend the application, or...whomever filled in the funny parts is serious and doesnt understand the application

 

 

destroy lateral movement, take hips out of equation, chin forward, all display "I took a look at a drawing and concluded it couldnt possibly be effective."

 

easier to push over...heh, try that on somebody who can do the posture well and you find that's not the case at all. I tried to push Lin over once while doing a bit of this or that regarding this stance, it was utterly futile

[doc benway]

When I studied Wing Chun, our stance was more subtle.

Toe in just a bit, knees isometrically pulling inward just a bit, pelvis tucked just a bit. Not too much different that a natural stance in Taijiquan.

Some styles really seem to exaggerate the stance, for better or worse.

[Trunk]

Ok, so what did you feel the effects to be?, in your own body.

 

p.s.

My assumption is that the person who wrote the joke version did it as a friendly joke to an inside crowd who appreciated the merits of the posture.

[Sloppy Zhang]

In the upper right, when it describes how, from a proper stance, one can move, I think that's the answer right there.

 

If you wanted to move from one side to the other, you could move your body and your foot would already be in position. And since your foot is planted, you could stay "inside".

 

I remember reading an article from someone at the Bujinkan (waits for laughter to subside from the serious MAist crowd), and he was talking about just how little you actually had to move your body to get off the trajectory of a line. His example was to stand in front of a mirror, or have a friend take a staff and point it at your chest. Then all you had to do to really get off the line from center was to turn your torso.

 

Of course, there are lots of other factors, like it not being a straight shot, etc. But the point is that a novice will make big moves and try to get "away" from danger, but tactically that will leave them always on the outside. A master will only move just enough to avoid the hit, which means they stay close enough to counter.

 

So I'm guessing that, with the Wing Chun stance, let's say you wanted to move to the right, because let's say say somebody is throwing a right punch right at you, all you would have to do is move your body and keep your right foot planted. You would avoid the strike just enough, but stay on the inside to trap/counter/do the macarena.

 

But of course the deadly assumption with that is that they are going to throw a committed attack. As in, commit with their body and their momentum, or at least have their body close enough to you. I don't think it would hold up so well against stuff like jabs, outside leg kicks, or stuff like that.

 

It'd be interesting to see some "moving" positions out of Wing Chun. But I guess if you're fighting in a closed space as per the original design (air planes, phone booths that nobody uses anymore, etc) then you wouldn't have need with that.

 

So I guess considering the close range, cramped conditions conditions of Wing Chun, the stance makes perfect sense. From the perspective of the octagon? Parking lot? Ice skating rink? Not so much.

 

Don't know about the intended or unintended energetic effects of the body. With Wing Chun, I don't know how much internal stuff was thought about during its conception or its growth. I'm sure someone has analyzed it sometime or cross trained and experienced some stuff. But I don't know if that's a priority in Wing Chun.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[al.]

Hiya

 

There is a great qigong form that utilizes this stance with the legs.

 

There seem to be different names/variances of the form, it appears in Master Shou-Yu Liang's 'qigong empowerment' book, and is also taught by Ken Cohen, and also Maste Xie Li over in Singapore.

 

Basically it uses this posture in static standing like jamjong. My take on it is whereas in martial arts practices, the posture and standing gradually build up the muscles on the top of the thighs and slowly the practitioner can hold more and more weight higher and higher on the legs and up into the kwa, in this type of standing it makes it easier to pull the weight up onto the higher parts of the leg. And the more one can do this, the greater the 'qi-building' capacity is. As an aside, not only does the soas muscle travel from this area of the thighs, up through the dantien and connect to the lower lumbars, but apparently there is a higher level of mitochondria in these muscles too....

 

Hope this makes some sense.. I guess it's not just the posture really but also how the muscles are engaged in the posture...

 

a

[ChiDragon]

This is a special horse stance only, and only, in Wing Chun. The pigeon toed standing posture gives the practitioner a higher traction on the ground to counteract a pulling force. Also, it will naturalize the pushing force of the practitioner when pushing his opponent. Literally speaking, it locks the feet on the ground, to keep the balance of the body.

Edited June 17, 2011 by ChiDragon

[yiannis]

This stance - and slight variations - is also encountered in Hung Gar, White Crane, Chow Gar and in some styles of Okinawan karate. It is a very common stance in Southern Kung Fu styles.

 

It is NOT a fighting stance. The main purpose of this stance is to develop the body structure that is used by the Wing Chun practitioner. It is not used on its own, but in conjuction with the movements of the 1st form.

 

Apart from Chu Shong Tin (who had a Tai Chi background), not many other lineages use this stance for internal development. Hawkins Cheung has said that Yip Man used to sit in this stance holding the Tan Sao hand out, for more than 45 minutes at a time.

[yiannis]

Below is Yip Man practising this stance.

 

 

This is the general fighting stance as shown by Yip Man (on the right)

 

[Oolong Rabbit]

The stance is in some of the crane wudang animal qigong forms I learned. The crane symbolizes longevity, and I think the way the stance works the kua may be related to that but I can't remember the details.

[Oolong Rabbit]

I was reluctant to post this because I am not quite sure if Happeh is a genius or a madman. I think he raises an interesting point though. What happens when you urinate? Kidneys tense slightly, muscles in the kua tense slightly, and your body expels toxins outward/downward. I suspect the crane stance is tensing the same muscles, sealing the jing and redirecting it upwards.

 

[RobB]

I've come across the lower body elements of this stance in Bagua. Its fundamental in some of the jibengong I've practiced and is used in 2 of the 4 basic postures of our single palm change. The feeling is a inward spiralling and winding from the hips down to the feet. An aim is to create a really strong connection to the ground. When I started practicing it it felt very constricting around the pelvis but the more time I've spent on it it's really opening up the hips and enabling a relaxed connected lower body.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

I was reluctant to post this because I am not quite sure if Happeh is a genius or a madman. I think he raises an interesting point though. What happens when you urinate? Kidneys tense slightly, muscles in the kua tense slightly, and your body expels toxins outward/downward. I suspect the crane stance is tensing the same muscles, sealing the jing and redirecting it upwards.

 

There is a fallacy in the video. The reason was that when the man stands with his knees bent, the legs of the triangle should stop at the knees from the toes because the legs are not straight. This stance will keeping the man in balance from pushing and pulling, so he won't fall. Why he won't fall...??? If you have some lessons in kinetics, you will know that each bending leg has two pivot points. The points are at the ankles and the knees. You have two force on the legs. At all times, you have a resultant force going toward to front of the body on the lower legs; and an opposite resultant force on the upper legs going toward the back of the body. The two resultant forces are counteracting to keep the body in balance. However, the woman in the urinated position, most of her body weight is in the backside. If somebody comes along and give a push, then she will drop and sit on the toilet.

[Oolong Rabbit]

There is a fallacy in the video. The reason was that when the man stands with his knees bent, the legs of the triangle should stop at the knees from the toes because the legs are not straight. This stance will keeping the man in balance from pushing and pulling, so he won't fall. Why he won't fall...??? If you have some lessons in kinetics, you will know that each bending leg has two pivot points. The points are at the ankles and the knees. You have two force on the legs. At all times, you have a resultant force going toward to front of the body on the lower legs; and an opposite resultant force on the upper legs going toward the back of the body. The two resultant forces are counteracting to keep the body in balance. However, the woman in the urinated position, most of her body weight is in the backside. If somebody comes along and give a push, then she will drop and sit on the toilet.

 

I think he was refering more to what's going on internally rather than saying the female squatting to urinate is a solid kung fu stance. At least that's my take .

[ChiDragon]

Yes, thanks. I was more interested in the concept than its classification.

 

The legend why it was called Wing Chun. The woman who invented this style is because her name was called Wing Chun. Women are known to be weaker than men. So she invented the method was to fight someone in a close contact distance. The main goal is to get the opponent off balance by moving the striking body part of the opponent slightly away from the defender's vulnerable area. The Wing Chun practitioner use the hands to strike by making a swift move before the opponent was even aware of it.

 

This falls into the concept of the Yin overcomes the Yang. The woman was being the Yin and man was being the Yang.

Edited June 20, 2011 by ChiDragon

[zerostao]

if anyone of you have ever walked up on iron beams high in the sky.

high rise construction fun.

you will notice all the other guys up there walk in one of 2 ways.

they either walk like they are doing xingyiquan or else the walk pigeon toed.

and if you are up there you need to find out quickly which of these works best for you.

[joeblast]

Yo

Time for lengthy typing again.

 

This Stance how ridicolus look like has its use.

But how the stance looks is more to correct the general habit of using vastus lateralis of the quadriceps femoris muscle in the daily life to much causing a weakening in the vastus medialis. When walking one see that people have the not point forward but have the feet also rotate to the outside more like Charly Chaplins posture.

 

Vastus medialis at the more inside of the upper leg part cause a rotation inward and slightly upward which also only work really good when ones leg is bend but the stronger it is bend the more one use the outer part of Vastus lateralis. It is a change of inward and outward roatation while bending and stretching the leg. So mainly on muscle is underdeveloped of the linear thinking and the people bend or have the outward rotation and slowing down the movements.

Excellent, I had those thought-impressions earlier but didnt spend enough time on it for the word generation to have occurred BKF made a good point on this in energy gates while teaching the swings.

[Trunk]

Thought I'd add an illustration to your fine post.

This Stance how ridicolus look like has its use.

But how the stance looks is more to correct the general habit of using vastus lateralis of the quadriceps femoris muscle in the daily life to much causing a weakening in the vastus medialis. ..

 

My (brief) experience w/ this is at least somewhat related, and is limited to internals (no martial experience w/ this, not interested).

 

The pigeon stance (that's what I'm calling it), ime:

- opens the hip joints in an odd way that I'd not previously experienced

- somehow slightly pulls on the musculature attached to the sacrum, 'opens' it

- the "holding the ball" (as illustrated) taps into something energetic

- generally opens the yin channels of the legs (Sp, Kid, Liv)

 

 

I'd caution not to bend too far, as it can strain the knees and disconnect the lower legs... but if you engage (not strain) the knees then it can prompt whole-leg integration.

 

So, to broaden the view, imo:

- pigeon standing opens the inside (yin) channels of the legs

- some other stances that emphasize weight on the lateral edges of the feet opens the outside (yang) channels of the legs. (CK Chu's system does some of this.)

- Matsuo's standing "Kunlun Dragon Posture" emphasizes K1.

 

Inner, outter, center.

All important.

 

- Trunk

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[zerostao]

just for the heck of it , saturday i stood in a pigeon toed stance for awhile.

i put on a long music cd to time out. 20 songs.

so the first 10 songs i had feet about shoulder width apart. the final 10 songs i narrowed my stance to hip width.

also i was rotating my waist to the left and then to the right and letting my arms swing freely. i just focused on the stance, my rooting, and having a relaxed upper

body . sometimes one arm would wrap around my lower back and other times it would not.

i am gonna try it again a few more times. i kinda liked it.

[Trunk]

Note:

I looked up "pidgeon" and oops!, it has no "d"

so I corrected spelling in the title and in my posts to "pigeon".

TTBs link to this thread changed spelling accordingly, if any of you have it bookmarked.

[sifusufi]

just for the heck of it , saturday i stood in a pigeon toed stance for awhile.

i put on a long music cd to time out. 20 songs.

so the first 10 songs i had feet about shoulder width apart. the final 10 songs i narrowed my stance to hip width.

also i was rotating my waist to the left and then to the right and letting my arms swing freely. i just focused on the stance, my rooting, and having a relaxed upper

body . sometimes one arm would wrap around my lower back and other times it would not.

i am gonna try it again a few more times. i kinda liked it.

 

Good way to time my ZZ as well.

 

BKF had mentioned when standing pigeon toed he has his elbows down and grasps his hands at the heart or thyroid.

 

Thanks for the kewl illustrations Trunk

 

I understand Jeffery Yuen has some hip opening drills I would love to try as well.