[TTC Study] Chapter 40 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Everything]

If weakness leaves you vulmerable, then strength will deprive you of love.

 

The Tao somehow seems to prefer flexibility and softness over hardness. If strength means hardness to you, then you should prefer weakness. If strength means durable and flexible, then you should prefer strength. These abstractions change over the course of our live from meaning and leaves us confused. I see them merely as encoded words, not yet translated into usable tools.

Power is strength, power is efficient energy use. Avoiding agression is power, avoiding agression is strength. When killing an animal is should be done in a way that is responsible. The powerful now requires wisdom to deal with their power responsibly. You should not let the animal bleed to death with a knife merely out of efficiency. This means you choose to live in a destructive world. Strength cannot be used without wisdom, those two together form politics.

 

So for me weakness is hard, strength is soft.

[ChiDragon]

I wonder if that last word, "nothingness", is valid. Being is born from non-being, (Mystery, potential) not nothingness.

天下萬物生於有，有生於無

It is matter of semantics, translation and interpretation.

 

This was all started with the characters of 無(wu2) and 有(you3).

A direct translation for an ordinary Chinese language:

無(wu2): none; nothingness

有(you3): to have; having

 

Western translation:

無(wu2): non-being; non-exist

有(you3): being; exist

 

By the ordinary Chinese definition, 無(wu2) doesn't say that something does not exist but only implies that something does not exist.

 

Same thing goes to 有(you3), in order to have something to be existed, we must to have something that is tangible.

 

天下萬物生於有，有生於無

Under heaven, all things are engendered from 有(you3), and 有(you3) was engendered from 無(wu2).

 

In the Tao Te Ching, LaoTze used these two terms in his own peculiar way. Thus by his definition:

無(wu2) is something that exists, but invisible, with a high potential power to create. Since there were no other characters that he can use, therefore he used this character and created his own definition.

 

有生於無

Being was engendered from nothingness.

That's what it says exactly in the esoteric classic text. The next thing is a matter of understand and interpretation.

 

The interpretation would be:

The manifested Tao came from his invisible state that has a high potential power to create.

To understand the Tao Te Ching was not as easy as it seems. To interpret the true meaning of the Tao Te Ching is not by semantics of the translation of another language alone.

 

If people understand and interpreted Chapter 1 properly, then it would make it easier to understand the rest of the chapters.

 

This is the consensus by the knowledgeable native scholars for the interpretation of Chapter 1 .

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,

8. Both are regarded as fathomless; the most mysterious of the mysterious;

9. The gate of all changes.

 

 

PS...

Invisible and visible are the closest English words that I can come across for the characters of 無(wu2) and 有(you3) to transmit the theme of this chapter.

 

Choice of dyad for 有(you3)/無(wu2): being/non-being

Non-being seems it doesn't have the meaning which implies that something exists but invisible. It seems it carries the thought that nothing was existed at all.

Edited June 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Choice of dyad for 有(you3)/無(wu2): being/non-being

Non-being seems it doesn't have the meaning which implies that something exists but invisible. It seems it carries the thought that nothing was existed at all.

 

As I have mentioned before, I am at a disadvantage for not being able to read Chinese so I must rely on the translations of others.

 

But even still, if a concept does not seem to be logical (in my mind) I will try to find words that cause it to be logical in my mind.

 

The word "invisible" is almost always exchanged with the word "Mystery" in my mind. So we have being, the Manifest, and we have non-being, the Mystery.

 

We can know the Manifest - we cannot 'know' the Mystery. (But we can experience the Mystery.)

 

I don't have to deal with the thought that something was created from nothing as it is my understanding and belief that everything that is, is, always has been, and always will be. "Everything" simply changes and transmutes from 'no-thing' to 'thing' and back to 'no-thing'.

[ChiDragon]

Welcome back. I missed my counter part.....

 

The word "invisible" is almost always exchanged with the word "Mystery" in my mind. So we have being, the Manifest, and we have non-being, the Mystery.

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.

 

 

We can know the Manifest - we cannot 'know' the Mystery. (But we can experience the Mystery.)

6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

 

We experience the Mystery of Tao(Invisible) and the Manifest of Tao(Visible).

Yes, I'll add this part to my mental collection...

 

 

I don't have to deal with the thought that something was created from nothing as it is my understanding and belief that everything that is, is, always has been, and always will be.

Ah, the eastern classic text was written with metaphors. The classic text, sometimes, does not say what it means nor meant what it says.

 

 

"Everything" simply changes and transmutes from 'no-thing' to 'thing' and back to 'no-thing'.

 

Yes, westerners do spell things precisely as what was in their thoughts.

Edited June 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

The word "invisible" is almost always exchanged with the word "Mystery" in my mind. So we have being, the Manifest, and we have non-being, the Mystery.

 

We can know the Manifest - we cannot 'know' the Mystery. (But we can experience the Mystery.)

 

I don't have to deal with the thought that something was created from nothing as it is my understanding and belief that everything that is, is, always has been, and always will be. "Everything" simply changes and transmutes from 'no-thing' to 'thing' and back to 'no-thing'.

I don't really agree in the sense that invisible is more like unseen; it does not have to be mystery. Air is invisible yet there is no mystery to it. The word "Wu" does not necessary carry the idea of mystery but more like a state. Later words in the chapter may be trying to convey mystery but I think it's more like "the mystery that it all arose"; we don't really know the process by which it occurred but we know it occurred; so no mystery there (ie: we are here).

[Procurator]

 

 

 

Ah, the eastern classic text was written with metaphors. The classic text, sometimes, does not say what it means nor meant what it says.

 

 

 

 

Yes, westerners do spell things precisely as what was in their thoughts.

must be because they were written in chinglish too

[ChiDragon]

must be because they were written in chinglish too

 

Yes, a Chinese writes it in Chinese; and an English writes it in English. However, may be a naturalized citizen writes it in Chinglish if you would like to put it that way. So be it. hehehehe

 

PS...

I used to call the Chinglish the Sino-English or terse English. Thanks for the new term anyway...!!!

Edited June 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[johndoe2012]

Yes, westerners do spell things precisely as what was in their thoughts.

 

Were you kidding?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Metaphors-We-Live-George-Lakoff/dp/0226468011/ref=pd_sim_b_3

 

The now-classic Metaphors We Live By changed our understanding of metaphor and its role in language and the mind. Metaphor, the authors explain, is a fundamental mechanism of mind, one that allows us to use what we know about our physical and social experience to provide understanding of countless other subjects. Because such metaphors structure our most basic understandings of our experience, they are "metaphors we live by"-metaphors that can shape our perceptions and actions without our ever noticing them.

 

In this updated edition of Lakoff and Johnson's influential book, the authors supply an afterword surveying how their theory of metaphor has developed within the cognitive sciences to become central to the contemporary understanding of how we think and how we express our thoughts in language.

Edited June 15, 2011 by wtm

[ChiDragon]

Were you kidding?

 

This is only my experience in a specific case and sometimes in general.

[Marblehead]

Ah, the eastern classic text was written with metaphors. The classic text, sometimes, does not say what it means nor meant what it says.

 

Yep. And that is why Lao Tzu is oftentimes referred to as a master of paradox.

 

Things are not always what they, at first, appear to be.

[Marblehead]

I don't really agree in the sense that invisible is more like unseen; it does not have to be mystery. Air is invisible yet there is no mystery to it. The word "Wu" does not necessary carry the idea of mystery but more like a state. Later words in the chapter may be trying to convey mystery but I think it's more like "the mystery that it all arose"; we don't really know the process by which it occurred but we know it occurred; so no mystery there (ie: we are here).

 

Excellent observations.

 

No, I wouldn't place 'air' in the category of invisible or Mystery because we can percieve air with our physical senses.

 

Yes, there are many who do not agree with my equating wu with Mystery and I willingly accept the disagreeing.

 

From a Scientific point of view there really is no mystery. I agree. The big bang occurred from Singularity. What caused Singularity? Now that is a mystery. But mystery (lower 'm') is not the same as Mystery (upper 'M'). In my mind these are two different concepts.

[Aaron]

My translation of chapter 40

 

One who returns to the Way will change their position.

One who is weak,

One who's Way is put to use everwhere under the heavens,

his is a living thing.

 

To have life

is to live and grow

even when it vanishes.

[Marblehead]

My translation of chapter 40

 

One who returns to the Way will change their position.

One who is weak,

One who's Way is put to use everwhere under the heavens,

his is a living thing.

 

To have life

is to live and grow

even when it vanishes.

 

Ooopps. I think that missed the point. (Cycles and reversion)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Chapter 40

 

John Wu

 

The movement of the Tao consists in Returning.

The use of the Tao consists in softness.

All things under heaven are born of the corporeal:

The corporeal is born of the Incorporeal.

 

 

English/Feng

 

Returning is the motion of the Tao.

Yielding is the way of the Tao.

The ten thousand things are born of being.

Being is born of not being.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

"Reversal" is the movement of the Dao;

"Weakness" is the function of the Dao.

The things of the world originate in being,

And being originates in nonbeing.

 

 

 

There's that favorite word of mine again: "Weakness"

 

Question? Comments?

 

 

This translation by Shaman Flowing Hands illustrates the Taoist principle to me and, whether people accept its alignment to the chapter, is a very necessary principle to to Dance With The Tao. Just want to put this up:

 

 

CHAPTER 40

The Dao is a constant flowing source of creativity; for everything is born of it,

and then returns to it.

Observe this motion of giving and taking, for the Dao gives as well as takes.

It is an on-going process.

If man gave as much as he took, the world would be in more balance.

But because he only knows about his own needs, he becomes blind to the whole.

And so he upsets the balance

 

 

Opinions? Not word for word I presume, but an insightful translation of the essence of the chapter

[lienshan]

This translation by Shaman Flowing Hands illustrates the Taoist principle to me and,

 

CHAPTER 40

The Dao is a constant flowing source of creativity; for everything is born of it,

and then returns to it.

My Guodian chapter 40 translation:

 

The traditionalist reconstructs Dao

The newcomer will use Dao

The matter of the world grows out of to have, grows from to not have.

 

 

Flowing Hands "born of it and returns to it" is a mechanic world-view,

while Laozi's use of you (to have) and wu (to not have) is dynamic.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

My Guodian chapter 40 translation:

 

The traditionalist reconstructs Dao

The newcomer will use Dao

The matter of the world grows out of to have, grows from to not have.

 

 

Flowing Hands "born of it and returns to it" is a mechanic world-view,

while Laozi's use of you (to have) and wu (to not have) is dynamic.

 

no difference in the implicit meaning, which is what Shaman Flowing Hands eloquently displays in his translation

[deci belle]

[lienshan]

no difference in the implicit meaning,

which is what Shaman Flowing Hands eloquently displays in his translation

I try translate/explain the difference more precisely:

 

The Dao is a constant flowing source of creativity; for everything is born of it,

and then returns to it.

Observe this motion of giving and taking, for the Dao gives as well as takes.

It is an on-going process.

The traditionalist reconstructs Dao.

The newcomer is going to use Dao.

The matter of the world grows out of existing growth from having no

 

There's by purpose no punctuation mark after having no

There's a missing name (noun); not namable "growth" but unnamable _ which title is Dao.

 

The difference between Flowing Hands and Laozi:

 

The character (the word) Dao is to Flowing Hands a name (a noun), a something giving and taking.

The character (the word) Dao is to Laozi a title (an adjective/a verb), a nothing but a title.

 

My own reading of this short but deep Guodian version of the chapter:

 

The world has the title Mother and the matter has the title Child.

The traditionalist mother is pregnant with a newcomer in her womb.

Edited July 29, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

The "weakness" is the Virtue of Receptivity.

 

Damn!!!

 

You have gotten closer to the significance of this word in Taoism than anyone else I know of, including myself.

 

You done good!!!

[lienshan]

The "weakness" is the Virtue of Receptivity.

Receptivity is the weakness of Virtue.

 

Corresponds to "the goodness of Virtue" in another chapter, but that's maybe another story?

[Marblehead]

Receptivity is the weakness of Virtue.

 

No. No. No! You got that one all wrong. Hehehe.

 

Corresponds to "the goodness of Virtue" in another chapter, but that's maybe another story?

 

Yes, that's another story but yes, 'the goodness of Virtue' (the Virtue of Tao) is valid but it can be grossly misused.

[ChiDragon]

The "weakness" is the Virtue of Receptivity. One can only respond to other. Spontaneity is not ego-centric.

 

Response is giving the world what it wants at the right time according to the situation— this is not the same as going along.

 

Thank you. This is the best of my understand and it was nicely putted into English. Again, LaoTze uses the term "weakness" in reverse negative logic. The compound characters "弱者" means somebody or something is weak which implies that one is soft. Thus a soft person is very receptive.

 

Since,

1. 反者道之動

2. 弱者道之用

 

1. Reaction is Tao's action.

2. Weakness is Tao's function.

 

Hence, softness is the function of Tao, that implies Tao's reaction is receptive.

Edited July 29, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

No. No. No! You got that one all wrong. Hehehe.

Receptivity is the weakness of not Virtue ... does that make more sense to you

[ChiDragon]

Receptivity is the weakness of not Virtue ... does that make more sense to you

No no no, it doesn't make any sense but made it worse.

[Marblehead]

Receptivity is the weakness of not Virtue ... does that make more sense to you

 

Hehehe. Good try but you missed it again, I think. 'Not Virtue' is more at taking, not receiving.