The Image of God

[steve]

You seem to be falling into the trap so many spiritual seekers throughout history have fallen into. The inability to reconcile the mind and matter paradox. You are bordering on denying matter, and only accepting "experience" and phenomena of the mental plane.

 

I would say that God is the principle, the original first causeless cause, and the soul back of the Image. Yes, the Image is the Thing. The Universe is the only begotten son, matter is the only begotten son. God is the principle back of the Uinverse. God is the Way.

Empty words, though beautiful.

Scripture is beautiful as allegory, meaningless as fact.

I have no doubt that you will ever run out of words to defend your point of view.

And I have no interest in trying to get you to see mine.

You asked for my perspective and I shared it.

If the image is the thing, I would suggest that you eat the menu, rather than the food.

Drink the letters w a t e r, rather than the liquid.

Pray to your image of God while I live mine in every aware moment.

[Immortal4life]

If the image is the thing, I would suggest that you eat the menu, rather than the food.

Drink the letters w a t e r, rather than the liquid.

 

Talk about empty and irrelevant words....

 

Pray to your image of God while I live mine in every aware moment.

 

Awereness and aware moments are not enough. You are not truly living because you are only accepting the validity of the mind and experiences of the mental plane. Before the Principle of Mind, there has to come first the principle of Life. The true nature of Life has to encompass and develop the material existence, and energy in Life.

 

It is not enough to just experience and be aware. Experiencing Life does not automatically equate to living Life. Life must be true to itself, it must be lived before it can be experienced. Life must first Live. Life must develop, live, and sustain itself in the material world. A complete being must develop itself materially.

 

The mind is the only true illusion. The mind is what has shut itself off from the totality of existence and oneness with all in the Universe.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Immortal4life

[steve]

Talk about empty and irrelevant words....

 

 

 

Awereness and aware moments are not enough. You are not truly living because you are only accepting the validity of the mind and experiences of the mental plane. Before the Principle of Mind, there has to come first the principle of Life. The true nature of Life has to encompass and develop the material existence, and energy in Life.

 

It is not enough to just experience and be aware. Experiencing Life does not automatically equate to living Life. Life must be true to itself, it must be lived before it can be experienced. Life must first Live. Life must develop, live, and sustain itself in the material world. A complete being must develop itself materially.

 

The mind is the only true illusion. The mind is what has shut itself off from the totality of existence and oneness with all in the Universe.

We have nothing more than awareness. Everything else is an image created by thought. Thought is nothing more than memory combined with conditioning and experience. Whatever thought creates is within the realm of the already known. So thought creates an image and any image thought creates must therefore limit the reality it is trying to approximate. What is an image? An image is an idol. You are worshiping an idea, a rational argument, a fervent hope that you can understand and experience the truth, an idol.

 

The greatest Christian theologian, Thomas Aquina, his Summa Theologica I believe, summed up his life's work proving that there is no concept, idea, word, or group of words that could every come close to approximating God. The ecstatics recognized that it was only through opening up to pure awareness and experience of that which is beyond thought that God could be known.

 

Your are telling us that "the mind is the only true illusion" and then your are using words, images, concepts - creations of the mind, to try and explain God. We can see, smell, touch, taste and feel God in every aware moment. Everything else is thought, internal dialogue, our brain's arrogant attempt to classify, categorize, and capture everything in language.

 

What you are doing is making God as an image (ie in the imagination) of Man.

Perhaps the words should be "Man is made AS an image of God" ie "in God's imagination" but even then we are creating an anthropomorphic deity which is simply not the truth, just a feeble attempt of human thought to grasp the ineffable.

You are welcome to think about God - it is a wonderful exercise.

If you can live through awareness, you will become God.

 

Read Anthony Demello - brilliant Jesuit theologian, philosopher, psychologist, and spiritual guide who helped me to see truth in scripture and also helped me to see the limitations in most theological arguments. And many of his arguments are rooted in the work of Jiddu Krishnamurti - a man who brilliantly investigated the nature of thought and the mind and the images it creates. Or not, it is up to each of us to choose what we do and think and believe.

 

Namaste

[gendao]

[Immortal4life]

We have nothing more than awareness. Everything else is an image created by thought. Thought is nothing more than memory combined with conditioning and experience. Whatever thought creates is within the realm of the already known. So thought creates an image and any image thought creates must therefore limit the reality it is trying to approximate. What is an image? An image is an idol. You are worshiping an idea, a rational argument, a fervent hope that you can understand and experience the truth, an idol.

 

We have much more than just awareness. We have Life, Energy, Reason, Discrimination, the ability to refine and improve our abilities, and most important of all, we have the capacity for Love and Compassion.

 

Thought is more than just memory, conditioning, and experience. Thoughts have physical existence, thoughts are vibrations. Your statemements are denying matter. Thought is not confined to the already known. Original thoughts are created all the time. Thoughts can even overcome their own limitations. Thoughts can be derived from not only the mind, but the subconscious, and the higher aspects of one's self.

 

You must create, you must make your thoughts real. In fact, any original creation ever created by man, was first a thought. Matter can thus, validate your thoughts. Through matter you can chisel out a thought, and make it real. Give it life, give it physical existence.

 

An image is no idol. An image is the physical manifestation of the inherent qualities and consciousness of a being. The image is the physical projection of the soul back of the image.

 

 

The greatest Christian theologian, Thomas Aquina, his Summa Theologica I believe, summed up his life's work proving that there is no concept, idea, word, or group of words that could every come close to approximating God. The ecstatics recognized that it was only through opening up to pure awareness and experience of that which is beyond thought that God could be known.

 

Great Theologians may not see the way, but there was one man who did teach the Way. That man became known to us as Jesus.

 

How can a human approximate God? Through Life, Mind, Truth and Love, the Great Law of the universe. What did Jesus have to say about it? He said "to Love thy God, the Great Causeless First Cause, with all thy Heart, all thy Soul, all thy Mind, and all thy Strength." He knew that human beings can devleop spiritually, and can reach God, and this is the way.

 

Is the way through awareness? No. Awareness is necessary, and expanding awareness is the result of spiritual development, but it is not the Way. In order to reach God, you have to give up your human mind. How can we go beyond Mind? Through the Love principle. This is why Jesus added, "and To love thy neighbor as thyself." Other teachers have taught compassion, like compassion for animals, plants, the earth, but jesus knew the fastest way was through love for fellow human beings.

 

Mind must be given up, only through inspiration and love can you climb higher.

 

Your are telling us that "the mind is the only true illusion" and then your are using words, images, concepts - creations of the mind, to try and explain God. We can see, smell, touch, taste and feel God in every aware moment. Everything else is thought, internal dialogue, our brain's arrogant attempt to classify, categorize, and capture everything in language.

 

What you are doing is making God as an image (ie in the imagination) of Man.

Perhaps the words should be "Man is made AS an image of God" ie "in God's imagination" but even then we are creating an anthropomorphic deity which is simply not the truth, just a feeble attempt of human thought to grasp the ineffable.

You are welcome to think about God - it is a wonderful exercise.

If you can live through awareness, you will become God.

 

Read Anthony Demello - brilliant Jesuit theologian, philosopher, psychologist, and spiritual guide who helped me to see truth in scripture and also helped me to see the limitations in most theological arguments. And many of his arguments are rooted in the work of Jiddu Krishnamurti - a man who brilliantly investigated the nature of thought and the mind and the images it creates. Or not, it is up to each of us to choose what we do and think and believe.

 

Namaste

 

God is a principle, it is very difficult for the human mind to grasp such a thing. We can only do it through being a complete being. Life, Mind, Truth, and Love is the Way. Awareness, in the context most will understand, falls under the Mind quadrent.

 

So I say to you, awareness is not the Way. Ultimately only one thing can defeat mind, and that is the Love principle.

 

Beyond that, great wise men in the past have approximated God, in the construct of the Tetragrammaton, the name of God, YHVH. All things in creation and nature can be explained through this construct, in a similar way that the I Ching can explain Nature and Creation.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Immortal4life

[steve]

We have much more than just awareness. We have Life, Energy, Reason, Discrimination, the ability to refine and improve our abilities, and most important of all, we have the capacity for Love and Compassion.

What is Life? What is Energy? Reason and Discrimination are nothing more than rational thought. How can we refine and improve our abilities other than through awareness of our failings and opportunities for progress? What is Love? What is Compassion? Neither exist other than in awareness.

Thought is more than just memory, conditioning, and experience. Thoughts have physical existence, thoughts are vibrations. Your statemements are denying matter. Thought is not confined to the already known. Original thoughts are created all the time. Thoughts can even overcome their own limitations. Thoughts can be derived from not only the mind, but the subconscious, and the higher aspects of one's self.

Thoughts have no physical existence. Thoughts are not vibrations. You are playing with words. If you have a thought, it is known. How can you think something and not know it? Do you really think that there are thoughts that no one has thought before? Perhaps, but what does it matter? It is the mind talking to itself. What is the subconscious if not part of the mind? Define "the higher aspects of one's self" in clear terms. I don't deny matter. Not at all.

You must create, you must make your thoughts real. In fact, any original creation ever created by man, was first a thought. Matter can thus, validate your thoughts. Through matter you can chisel out a thought, and make it real. Give it life, give it physical existence.

I never claimed that thoughts don't exist nor did I claim they are not useful. They are very useful. This is evolution at its finest. Our skill at thought is what has allowed us to become so successful at surviving and exploiting the earth. Thought exists and is responsible for all of our suffering.

An image is no idol. An image is the physical manifestation of the inherent qualities and consciousness of a being. The image is the physical projection of the soul back of the image.

An image is a representation of reality, be it letters, words, sculpture, concept, ideology, thought, whatever, it is not reality itself. Every definition of image in the English language includes words such as representation, imitation, physical representation, and reproduction of the reality of the thing. An image is by definition an idol. An idol is defined as a representation, imitation, or physical representation of something as it relates to worship. An image is a creation of man, it does not contain the inherent qualities or consciousness of a being. It may represent limited qualities. No image contains consciousness. By definition, it is a representation, imitation, or reproduction. Then you define image as "soul back of the image" - that is meaningless, please define. You are using the word in it's own definition and adding a euphemism - soul back of, which needs to be defined.

 

 

 

Great Theologians may not see the way, but there was one man who did teach the Way. That man became known to us as Jesus.

Thomas Aquinus did not see the way of Jesus but you do?

Puulease.

Jesus' scriptures contain truth if you have faith. They are worthless if you are filled with belief.

 

How can a human approximate God? Through Life, Mind, Truth and Love, the Great Law of the universe. What did Jesus have to say about it? He said "to Love thy God, the Great Causeless First Cause, with all thy Heart, all thy Soul, all thy Mind, and all thy Strength." He knew that human beings can devleop spiritually, and can reach God, and this is the way.

Humans do not approximate God. Humans are a physical manifestation of God. Humans have always been and will always be that. They are not always AWARE however. Through awareness you become God - no approximation about it.

Is the way through awareness? No. Awareness is necessary, and expanding awareness is the result of spiritual development, but it is not the Way. In order to reach God, you have to give up your human mind. How can we go beyond Mind? Through the Love principle. This is why Jesus added, "and To love thy neighbor as thyself." Other teachers have taught compassion, like compassion for animals, plants, the earth, but jesus knew the fastest way was through love for fellow human beings.

Mind must be given up, only through inspiration and love can you climb higher.

Finally we agree - "In order to reach God, you have to give up your human mind." No question - this is awareness. That's what I keep asking you to do. Let the mind go, let thought go, let images go, be aware. Open up to life, insight, inspiration. There is absolutely no love without awareness. Awareness is what allows us to know our neighbor as ourself. That is the only way to true love. Please define "the Love principle."

 

God is a principle, it is very difficult for the human mind to grasp such a thing. We can only do it through being a complete being. Life, Mind, Truth, and Love is the Way. Awareness, in the context most will understand, falls under the Mind quadrent.

 

So I say to you, awareness is not the Way. Ultimately only one thing can defeat mind, and that is the Love principle.

 

Beyond that, great wise men in the past have approximated God, in the construct of the Tetragrammaton, the name of God, YHVH. All things in creation and nature can be explained through this construct, in a similar way that the I Ching can explain Nature and Creation.

Bullshit - God is not a principle. The human mind can never grasp God, the mind can only grasp it's image of God. If you are grasping it, it is not God. If you have reduced God to a principle that can be captured by the human mind, you are not worshipping God, you are worshipping the arrogance of the human mind. You can only know God by becoming God - on this perhaps we agree. Awareness is not limited to mind. Awareness is Life, Mind, Truth, and Love. Awareness is the sum total of all ways in which the human can be in touch with life, with spirit, with God. We have nothing else.

Please define "the Love principle."

YHVH are letters, an image, a representation - any other four letters would be equally effective.

The I Ching can never explain Nature and Creation, it's simply a deck of Tarot cards.

A shamanistic tool.

It is an interpretation.

It is another representation that allows man to feel more secure in a world where security does not exist, unless of course we are God, then there is no fear.

 

Enough verbal sparring.

It's a waste of time after a while.

You have your perspective, I have mine.

Words, words, and more words.

Be well, live, and love.

[Immortal4life]

You have your perspective, I have mine.

Words, words, and more words.

Be well, live, and love.

 

Your perspective is that the Way is through Awareness, and that through awareness one can become God.

 

My perspective is that the Way is through the Way, and that Awareness is the result of changing oneself and following that Way.

 

A closely related issue here is the issue of Enlightenment. Many people view it as a transformational magic bullet, something that will change you. The truth is, it is the end result of changing yourself through knowing the Laws of the Universe and being in alignment with them.

 

Spiritual enlightenment a transformational magic bullet, or a natural state?

http://www.atlantis.to/spiritual-enlightenment.htm

Amongst those I deal with at our monasteries in the Far East and Europe, particularly novice monks, there is a near obsession with the concept of spiritual enlightenment. Thats not a problem in and of itself, but the way it is seen and approached, it can be - and often is.

 

Spiritual enlightenment is sometimes thought of more like it is something "magical" that will change you. But more accurately, spiritual enlightenment is the end result of change - changing yourself. It is also commonly thought of as something that just happens to transform you one day. That is somewhat true, but not nearly the "big picture" whole truth.

 

I define spiritual enlightenment as realizing the oneness of all things, your spiritual nature and oneness with the Universe or "God/Universal Spirit" - a transformation that takes place during the death experience of the separate selfish self (like a near death experience in a way).

 

The oneness of the Universe - all things being energy, etc., is also reflected in physics, not just theology. The creation of the separate self is explained in the "Lost Teachings of Atlantis" and of course, the biblical stories of Adam & Eve being exiled from God/the Garden of Eden due to their selfish, separate attitude and resultant actions, and in the story of the once great angel Lucifer separating from and selfishly defying God.

 

Ever heard of Jesus and the new commandment he gave his followers to adhere to? Jesus also taught the above, returning to Oneness with God ("the Father") and gave his life for all. Many have heard He was crucified for our sins, but don't really understand the full meaning of that. He was crucified as an example for us to crucify our selves, to be remembered for all time by all people so His example of Unselfish love and sacrifice for others would be known for all time by all people, and to demonstrate by example the commandment He brought us, in which He proclaims that those who would be known as His followers would love as He loved.

 

IF you really walk the talk rather than just "talking the talk", you can get to what people want to label as enlightenment. But ONLY if you truly exercise the discipline it takes to get there - and what is most important - becoming a compassionate servant of God who cares about that, and subsequently, cares more about others than themselves.

 

We can also look at it in other terms. Other than a handicap preventing it, anyone can be a great musician (we'll use that as a metaphor for "enlightenment". What does that take? Do you just decide to do it one day, find a teacher, and expect to instantly or rapidly be a great musician? Does it not take years of arduous practice and training? Sacrifice? Discipline? If you dont instantly, or even quickly, become a great musician, does that mean your teacher is lousy, or the course of study (the path) is bad? Even if you do everything your teacher and course outlines for you to do, it takes a great deal of time and effort.

 

But if youre not practicing/learning/applying every ounce of yourself, whole heartedly, or if it isnt what you REALLY want most in life, youll never get it. For instance, lets say that you dont do all the practice and work that your teacher assigns for you to do, or you do it half-heartedly. As a result, youre not a very good musician. Would it be correct then to say that the course is no good? Of course not. Who is to blame? And who is going to make the grade and do a recital at Carnegie Hall? Or become the conductor of one of the worlds best orchestras? How many of the millions of music students in the world end up at the pinnacle of their field? Is that something that just magically happens one day, or is it the result of long years of intense dedication, commitment, flawless self-discipline, and gradual accomplishment?

 

Yet, what if you dont achieve the highest recognition or status a musician can receive? Was it all a waste of time? Is it still not good to continually become a better and better musician, regardless of what other people think of you, or your "label"?

 

Guess what? Becoming a true saint is even harder than becoming a great musician. And it isnt a waste of time to keep becoming a better and better person along the way in fact, it is the ONLY way to reach enlightenment. And even though it's hard, you get inner peace, self-esteem and feel good about yourself every step of the way.

 

It never ceases to amaze me, that someone who hasnt even gotten to the point that theyre just basically a truly good and helpful neighbor, has an issue with being "enlightened" or not. How about taking it one step at a time. How about just being a good person, compassionate person, and serving God, whether that means fighting Hitler, or giving someone encouragement or assistance?

 

No one ever said this is an easy path. At least, no one of our path (some paths or religions are quite easy - but that comes with the price of it not really requiring personal change, and wanting the criticism it takes to truly make a big change in your own life, then helping others). Getting back to our natural spiritual state of existence, of oneness with God/the Universal Spirit, means ridding ourselves of the thing we created that keeps us from it this separation bubble we call the separate selfish self. It thus takes sacrificing everything you selfishly want and dealing with everything you fear or dislike and dont want to do. Just truly doing that is a great accomplishment, and incredibly difficult for most people. As if thats not hard enough alone, its also just part of a process to transcend your separate selfish self, and make it your servant, not your master. And what is the separate selfish self? A thing that was created that now believes it's "alive" and YOU. And most people believe it is also. At least that's what they think you are. Yet physics contradict that, based on the fact that everything is all one energy vibrating at different frequencies and taking different forms. And many religions or spiritual paths teach that we are really souls or spirits that go on after our body - and separate selfish selves, cease to exist. And even though we arent talking about actually committing suicide physically to realize this, having a death experience or near death experience, entails virtually the same feelings, and we have the same aversions to it as actual death. Most life-forms want to survive AT ALL COSTS, let alone willingly going to the slaughter - including the "Matrix-like" illusion we live in of being separate from one another, and God. But you created your separate selfish self, and if you want the associated suffering and problems to end, then youll have to make yourself do it. And enlightenment, is not the answer to that, it is the result of that. Just like getting to do a Carnegie Hall recital is the result of being a great musician, or winning Olympic gold is the result of being a great athlete. And attaining those things are easier than attaining enlightenment.

 

Most people, when they say they want to get enlightened, are really hoping to get something that will by-pass all the sacrifice and self-death that needs to occur, and just all of a sudden magically be there an instant saint. Sorry, in my opinion and those of many other spiritual teachers, thats not going to happen. And any person or path that says they can give that to you, or make you change in that way, is a con of the worst kind.

 

Enlightenment is not something that magically happens, nor something any path, or any teacher, can give you. A path or teacher can provide opportunities to change in that direction, but thats it. In most circumstances, anyone can avoid facing that final reaper of the separate selfish self (until the body dies). It takes tremendous discipline and drive to corner that wild and elusive separate selfish self, and ultimately make it surrender" to your spiritual self/God, after its cornered.

 

It is generally a slow process, and a painful one, even though it doesn't have to be.

 

As Ive said before, a teacher is grateful if he has one student in his lifetime, who becomes enlightened. Three would be party time. Even our founder and grandmaster, Jesus, had no enlightened students at the time of his crucifixion. This is a great sadness to a teacher, and it does happen.

 

Once, a person getting a reading from Edgar Cayce asked if he would be enlightened in his lifetime. Cayce snapped at him, and said something to the effect that "You expect to achieve in one lifetime what it took the Master many lifetimes to achieve???" (don't ask for details please, it's a long story, and that's from a Cayce reading, not us - but I thought it was worth mentioning here).

 

This planet has 6 billion people who have mostly all created a separate selfish illusion/existence. To think that you can just begin to realize thats wrong, and instantly change, is another illusion. It can take a very very long time to crawl out of the depths of the separate selfish self world they have created. And most of you are stragglers those who have waited until the last minute of the end times to run towards spiritual growth. Thus the potential for a good crop is even less than in times past. But, spiritual growth is good, in and of itself, and should not be overlooked just because it doesnt mean instant enlightenment, or even ever having the label of "enlightened". So, both teachers and students, must be content, and even happy about any PROGRESS in which someone has made themselves into a better person. That's what really matters ultimately anyway.

 

It is said that the path is lined with roses and thorns, and the way to avoid the entanglements with both, is to walk in the footsteps of the ones who have gone before you. As the line from an oldies song goes:

 

Love is a rose, but you better not pick it, only grows when its on the vine. Hand full of thorns, then you know youve missed it. Lose your love when you say the word, MINE.

 

The ironic thing is, spiritual enlightenment, Christ consciousness, or whatever you choose to call it, is our natural true state. All the separate selfish self stuff, is a grand illusion we have created.

 

The key to enlightenment then, is to peel away all the separate selfish self stuff, and just be who we really are who we already are, underneath/inside. And THAT is what we should be focusing on, rather than the magic bullet.

 

Who would you rather spend time with, someone who only thinks of themselves and always acts in a selfish self serving manner, or someone whose behavior often demonstrates that they think about you, and care about you even if it isnt perfect even if they arent enlightened? Not a difficult question to answer, is it? Well, you cant make someone else be that way, but you can make your self be that way.

 

Start stripping away the things that impede your Inner Voice/Christ consciousness/unselfishly loving nature. One thing at a time. Get rid of each of those selfish impediments. Make yourself a better person. Make yourself into someone who will be missed if they are no longer around. Make yourself into a positive contributor, instead of a selfish detractor. If you keep working on that, keep making the little changes of replacing selfish thoughts and behaviors, with unselfishly loving ones you will eventually reach spiritual enlightenment.

 

I just heard a modern Christian song that said, I want to live a life thats showing that Im undergoing the change

 

So, is all the self-sacrifice that it takes worth it?

 

If you want to live in a better world, yes. It starts with you, and it starts with that.

 

If you want to feel good about yourself, yes.

 

If you eventually want inner peace, yes.

 

I once decided to put an end to the hell of my selfish life. I began. Then I realized, I couldnt do it for selfish reasons (to get my inner peace). Then I went through the hell it took to get free of my separate selfish self. I kept on, out of compassion for others who were needlessly suffering in their self-imposed prisons. Then, hurdle by hurdle, change by change, one step at a time, I eventually became a better person to others, THEN got my inner peace - as a side-effect.

 

All I can say is it was more than worth it to me, and Id never trade it for all the money, power, pleasure, or whatever, in the world.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Jetsun]

There's actually a lot of depth to that issue. Interesting facts like similarities between gods across different ancient cultures, or myths from different cultures around the world of a huge flood or catastrophe. Maybe some of these so called Gods were actual people, or actual beings of some kind.

 

I think the flood symbology is to do with the subconscious flooding the conscious mind, many initiatory rites and esoteric techniques from all sorts of traditions from around the world are designed to do this so it's no surprise it's a common theme; the flood is the beginning for all mystics and the catastrophe is the falling apart of the mental ego structures.

[Immortal4life]

The problem with the theory that all the commonalities thorughout different traditions is a metaphor, is that I find it unlikely that they all are using metaphor to say the same thing. I find that unlikely, and I also find it difficult to prove.

 

The best explanation is that flood stories around the world, are describing actual events. Some may be describing localized floods, however that doesn't explain why so many say the same things and explain similar events. It doesn't explain how they are all connected. The best theory is that Flood Myths around the world, are describing the Great Earth Changes that occurred 12,000 years ago at the end of the last Ice Age.

 

http://www.grahamhancock.com/underworld/underworld1.php

"First of all, there is a common legacy of all these world wide ancient civilizations that they do not even address. This legacy lies not in the 'modern' myth of Atlantis, but in the myths and legends of each of these civilizations which make common reference to cataclysms, especially floods, similar gods or god experiences, and precessional and other astronomically significant numbers, etc, etc. The writing, architecture, and agriculture of these ancients are by products of their development which had its roots in a lost civilization of 12000 years ago. Who today remembers his great grandfather much less thousands of years ago, yet we are subtly influenced by him in ways unknown to us. We have built our lives on the legacy of our ancestors.

 

A survivor of some cataclysm, say a flood, who barely escapes with his life, lands on an island that was a mountain top with little or nothing left of his former life but the knowledge and resourcefulness of how to survive. He may have used a computer or driven a car, but he can't build one nor does he have the materials. He may have organizational skills, however, and be able to bring order to a confused more primitive people who have become cannibalistic as well as chaotic as they crowd together on the top of this mountain. Although he , of course, can read and write, there is nothing to read and no one can read what he writes, so he draws pictures to communicate where language does not work. Others copy his pictures and add their own personality to them until after many millennia a system of picture writing has been established. A system used to record the memory of 'he' who taught them in the beginning.

 

Likewise,the use of certain building techniques spring from those first shelters that 'he' helped them build. Certain architectural styles stem from 'his' own architectural background. These are modified to fit the materials and function of their civilization.

 

Though 'he' probably was not keeping seeds on board 'his' boat at the time of 'his' escape, 'he' knows enough about planting to make use of the indigenous plant life in order to introduce agriculture. Most people today have a basic understanding of growing food which they could use in a time of crisis. Again 'his' agriculture would be in keeping with the resources at hand. As the years went by, everything 'he' taught them would appear as if it were developed by the people themselves.

 

The legacy of the ancients of the lost civilization lies in their knowledge and know-how. They imparted this to those lesser informed, then died. Some of the knowledge was retained and passed on either in myths or in functionality as in the development of structures, agriculture, and picture writing. Around the world this development would be similar, but appropriate to the area that each ancient influenced. And there was a universal symbol left by the ancients, which even school children know, --the serpent, with or without feathers."

 

 

Now, that being said, you are certainly right that some traditions use symbology and metaphor, in explaining the nature of the Mind. In fact, you may not know that the original Meaning of Lucifer, or the LIghtbearer, was the Human Mind. Lucifer is Mind.

 

From the Teachings of the Science of Being, The Dream-

http://www.atlantis.to/dream.htm

Night! The fragrance of a warm summer

night suffuses all Nature. The firmament

studded with stars glowing like diamonds, a

net of glistening loveliness, through which

the dark beauty of night is fading.

Soft, living Light invades the clear atmos-

phere like golden vapor. It increases

steadily, penetrating and covering every-

thing. Bathed in its radiance, there appear

glittering diamond peaks, mountains of topaz

and amethyst, massive rocks of emerald,

gigantic monoliths of sapphire, as steps lead-

ing to higher regions. The Light grows in

strength, investing all things with color and

warmth. These are no rays of a sun rising

from behind the hills, but a glowing radiance

emanating from everywhere, embracing

everything, and increasing like some strain

of music: and indeed, there is music in the

air. Gentle melodies are trembling, soft

harmonies are vibrating, and mysterious

echoes answer them.

Set amidst these precious mountains,

surrounded by a grove of gigantic trees so

lofty that they appear to be talking with the

clouds, stands a Palace, large as a city and of

wondrous beauty. The walls of it are streams

of Light rising from the ground and playing

in all the colors of the rainbow. Its flat

roofs, towers and domes are golden clouds

upon which the glow of the spreading Light

is shedding its morning splendor.

And still the Light grows in strength.

 

Through the golden roof of the Palace rises

an innumerable procession of Beings, each

one seeming more wonderful than the other.

Of almost similar height and size are they,

but how different each one! Some are like

fiery lava streaming from the crater of a

volcano; some are like moonrays made living

beings; some like roaring waterfalls with

rainbows playing about their heads; some

like precious stones become alive. Their won-

derful bodies appear in all their unhidden glo-

ry: no covering conceals their Eternal beauty.

And eyes, such as when the Spirit Itself looks

on the World It has created, full of supreme

majesty and power, full of Infinite Love, are

shining from under their divine brows!

Two of these Beings rise with the rest

from the depths of the Palace, and like twin

stars stand tenderly embraced on the top of

the highest tower. More radiant, more

wonderful than the others are they. Like a

brilliant star is the countenance of one. His

body, taller and stronger than that of his

Mate, is like a phosphorescent opal. Streams

of living Light are flowing through his body

and making it shine in iridescent hues. His

eyes are lightning; a purple cloud his hair;

and when he speaks and when he moves, far

away thunder Is heard.............Golden

and shining is his Companion, his body

woven of sun-rays, his hair a glowing flame,

his eyes reflecting the glory of Heaven itself;

and when he speaks and when he moves, soft

harmonies fill the air.

 

With gestures of adoration they raise their

arms in triumphant song---greeting to the

Spirit, thanks to the Great Giver. Their

brothers follow them in the song; all Nature

joins in this hymn of gratitude. Birds and

animals, trees and flowers, rocks and clouds,

waters and the ground itself, sing the eternal

praise of all beings to The One Supreme

Being, their Divine Father. Stronger and

more wondrous grows the great song, flood-

ing the Universe with praise and love; it rises

to a thunder of triumph, and dies away in

silence.

Silence! A limpid breeze moves the air,

and each one feels within himself the words,

"Live and Love." The Great Spirit, The

Father, is communing with His children.

Infinite bliss fills every being, and pervades

the Universe. The Day of Heaven has

begun.

But the triumphant band passes out of

sight; the roofs are deserted; and the two,

the Heavenly Twins, sink back into the

Palace. And there they stand within the

great tower in the very midst of it. High,

circular walls surround them, but there are

no openings in those walls. Deep and mys-

terious is the material out of which they are

built; precious also is it, for its name is

Silence. And upon those mighty walls of

Silence, towering high up into the free air,

are set lofty pillars. Precious also is the ma-

terial from which they are made, shining in

all the colors of the rainbow; their name is

 

Hope. And through these pillars of Hope

stretching their slender shafts into the high-

est air, are sailing golden clouds. Silent they

move through the tower of Silence; but the

birds with the rustling of their wings, do not

dare to fly through because of the sacred

Silence.

A Upon these pillars of Hope rests a glorious

dome, effulgent as a sun, and Joy is the

material out of which the dome is made. And

the floor upon which they stand is a trans-

parent crystal, a gigantic lens, and through

that lens the whole Universe appears stretched

out at their feet. Worlds without number,

all stars, sun-systems, chains of planets, all

beings, every thing, the greatest and the

smallest, can be seen through that crystal.

Understanding is the material out of which

that floor is made. With their feet firmly

established on Understanding, with Silence

surrounding them, with Hope towering over

them and with Joy crowning them, stand the

two, keeping watch over the World.

And the one whose voice is like thunder

speaks to his Mate.

Oh! Thou loved One! Thou, radiant Joy

of the World! Once more we stand ready to

fulfil our charge, to carry out our duties in

the eternal scheme-Thou the Love of the

World, I the Mind of it. All knowledge, all

power are ours. Why then must we every

morning adore, greet as our Master, One

Whom none has ever seen? Thou art from

Eternity, and I am from Eternity, and so are

 

all our brothers. Yet who has ever seen the

One Who claims to be our Father and Who is

called God? True it is that every morning a

Voice speaks within us-but there is none can

tell whether it comes not from our very

selves. Why should we adore any longer

One Who remains a mystery to us? Enough

that we should be slaves to an unknown

master. Let us free ourselves from the bonds

by which we are now bound. All powers, all

forces are ours; therefore let us rule the

World-we two, the greatest powers of this

World."

The answer came soft-winged, tender as

Love itself.

"Ah! Brother, Why these words of

pride, of revolt? Thou knowest-for thy

heart tells thee in spite of all-that there is a

God, that we have an invisible Father,

Who is also our loving Mother, and Who

enfolds us, His children, in His Divine

embrace. He thinks continually of us.

He plans ceaselessly for our joy. For us He

pours out into manifestation the endless

beauties, the transplendent wonders, from

the unmanifest regions of His Heart. And

He asks nothing from us but our love. Is it

so difficult to love Him Who so loves us?

Dismiss these thoughts of rebellion, forget

these proud words. Sorrow alone can come

from them, my Brother."

Like sudden thunder, like the bursting

of crashing floods, came the roaring, shatter-

ing outcry.

 

"What is this Hidden Power that can

compel Mind? Mind, the glittering lumin-

ary of all the Worlds, is regent in the

Universe. No servant's place shall I be satis-

fied to take. But if thou, oh my gentle Brother!

wilt not rule with me, and share my power,

then alone shall I command the World."

And with these words, swift as a streak

of lightning, he rises from the ground of

Understanding, through Silence, through

Hope, through radiant Joy, into the open.

Higher and still more high, past the precious

mountains, he climbs the lambent air, leav-

ing behind a blazing train of phosphorus,

until his feet touch the summit of the most

aspiring peak, the pinnacle of glittering

diamond. Poised on the shining spire, his

cry goes out to all the World.

"Spirits of Light! Sons of Eternity! The

day of freedom, of liberation, has come

to us! Free are ye born, free shall ye live!

No more adoration, no more praying to a

Master, to a God Whom none has ever seen.

From now, ye shall be your own masters.

Come all, come all to me, and ye shall be

free!"

And from the hidden parts of all the

World, myriads of Spirits, Sons of Light, are

gathering together. They surround the

diamond peak where stands the one whose

eyes are lightning, whose countenance is

like a blazing star. With words of adoration

they shout:

"Hail to thee, Lucifer! Son of the Morn-

 

ing! Hail to thee, Liberator! Our Leader,

our Master, our God!"

And he who is proclaimed the master of

the how, called the ruler of the World,

looks down upon those prostrate at his feet.

"I am your master, I am your god!

Follow me, for I alone can give you freedom;

new beauties shall ye discover through me,

new powers and forces shall ye wield. Ye

shall become more piercingly brilliant than

ever ye have been, like flaming diamonds,

more scintillating than the blazing suns.

But in the sacred grove, hidden amid the

giant trees, with sad eyes and a heavy heart,

stands one whose name is Love, words of

prayer falling from his lips.

"Father, Beloved One! Beating Heart

of all the Universe! Forgive them, for they

know not what they do. Him they call

God, Lucifer they acknowledge as supreme.

Yet he is nothing but Thy child, and all his

powers and beauties he has from Thee.

True it is he appears supreme, for his feet

touch the ground, his head reaches Heaven,

and his glory seems to fill all Space, yet they

are as deceived as he is himself. It is Thy

glory which is still shining through him, and

Thy power is taken for his own. Father,

forgive them, for they know not what they

do. Forgive my Brother, Lucifer, for he is

still the dearest to my heart: he also knows

not what he does!"

From his piercing height, Lucifer heard

the faithful, praying voice-and smiled on

 

him in contempt. But suddenly another

Voice, heavy with destiny, gathering in its

might the Unmeasured Energy of all the

Worlds:

"Lucifer! In Heaven all desires are

achievement. Thou wouldst be free-thou

shalt be free. Go thou, and all those who

worship thee, to that further plane to which

ye all belong. These Regions of Eternal

Light can bear thee no longer. Your bodies

cast shadows in the pure skies. Prom the

Spheres of Light to the outer, utmost void-

go!'

Thus the Voice from the Vaulted Silence:

and on the moment, a sudden burden as of

great heaviness falls on Lucifer and his

followers. They are no longer able to offer

resistance against its weight, and with a

blast of thunder and terror, they fall from

the Realms of Light into the somber void.

As they fall darkness grows denser about

them, until no spark of Light, no hope is

left to them. Par in the utter gloom, still

falling, they perceive a fiery region which

draws them swiftly to it with irresistible

force. And they are cast into an ocean of

fire, of smoke, of molten metal, of boiling

stone.

He who was the first to fall, is also the

first to rise again. And he sees his brothers,

his followers, once Spirits of Light, darkened,

disgraced, extinguished, thrown into that

abode of fire and suffering. And he calls to

them:

 

"Rise, my brothers! Rise, ye who are

still the Sons of Light! True it is that from

the highest Spheres of Bliss, we have been

cast into this desolation. Yet all knowledge

is still mine, and thus all power, and I shall

make for you from this hell a new Heaven,

and this new Heaven shall be called Earth."

As he speaks the ages pass, the flaming

fields contract, the incandescence blazes

with a fainter heat, the fumes and vapors

gradually disperse, and a lustrous, glowing

planet, cradled in fire and beauty, is born.

The lovely Earth appears---green hills and

gentle slopes and flowery meadows, singing

brooks, clear rivers and the blue sea,

mountains and chasms and waterfalls.

And through enchanted forests birds of a

hundred colors are flying, and in the fields

animals are roaming. And Lucifer is pleased

with his creation and says:

"And now, my Brothers! Ye shall be the

inhabitants of this new Heaven and ye shall

be called human beings."

And wonderful beings, lofty of stature,

strong and comely, appear on the Earth:

they propagate and multiply, and rule the

Earth. And Lucifer is their king, their

god.

So fair a world seemed a true semblance

of Heaven. But the canker of revolt which

had cast them from Heaven, still lived with

them. And the spirit of jealousy, hatred,

and pride begins to manifest itself, and

grows, and spreads, until the splendid

 

Earth becomes again a hell. But now they

are unable to bear any longer the suffering

which infests the Earth, and they .find no

help or relief from Lucifer. In their deep

despair, they remember their Father, and

turn to Him and pray again to God. And

God, their Father, hears the cry of His

children, and from His Heart sends down to

them His Own Love. And Love comes down

from Heaven to Earth, and Love becomes

a human being; and Love lives with human

beings and teaches human beings how to

love.

But Lucifer, incarnate also as a human.

being, sees the menace to his power, and in

a passion of hate and jealousy rises against

his Brother and slays his Brother. And

God's Love shakes off the burden of the

Earth, and Earth is without Love again.

So sorrow and terror once more prevail, and

the suffering becomes intolerable. Again

human beings cry out to God for help.

And God, the Father, the loving Mother,

hears the cry of His children, and from His

Heart sends down to them His Own Love.

And Love comes down from Heaven to Earth

again and Love becomes a human being;

and Love lives with human beings, and

teaches them the Law of Love.

But Lucifer, the World's Mind, again

incarnate as a human being, rises against

his Mate, his Eternal Twin, and causes Him

to die, for he sees in Him the great menace

to his power. And once again, God's Love

 

returns to the Father, and again the earth is

void of Love.

So through the ages, whenever misery

and suffering increase upon the Earth so as

to make life intolerable, the children of the

Earth call out for a Deliverer. And always

Love, gentle and tender-hearted; comes to

their call and tries to save His brothers.

But Lucifer ever rises against Him, kills His

body, and destroys His work, for Love is the

continual menace to his power.

And when for the last time, God's Love

came down, to Earth, and lived the humble

life of a simple mortal, giving to Humanity

the greatest lesson that Love ever gave,

Lucifer, incarnate as a human being, rose

once more against his Brother, betrayed Him

and brought Him to His death upon the

cross. But He, of Whom the World was not

worthy, breathing His last breath, dying as

a felon upon the accursed tree, prayed for

those who had crucified Him:

"Father, forgive them, for they know not

what they do. Father, forgive my brother

Lucifer, for he knows not what he does."

These burning words of love struck

Lucifer like lightning in his heart, and he

went out and made an end to his human self.

And rising as a spirit, he beheld the great-

ness of his brother's Love, and the endless

evil of his own age-old sin. He saw the

sorrow and the suffering which came through

him to all beings; and he felt that cold and

stony heart of his melt and soften, and he

 

wept tears of blood, tears of fire. And those

tears fell on the Earth and the Earth trem-

bled to its very foundation.

Thus for the first time, after countless

ages of revolt, did Lucifer lift up his eyes to

God, and words of prayer fell from his lips:

"Father! I know the immensity of my

sin, and do not beg for forgiveness for

myself. For crimes like mine cannot be

atoned. But oh! my Father, forgive them,

those who followed me in my fall. Forgive

them, for they knew not what they did.

No fault was theirs but that they loved me

more than Thee, and listened to the magic of

my words, the glitter of my Mind, so that

Thy Laws were all forgotten. Therefore, I

pray Thee, forgive them and take them back

to Thee: let them return to those pure

Spheres of Light, where Bliss and Harmony

and Serenity are. But for myself, if by my

eternal damnation I can win their eternal

salvation, I am ready to be damned for

Eternity."

'Then from the Vaulted Silence, a Voice,

gathering in its might the Unmeasured

Energy of all the Worlds:

"Lucifer, thy sacrifice is accepted-and

through thy sacrifice shall the World be

saved."

And he, the proud one who had thought

himself a god, bent his knees, and with his

head touched the dust of the ground.

Like far-off thunder sounded his words:

"Father, I thank Thee!"

 

And once again the Voice:

"Lucifer, thou hast sinned much, but

thou hast also loved much. Infinite is thy

sin, but infinite also is thy sacrifice; there-

fore, art thou forgiven. Go into the World,

live among the children of the World, and

carry to them the Light of Knowledge puri-

fied by Love. Thus the veils of self-delusion

will be withdrawn one by one, limitations

will be removed, suffering conquered, sorrow

transmuted into Joy. And when the last

human fault shall have been destroyed,

when all thy brothers will have come hack to

Me, then only will come thy day of libera-

tion. Thy pinions of inspiration, singed by

the fires of hell, will have grown again

strong enough to lift thee from this Earth and

to bear thee back to Heaven. And there, at

the burnished Gates of Heaven, the Portals

of Eternal Harmony, shall Love, thy

Brother, thine Eternal Mate, be waiting for

thee, to lead thee back to Me!"

And Lucifer went into the World. And

Lucifer taught the World. And to the World

Lucifer carried the Light of Pure Knowledge,

glowing with the flame of Love.

 

Night! The fragrance of a warm summer

night pervades all things. The firmament

blazing with stars, and beyond the stars

darkness softly fading away. The radiant

Palace, the sacred grove, and above them,

the mountains of precious stones. And in

the sacred grove whose trees are talking with

 

the clouds, rest in sleep myriads of Beings of

Eternal Light. Beneath the loftiest tree,

the loftiest king of all the woods, lies one

whose countenance is as a God's. He lies

in deep slumber; and bending over him,

calling him softly with words of Love,

stands his Mate, his Twin.

"Brother! Loved one, awake! Arise, my

Lucifer! The night is fading fast, and

soon the Day of Heaven will begin. Now

must we sing again the praises to our

Father, and lift our voices in adoration and

gratitude to God."

Like far-off thunder came the questioning

words from trembling lips, and out of

sorrowful eyes a flash of lightning: "Oh!

Where am I?"

And the answer: "Thou art in Heaven,

Lucifer."

But again the question: "Where have I

been these ages? This fall, this suffering

through countless years; and always fighting

thee, my loved one, destroying thy work and

killing thee. Where have I been?"

"Not for a single moment of time hast

thou left Heaven, Lucifer. But with thy

brothers in the sacred grove, beneath the

great trees, hast thou slept the night,

instead of with me in the Palace. Lonely

was I, my Brother, for I missed thy pres-

ence.

"But these sorrows, these nights of dark-

ness that I saw and lived? This suffering,

these crimes, this agony? What were they

 

all-whence came they and where have they

gone?"

And the answer-burning words of Love

"Beloved! It was nothing but a Dream."

Edited May 17, 2011 by Immortal4life

[steve]

Your perspective is that the Way is through Awareness, and that through awareness one can become God.

 

My perspective is the the Way is through the Way, and that Awareness is the result of changing oneself and following that Way.

 

Not quite but close - we are already God. We do not become God through awareness.

We just wake up and recognize the truth. There is no "Way" to God because we are all, always, already there.

We just need to wake up.

How could it possibly be otherwise?

 

You use too many words as their own definition.

"The Way" is a very ambiguous statement.

Every method can be considered "the Way" from the perspective of the person adhering to it.

We could have a more satisfying debate if you would define your terms.

[Immortal4life]

Not quite but close - we are already God. We do not become God through awareness.

We just wake up and recognize the truth. There is no "Way" to God because we are all, always, already there.

We just need to wake up.

How could it possibly be otherwise?

 

The problem I see here is that if you are seperated from God, and are "unaware" of your connection to God as part of God, then you absolutely need a "Way" to regain that awareness, you need a path back to God.

 

The statement that "We just need to wake up" sounds good and seems spiritual at first, but it is ultimately inadequate.

 

You use too many words as their own definition.

"The Way" is a very ambiguous statement.

Every method can be considered "the Way" from the perspective of the person adhering to it.

We could have a more satisfying debate if you would define your terms.

 

I have defined the Way, it is conforming to the nature of God, and the nature of the Universe. Whatever path that one follows, and whatever specific methods one uses, the underlying requirement is that the way follows the Nature of the Universe.

 

The best statement I have ever read about The Way, is by Jesus, To Love thy God with all thy Heart, all thy Soul, all thy Mind, and all thy Strength, and to love thy neighbor as thyself.

 

That is the Way back to God, the Way is Love. Awareness is not the Way, it is the end result.

 

So the problem with your understanding is that it doesn't give anyone a way to awareness. It's circular logic. It's saying "The path to Awareness is through becoming more Aware". It offers no practical method or principle to actually achieve awareness.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Jetsun]

Perhaps awareness leads to love. When you bring awareness to your patterns, to your contractions and your restrictions you can let go of them and then your heart shines through naturally in an uncontrived way.

[Immortal4life]

Here is the most comprehensive description I know of, of the Nature of the Universe and God, and the relationship between the Mind and Heart-

http://www.mysteriesofthemind.com/ScienceOfBeing.htm

Everything down to the smallest electron is governed by Its Laws - Laws as precise, as invariable, as mathematical as the laws of mathematics itself, for mathematics is part of Its Creation and is therefore subject to Its Laws. Nothing can be above or beyond these Laws, for they are a manifestation of the Eternal Activity of the Great Principle Itself. The fourth activity of The Great Principle is its Power to Sustain. It pours out all Life and Energy from Itself, and sanctions and supports its own Life, Intelligence, Laws and Love so that they will exist with it eternally. From it proceeds all. And lastly, as the mother-bird covers her fledglings with her wings, so the Great Principle enfolds all Creation within Its boundless protection and Love. It contains the whole Universe and therefore may be said to be in a way greater than Its own Creation. Yet It is identical with Creation, for Creation is the exact counterpart of the Great Principle, the Eternal Unmanifest, of which we perceive but the Manifestation. No one has seen the Great Principle, the Unmanifest, at any time. We perceive and appreciate It only through Its manifest Laws. The Universe is the manifestation and the scientific actual proof of the existence of the Great Principle. TO THIS PRESENT STATE OF HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS, THE GREAT PRINCIPLE APPEARS IN FOUR DISTINCT ASPECTS - LIFE MIND TRUTH LOVE They are in a certain scientific order; they have been so eternally and cannot be changed. It has been said, "God is first Love". But one cannot love if one does not already live, and even Divinity Itself cannot reverse such a sequence. The Great Principle is First Life. It must first live and then It can think. It must first live and then It express Truth, Law. It must first live and then It can love. THE FIRST ASPECT OF THE GREAT PRINCIPLE, THEREFORE, IS LIFE. What comes next? MIND. For Life must become conscious of itself, conscious of its own existence. If it were not conscious of itself, Life might be said not to exist completely; but it is able to say, "I think, therefore I am." Next must come TRUTH, LAW. The Self Conscious Life must be true to itself eternally, law-emitting, law-abiding, since it can only work harmoniously when it is true to itself. And finally, what must be last? It must be LOVE - HARMONY. For if Life were not capable of Love, of Harmony, it would be set against itself, repelling instead of attracting, self-hating and therefore self-destructive. Love and Harmony are synonymous terms. LOVE IS THE LAW AND ALSO THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW; it is Love alone that sets the seal of Eternity on all; it is Love alone that justifies Eternity and makes it what it should be, a blessing. Without Love, Eternity would be the most terrible hell imaginable, for it is only when we know that there will be Everlasting Harmony that we can face Eternity. And the only guarantee of Eternal Harmony lies in the fact that The Great Principle Itself must love eternally, in order to maintain throughout Eternity Its Own Existence. That is why we cling to Love to the very last, when all else, Life and Mind and even Truth, have apparently failed us. LOVE IS NOT FIRST IN ORDER BUT IN IMPORTANCE. Whatever else may be achieved will be of no use without Love, for it is the beauty and radiance and joy of the Universe. These are the Four Aspects of the Great Principle. They are instantaneous and simultaneous, yet expressed in their logical order. This order cannot be changed; it is fundamental and scientific. Those Four Aspects of the Great Principle, as manifested in our lives, may be regarded as the four corners of a perfect square, and their mutual relations analyzed from a scientific point of view. Let us take the upper left corner, Life. What does Life face, if we pass a line across the square diagonally? We find Life facing Truth. What does this mean? It means that THE FIRST ETERNAL DUTY OF LIFE IS TO BE LIVED, that it must be true to itself.

 

For if Life is not expressed through activity there is no hope possible for it. In order that there should be continued activity, energy manifested (thus making all else possible) Life must be true to its own mission, TO LIVE; for this reason it faces Truth. What has Life on its right side? It has Mind. The right side is always considered the dominant side, because it stands for the right. Therefore Life has Mind on its right side. This implies that LIFE MUST BE CONSCIOUS OF ITS OWN EXISTENCE, of its own operations, of its own duties, for if it were not self-conscious, it could not achieve all that it should achieve. Upon the left side, Life has Love. This means that Life must not only be constantly active, conscious of itself and its activities, but that in order to be eternal, IT MUST ALSO BE A LOVING AND HARMONIOUS LIFE. It is the left side which is the side of the heart, the organ, the symbol of Love. We come now to the lower left corner of the square, Mind, and draw a line across the square diagonally. What does Mind face. It faces Love. This means that the Mind's eternal duty is to be expressed first in Love; it must interpret Harmony, for without this nothing would be good in its work. Therefore, Mind must always face Love. THIS IS THE GREAT LESSON THAT MIND HAS TO LEARN THE LESSON OF LOVE. What has Mind on its right side? It has Truth. This means that it must demonstrate Truth, because Mind had once perverted Truth in his own nature. It is said of Satan that he was a liar from the beginning; and yet Satan is Lucifer, is Mind. Therefore, THE NEXT LESSON THAT MIND MUST LEARN IS TO BE TRUE. Truth implies Law - a constant reminder to Mind to be Law abiding, for it was Mind also that first violated the Law. And upon the left side, Mind has Life. It must express activity - MIND MUST BE OPERATING, THINKING. As that is a natural function for Mind, it becomes a secondary duty; hence Mind has Life on its left side. At the third corner of the square stands Truth. What does Truth face? It faces Life, for TRUTH MUST FIRST BE LIVED. Truth which is not lived is not Truth. For that reason, the first thing that Truth has always to face is its own expression, its manifestation. Law, the corollary of Trugh, must be demonstrated, put into operation. The Laws of the Universe must be eternal and voicing themselves eternally, or the Universe would sink into chaos. And what stands upon the right side of Truth as its dominant power? Love. FOR TRUTH, LAW, MUST PROVE ITSELF TO BE ARDENT, COMPASSIONATE, TENDER, a Law of Harmony and beauty. It must be radiant and great-hearted, not the cold, dry truth of the intellect. It is the burning Truth of Love. On the left side of Truth stands Mind. It signifies that Truth must be expressed consciously; the Law must be intelligently formulated; but those functions being natural to Truth, Mind is placed on the left side of it. And finally to the fourth activity of The Great Principle. What does Love face? Love faces Mind. Love manifests itself last, but is the most sublime of the Four Aspects. IT IS A POWER SO GREAT, A GIFT SO PRECIOUS, THAT IT MUST NEVER BE WASTED OR MISUSED, IT MUST BE USED INTELLIGENTLY, FOR THAT REASON IT FACES MIND OR THE CAPACITY OF DISCRIMINATION. Jesus said: "Cast not your pearls before swine." Do not squander Love, the precious gift, on those who do not understand it. Jesus knew these Laws, and the relation of these Aspects of the Great Principle to each other; therefore he warns us to be careful not to throw away this most wonderful treasure. SO LOVE MUST FIRST FACE MIND. What has Love upon its right side? It has Life. This means that Love must be continually expressed in activity. IF WE DO NOT LIVE LOVE, THEN WE DO NOT LOVE. At its left side is Truth. Love must always be true to itself. But Love IS always true to itself. Truth, Law, is a very secondary power for Love, because by its own harmonious nature it is always law-abiding, always true to itself. The Two greatest powers in the World, Love and Mind, are facing each other in the Square. They are the two manifestations, the first dual emanations of the Great Principle, of Divinity, - Christ and Lucifer. Love expresses Christ; Mind expresses Lucifer. Satan was once called Lucifer, The Carrier of Eternal Light; his Eternal Mate was Christ, the Anointed One. but Mind in his pride had fallen, AND CHRIST, LOVE, TO SAVE THE WORLD, ASSUMED THE ACTIVITIES WHICH HAD BELONGED TO LUCIFER AND BECAME BOTH IDEAL LOVE AND PERFECT MIND. Originally it was not so, and finally it will also not be so. There will come an adjustment, and the two counterparts will be re-united and become equal again. Mind comes to us and leads us to Perfection, yet it cannot enter with us through the door of Perfection, of Heaven, for it is an exile from Heaven. For the time being it is shut out; and because it is seemingly separated from the Infinite Principle, it cannot grasp Infinity. It is only through Intuition and through emotion, especially of the higher self, that we can become One with the Great Principle, and rise into the highest vibrations, into the Infinite All. Mind cannot bring us there. It is Love, the Christ in our nature, that part of us which has never fallen and which has remained perfect eternally, which ALONE CAN LEAD US BACK TO INFINITY. It is therefore our duty to work out of the limitations imposed upon us by Mind, the Lucifer principle in us, and to ATTUNE MIND TO THE CHRIST PRINCIPLE IN US, this redemption will unite again these two apparently diverse principles in Eternal Harmony. Now if equal lines are drawn from the four corners of the square upwards to a common point, the figure produced will be a pyramid. And if we work harmoniously and simultaneously from the four corners, Life, Mind, Truth, and Love, and extend these to one point, that point will symbolize SPIRIT, the Absolute, the All-inclusive Principle from which everything proceeds and to which it finally returns. The ancient Pyramid of the Egyptians, built so many centuries ago, meant this very thing. It meant Divinity working from the four-square of Humanity, through Life, Mind, Truth and Love to Its own apex, Spirit. Geometrically it would be impossible to construct a perfect pyramid unless each side were equal to the others; the apex would never be reached if even one side failed it its proportions. So it is just as impossible from the point of view of the Absolute Law to reach Spirit, if any one of the Aspects of the Great Principle in us is at fault, THE FOUR SIDES MUST BE HARMONIOUSLY EQUAL, none must fail or dominate the others. We should not concern ourselves too much about reaching the apex, Spirit, if only we work conscientiously at harmonizing the four sides, for the Law itself will look after the results of our work. We are building up the ground under ourselves in working out these four Aspects of the Great Principle, for EVERY TIME THAT WE PERFORM AN ACTION ENERGETICALLY, INTELLIGENTLY, ACCURATELY, AND LOVINGLY , WE HAVE PLACED BENEATH OUR FEET A STRATUM THAT EXTENDS TO THE FOUR ANGLES OF OUR SQUARE. Thus we have risen by this much, and gradually, using every activity performed with energy, intelligence, accuracy and love, as a step upwards, we shall rise nearer and nearer to that point which is Spirit, and which is the final goal of all human endeavor. When we reach Spirit we do not ourselves know how we reached It. Nor do we need to know, for it works according to Law, and all we must do is to LET THE LAW WORK FOR US AND NOT CONCERN OURSELVES WITH THE FRUITS OF OUR ACTIONS. If the work is good, the result will be good, according to the Law of Cause and Effect. It is all so simple, and yet human beings so little understand it and wonder why their progress is stopped. Some one says, "I am so loving, so generous, I am willing to give everything. Why can I not rise?" Perhaps one of his qualities is not developed, one of the corners of his pyramid not properly built. The problem is to find out which one of the corners is underdeveloped. Let us take, for instance, any one of the little daily actions in our lives - not something which we especially like to do, but just an ordinary action which has more the character of a duty than a pleasure - and let us analyze how we perform that action. If we do it energetically, the Life corner is strongly built. If we do it intelligently, the Mind corner is properly represented. If we do it accurately, the corner of Truth (Law) is also well balanced. And if we do it lovingly, the Love corner is then in harmony with the other three corners. But if we discover in the actions we analyze that some of those four qualities are too weak in comparison with the strong, all we have to do is to reinforce the weak characteristics in order that they should strike a proper balance with the strong. NOW BY ONE OF THESE ORDINARY ACTIONS OF OURS WE CAN FIND OUT THE WHOLE OF OUR CHARACTER, just as by analyzing a drop of water taken from a pool we are able to discover all the qualities of the water of the whole pool. In correcting the weak sides in those little daily actions of ours, we will by and by improve our whole character and make it harmonious, thus properly building up our Live Pyramid. This will secure us a speedy progress in our individual evolution. THE POINT IS THE CONSUMMATION OF PERFECT HARMONY FROM ALL SIDES. From these four basic corners, from the so-called human square, we rise to the Divine Point. If we look down from above, we find the Four Aspects, the Manifestation below; and if we look up from the Four we behold the one Point, Unity, the Great Principle, the Unmanifest, Spirit. And thus we have also the correlation of numbers; we have the number four of our human square and the number three of the Divine triangle represented in the side of the pyramid, four added to three making seven, a number of completeness. Besides that, by multiplying four and three, we have twelve, again a number of completeness, but manifesting it under a different aspect. Seven and twelve play a very important role in our present stage of Evolution.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Aaron]

Not quite but close - we are already God. We do not become God through awareness.

We just wake up and recognize the truth. There is no "Way" to God because we are all, always, already there.

We just need to wake up.

How could it possibly be otherwise?

 

You use too many words as their own definition.

"The Way" is a very ambiguous statement.

Every method can be considered "the Way" from the perspective of the person adhering to it.

We could have a more satisfying debate if you would define your terms.

 

Very good explanation. I remember being told that we are God and this is God's dream. Once we wake up then will recognize it for what it is, our fanciful imagination, and return to being God.

 

Aaron

Edited May 18, 2011 by Twinner

[Immortal4life]

Concepts like that can serve as a spiritual metaphor and help'our intuitive understanding of spiritual concepts. Certainly they can be considered true at a certain level.

 

However, the problem with this concept is that Life is not a dream, Matter and the physical plane is not exactly a dream. It is real.

 

So many spiritual seekers and people who study religion can not resolve the seeming seperation between matter and mind. So they go to extremes, they deny reality, they deny matter, they give up everything, no desires, no thoughts, no mind even! Some give up their very Life. They think this will bring them awarenes, however in their search for enlightenemnt, it may end up actually numbing the mind.

[ShaktiMama]

Textbooks and schools have as much potential to limit one's thinking and send someone off course, as they do to expand one's thinking.

 

An example is Anthropology. Anthropologists are trained to automatically assign a ritualistic meaning to any ancient artifact they find. They are taught to assume all ancient people were primitive and superstitous simpletons, who understood nothing but primitive rituals.

 

 

Having a minor in anthropology from the University of Miami I would have to say, you just made that up or you get your information from watching movies.

[Immortal4life]

Any ancient find by any archaeologist or anthropologist that I have ever read about, heard about, or seen on tv, was given a superstitous purposes and meaning by anthropologists.

 

There is no Anthropologist in the world who would ever consider that say, the practices of a Buddhist Monk, could grant them any real abilities. According to Anthropology it is just human supertition. No Anthropologist would ever say that a Native American Rain Dance could ever actually bring Rain. Again, human supersittion for certain. A Qigong master attemting to heal a patient? Superstitous ritual according to Anthropology. No Anthropologist today would ever accept that "Magic" of ancient cultures could be Scientific or work.

 

The Anthropological perspective-

Anthropological Perspective

 

The anthropological perspective includes certain presumptions about humans. There are many ways to view this universe and all of us use a combination of several approaches in our daily lives. For example, if one follows a recipe without understanding causal relationships between processes, one is practicing magic (in the anthropological meaning of the word) to produce some future event. If the attempt fails, it is because one either deviated from the procedure, used defective ingredients, or was overpowered by the actions of another magician who followed a stronger recipe. All of us do things every day that fall into the category of magic. Further, one could choose to manipulate a future event by an appeal to a deity or to a force (religion). Superstition is a belief in a correlation that is spurious or demonstrably false. On a cold morning, even scientifically minded persons may invoke magic, religion, and superstition as they attempt to start their cars.

 

Although generalizations may rise and be dismissed in light of subsequent information, perspective of diverse disciplines is different. Perspective affects the goals, methods, and value systems of the participating scientist. Right or wrong, it exerts great influence. The presumptions of holism, biological continuity, and cultural relativity (there is no culture-free standard of judgment...) are some of the features of an anthropological perspective that distinguish it from other sciences.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Immortal4life

[ShaktiMama]

Any ancient find by any archaeologist or anthropologist that I have ever read about, heard about, or seen on tv, was given a superstitous purposes and meaning by anthropologists.

 

There is no Anthropologist in the world who would ever consider that say, the practices of a Buddhist Monk, could grant them any real abilities. According to Anthropology it is just human supertition. No Anthropologist would ever say that a Native American Rain Dance could ever actually bring Rain. Again, human supersittion for certain. No Anthropologist today would ever accept that "Magic" could be Scientific or work.

 

The Anthropological perspective-

 

You didn't cite where you cut and pasted from.

 

There are many types of anthropology, from cultural anthro to religious anthro, to linguistic, to law, to media anthro, to scientific anthro...etc. etc. etc. Anthropology is the study of humanity and it's origins. It is the study of what makes us human...whether its our culture, our science, our beliefs...

 

You are just one young, inexperienced and uneducated person. That does not give you the authority to make the pronouncement that the professional fields of anthropology and archeology are only concerned with ascribing superstition to artifacts. I suggest you read about someone like Margaret Mead to understand about anthropology. To make these claims as you do about scientific study damages your credibility beyond belief.

 

I challenge you to open your mind up to more than just what your brain can see or conceive. There is more in this universe that is unknown than known. There is even more that we don't know that we don't know.

 

Don't paint yourself into an intellectual corner with absolutest statements about something that shaped your intellect because you saw it on TV. It is embarrassing. I am trying to say this in the kindest way but it is very difficult to sugar coat this.

[Immortal4life]

We will see. I think we can discuss specific archaeological artifacts at a later date.

 

But what all forms of science ultimately become, are branches of a specific ideology. The Church of Progress ideology. The credo of the Church of Progress goes... the People of today are the most advanced and intelligent in history, Human progress is linear starting at stupid old caveman cullminating with smart us with science. Consciousness is a spin off of matter. There is no meaning to existence.

 

Here John Anthony West explains-

[ShaktiMama]

We will see. I think we can discuss specific archaeological artifacts at a later date.

 

But what all forms of science ultimately become, are branches of a specific ideology. The Church of Progress ideology. The credo of the Church of Progress goes... the People of today are the most advanced and intelligent in history, Human progress is linear starting at stupid old caveman cullminating with smart us with science. Consciousness is a spin off of matter. There is no meaning to existence.

 

 

so what does this have to do with your statement that :Any ancient find by any archaeologist or anthropologist that I have ever read about, heard about, or seen on tv, was given a superstitous purposes and meaning by anthropologists.

 

I think you contradict yourself and are not really looking at or examining what you are professing and quoting.

 

Consciousness is a spinoff of matter? you lift your works unattributed to an author http://www.jawest.com/sekhmet2.htm

 

The dogma may be unofficial and unwritten, but it is demonstrably Church of Progress dogma nonetheless. The church Credo goes something like this: the universe is an accident; matter precedes mind; consciousness is a kind of spin-off of matter; human life, indeed, all life, serves no higher purpose. Spiritual and sacred are no more than euphemisms for superstition. There is no consciousness higher than our own (at least not on this planet) and no possible transformation of the material into the spiritual. There is only Progress, hope defrayed into the future. Jacob's ladder no longer bridges the gulf between heaven and earth. It has been laid flat along the ground. Given enough time, science and technology will establish their version of heaven right here on earth.

 

Sounds like who you quote unattributed is speaking as the Church of Progress ideology as a bad thing but it sounds like you think that is a good thing.

 

It is all very unclear to me and clarity is important to me so I can understand what you are getting at.

[Immortal4life]

so what does this have to do with your statement that :Any ancient find by any archaeologist or anthropologist that I have ever read about, heard about, or seen on tv, was given a superstitous purposes and meaning by anthropologists.

 

Church of Progress ideology is ultimately one of the major reasons that Anthropologists and Archaeologists attribute superstitious meanings to the ancient artifacts that they discover.

 

I think you contradict yourself and are not really looking at or examining what you are professing and quoting.

 

I don't see how you possibly could come to that conclusion.

 

Consciousness is a spinoff of matter? you lift your works unattributed to an author http://www.jawest.com/sekhmet2.htm

 

The dogma may be unofficial and unwritten, but it is demonstrably Church of Progress dogma nonetheless. The church Credo goes something like this: the universe is an accident; matter precedes mind; consciousness is a kind of spin-off of matter; human life, indeed, all life, serves no higher purpose. Spiritual and sacred are no more than euphemisms for superstition. There is no consciousness higher than our own (at least not on this planet) and no possible transformation of the material into the spiritual. There is only Progress, hope defrayed into the future. Jacob's ladder no longer bridges the gulf between heaven and earth. It has been laid flat along the ground. Given enough time, science and technology will establish their version of heaven right here on earth.

 

Unattributed? I posted a video with John Anthony West letting him speak in his own words.

 

Sounds like who you quote unattributed is speaking as the Church of Progress ideology as a bad thing but it sounds like you think that is a good thing.

 

How do you possibly interpret my words as saying the Church of Progress is a good thing? I have clearly stated it is at the root of many problems in many scientific fields.

 

It is all very unclear to me and clarity is important to me so I can understand what you are getting at.

 

You may be apparently confused, but I don't see how my words are not clear and simple.

[ralis]

@Immortal4Life,

 

Your anti-science rant is boring! Obviously, you still believe that mythology should be taught in the same classroom as science and be treated as science. The problem is that beliefs and opinions are not part of the scientific process!

[Immortal4life]

The problem with your statement is that scientists already view data through their own beliefs, preconceptions, prejudices, biases, and opinions.

 

What some people consider Mythology also, can in fact sometimes be validated through science. In that case, Mythology ends up not being so mythological after all.

[steve]

The problem I see here is that if you are seperated from God, and are "unaware" of your connection to God as part of God, then you absolutely need a "Way" to regain that awareness, you need a path back to God.

 

The statement that "We just need to wake up" sounds good and seems spiritual at first, but it is ultimately inadequate.

 

 

 

I have defined the Way, it is conforming to the nature of God, and the nature of the Universe. Whatever path that one follows, and whatever specific methods one uses, the underlying requirement is that the way follows the Nature of the Universe.

 

The best statement I have ever read about The Way, is by Jesus, To Love thy God with all thy Heart, all thy Soul, all thy Mind, and all thy Strength, and to love thy neighbor as thyself.

 

That is the Way back to God, the Way is Love. Awareness is not the Way, it is the end result.

 

So the problem with your understanding is that it doesn't give anyone a way to awareness. It's circular logic. It's saying "The path to Awareness is through becoming more Aware". It offers no practical method or principle to actually achieve awareness.

How can you conform to the nature of God and the universe without first being aware of it? Without being deeply aware of life and yourself. Your closest connection to God is inside, not outside (although, in reality, they are the same, inside is just easier to feel, hence all of the meditative techniques including prayer among the spiritual disciplines).

 

"To Love thy God with all thy Heart, all thy Soul, all thy Mind, and all thy Strength, and to love thy neighbor as thyself."

Beautiful quotes - the first part is from the daily Jewish prayer book and originates in Deuteronomy - way before Jesus. The second part - Love thy neighbor, is from Leviticus, also long before Jesus. I would bet these same sentiments pre-date Judaism as well. This stuff is very basic and inherent in all of the great traditions.

 

Awareness is not an end result or an achievement or even a state of being, it is an activity, a practice. Awareness is to pay attention with your eyes, ears, nose, tongue, fingers, heart, and consciousness to everything that is in you and everything that is around you. Pay close and diligent attention. Watch your relationships. Watch your behavior and your thoughts and feelings. How you react to others and situations. To understand yourself and your relationship to others. To say that I am using circular logic is a ridiculous and gratuitous assertion. I simply never thought it necessary to spell out what awareness means - sorry about that. I assumed that everyone participating in our discussion understands what awareness means - my error.

 

Now, since we are talking about methods, how does one follow the nature of God and how does one follow the nature of the universe? How does one know the nature of God and the universe to follow it? Do you know the nature of God and the universe in order to follow them? If we are being honest, you will answer that this way is defined in a book, in words. Not possible. The nature of the universe and the nature of God can never be captured in words - that's just human ignorance and arrogance. Only one way - to be AWARE. That is the first step (and really the only necessary step).

 

What is love? Define it for me please. You still have not defined your terms: soul back of the image, image, Love principle, and so on.

 

How can there be love without awareness? How can I love my neighbor if I am not aware of him and aware of our relationship? That would be a superficial love indeed. It's easy to say, I love, but you must feel it. To love without awareness would be forced and artificial and insincere indeed. True love only arises when we are fully aware of our interconnection and interdependence with others. This cannot occur in un-awareness. And when that awareness is present, love arises naturally and effortlessly.

 

I agree with you that there are keys to the truth in the Christian scriptures (and the Jewish, Islamic, Daoist, Buddhist,... as well). On the other hand, I think that you need to look at it differently. You're too wrapped up in belief in keywords and phrases. It doesn't help. You need to look at reality, not a book. It will take a while but with patience you will see the truth. Then there is no need any more to believe because you will know.

 

The ultimate goal is to see and feel the truth. The connection of all things. Their relationship to God (if you like to use those particular 3 letters of the English alphabet). You cannot do this without being aware. Yes, you need to find love but you will never understand love without awareness, you will only be using empty words and concepts.

 

Why is it that so many of us are trying so hard to discuss this with you when you are so clearly set on your path? It shows that we love and would like to help. But is it really our place to do so? I wonder about that sometimes.

 

As always, peace and good luck on your path.

[stan herman]

In reading the preceding I was struck by the inherent difficulties in trying to explain the 'spiritual' in words--especially when one is attempting to evaluate the great variety of prescriptions for spiritual growth--moving toward God. So many words, so many interpreters of those words, so many different places on the road (Tao).

 

Perhaps most problematic is trying to fit the ineffable essence within the framework of conventional logic. Are religion, spiritual beliefs and faith aids to realization or obstacles? Which comes first, seeing the connection of all things (as Steve notes), or recognizing that all things are illusory. Are these contradictions of each other, or do they synthesize somewhere outside the framework of logic?

 

At this point in time my own view is that logic and faith(s)--including in the Tao--need to be set aside as soon as practicable in one's developmental process. Rather than believing of disbelieving particular principles or teachings, one needs to learn to suspend both belief and disbelief (at east temporarily) in favor of just becoming available.