Rickson Gracie Yoga and energy breathing practice

[Guest sykkelpump]

dobble post

Edited December 12, 2010 by sykkelpump

[Sloppy Zhang]

Those were not "ima artists". Those were practitioners of.... I dont even know what. Either some sort of Japanese kiai practice like its labelled as, or perhaps just people with cult followings who made things up.

 

IMA generally refers to the chinese fighting arts of Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang.

 

5ET's description included qi transferring, qi attacking aspects, and things like that. A lot more than just those three go into the category if we go by 5ET's definition, and seeing as how his stories were what got this ball rolling, I'd say that's most likely what sykkelpump is referring to. As for me, I am including qi arts (including the qi transferal and qi "blasting") in my usage of the terms, to differentiate them from styles like MMA. In fact, depending on who you are asking, even those three internals do not include "magic" stuff like qi transferring attacks, but are instead highly developed martial arts that make use of the body's fully coordinated, relaxed body power.

 

lol,ok I didnt know.But that was the only ima artist I found who was willing to fight.

 

It is really amazing, because there ARE groups out there who are willing to do demos. Props to them for actually stepping up and willing to put their skills and name on the line. It's just too bad that they mostly wind up like these guys:

 

 

Not even close to how 5ET performed.

 

And seeing as how we only get stuff like the yellow bamboo guys,

 

 

It's no wonder people don't have a high acceptance for qi based martial arts, whether you believe you can shock people with it or not. ESPECIALLY when someone says that a qi transferring attack can incapacitated an MMA guy, as 5ET relates.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Guest sykkelpump]

It's not legitimate martial arts. It's students who want to worship their master, or are pressured by the social dynamics to act things out and go along with it. Suggestion, hypnosis, placebo, whatever else you want to call it.

 

You just can't fight someone without touching them.

You should explain what is your definition of ima.I have never belived in it and have no interest for it.But it has always been clear to me that empty power is the basic of internal art.and that internal art utilizes chi power,to make impact create fields around them copntrolling the opponent etc,with or without contact.Am i copletley wrong here,anybody?

[Guest sykkelpump]

5ET's description included qi transferring, qi attacking aspects, and things like that. A lot more than just those three go into the category if we go by 5ET's definition, and seeing as how his stories were what got this ball rolling, I'd say that's most likely what sykkelpump is referring to. As for me, I am including qi arts (including the qi transferal and qi "blasting") in my usage of the terms, to differentiate them from styles like MMA. In fact, depending on who you are asking, even those three internals do not include "magic" stuff like qi transferring attacks, but are instead highly developed martial arts that make use of the body's fully coordinated, relaxed body power.

 

 

 

It is really amazing, because there ARE groups out there who are willing to do demos. Props to them for actually stepping up and willing to put their skills and name on the line. It's just too bad that they mostly wind up like these guys:

 

 

Not even close to how 5ET performed.

 

And seeing as how we only get stuff like the yellow bamboo guys,

 

 

It's no wonder people don't have a high acceptance for qi based martial arts, whether you believe you can shock people with it or not. ESPECIALLY when someone says that a qi transferring attack can incapacitated an MMA guy, as 5ET relates.

Yes,but from what I have newly been learning fromm imortal4life,this is not internal arts.internal arts need contact like external arts.thats why they call it internal i guess.

Or maybe it an easier way to know.it seems like if they loose it is not real internal.The real ones hide someplace in China,very difficult to be found have I been told recently.And it makes sense,I think they are impossible to find

[Sloppy Zhang]

You should explain what is your definition of ima.I have never belived in it and have no interest for it.But it has always been clear to me that empty power is the basic of internal art.and that internal art utilizes chi power,to make impact create fields around them copntrolling the opponent etc,with or without contact.Am i copletley wrong here,anybody?

 

You can read a bit about the origins of the classification of Wudang chuan and Neijia, as well as shaolion chuan other "external" arts on their respective pages. Basically, they were general classifications and in no way were the arts in those classifications set in stone. One person may cite only tai chi, bagua, and xingyi in "internal" arts. Others include arts like bajiquan, which have internal and external components. Though "shaolin" arts are typically considered "external" arts, even shaolin has meditative and energetic aspects, so the line gets blurry even then.

 

Some people prefer classifying according to an art's origins (as with shaolin and wudang), but a bit of research shows that arts sprung up all over the place- some arts, like tai chi, despite the legendary origin stories, cannot be traced (reliably) through history to wudang at all (in fact, Chen tai chi can be traced to the SHAOLIN TEMPLE!!!)

 

As with many labels, it seems their use was based on how convenient they were to the author at the time.

 

Even within the styles, varying levels of mysticism and capability are applied to the internal and "qi" aspects. Many people say that it is just high levels of sensitivity, relaxation, and coordination. I have heard a story of a member of the Yang family who had a bird perched on his finger, and the bird could not take off, because the man's sensitivity was so precise that he'd lower his finger just enough that the bird could not push off.

 

I've seen it retold in a different manner hundreds of times: that he used his qi to paralyze the bird.

 

As much as I'd like to believe in the qi aspect, the high level of sensitivity just makes more sense with observations.

 

Now you've got various other arts, like those 5ET described. They attribute a higher level of mysticism and power to the aspects of qi, and talk about being able to affect people by them. This leads into stuff like Mo Pai, qi blasters, empty force, and other things. Are they "internal"? Not in the sense that, at the time of internal arts definitions, they weren't popular. But with even a bit of research you see that the names were pretty much reflective of the author's opinions, and just happened to catch on, and through the years arts have debated over how much ground the terms cover.

 

IN SUMMATION:

 

Labels are stupid, and even members of the same aren't can't always agree what they are, or rank priorities differently.

 

I believe arts need to prove themselves. If you can paralyze well trained, experienced MMAists with qi, that shit needs to be proven. If you aren't willing to prove it, you know, that's your prerogative. So pass people on to someone else. If you aren't, again, that's your prerogative. Everyone has a right to privacy.....

 

Just.... don't go around telling your experiences that are so much more fantastic than everything else that's out there, and then turn it around on the people who are asking questions and giving them a hard time.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Immortal4life]

No offense at all, but yes, you are completely wrong about what Internal martial arts are.

 

IMA means Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang.

 

Some people believe the term internal comes about because 3 masters, 1 in each of those arts, decided to combine their schools and cross train with each other. So those became the 3 arts internal to their combined schools.

 

Other people think internal means arts with a Daoist influence to them, meaning Daoism is internal to China, where Buddhism would be external to China.

 

However, I dont think these theories are strictly correct. Internal means development of internal aspects such as the Mind and Breathing. Different internal martial arts have different methods, but the one underlying trait is the specific use of the Dantien and core to lead all external movements.

 

You can see in this video, the man has a stick placed at his dantien, his center of gravity, and you can see how he literally and specifically is using his dantien to move the person on the other end of the stick-

[fiveelementtao]

You should explain what is your definition of ima.I have never belived in it and have no interest for it.But it has always been clear to me that empty power is the basic of internal art.and that internal art utilizes chi power,to make impact create fields around them copntrolling the opponent etc,with or without contact.Am i copletley wrong here,anybody?

 

Sykkel, you are mistaken on what IMAs are. There are two definitions. 1:The original definiton and 2:the popular definition and the third is the nonsense you are talking about. 1: Internal means martial arts that were invented from within (internal) china. 2 Martial arts that incorporate Qi power in their strikes, traps and takedowns.

Tai Chi is an internal martial art because it was invented in China AND incorporates qi power.

 

Here is an example of External Tai Chi Applications, ( I have no idea if this guy uses Qi power, but you can imagine the effectiveness if qi is also applied in these applications)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBA7LsumNGs

[Sloppy Zhang]

Sykkel, you are mistaken on what IMAs are. There are two definitions. 1:The original definiton and 2:the popular definition and the third is the nonsense you are talking about. 1: Internal means martial arts that were invented from within (internal) china. 2 Martial arts that incorporate Qi power in their strikes, traps and takedowns.

Tai Chi is an internal martial art because it was invented in China AND incorporates qi power.

 

Here is an example of External Tai Chi Applications, ( I have no idea if this guy uses Qi power, but you can imagine the effectiveness if qi is also applied in these applications)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBA7LsumNGs

 

How would you describe the art that you described, which used qi to easily debilitate someone even with a few glancing blows? Internal because it was developed in China?

 

That is a lot different than some of the other internal martial arts, which, while they talk about being able to generate a lot of power very easily, don't mention much about shocking people in the ways you did.

[fiveelementtao]

How would you describe the art that you described, which used qi to easily debilitate someone even with a few glancing blows? Internal because it was developed in China?

Go back and read that post again. You may be misinterpreting what I said. there are two examples, the first guy was overwhelmed by the speed. (I was training 4 hours a day back then) That's what stopped him, not the qi power. Because he was my friend, I did not use any real chi power in the strikes. I wanted him to know that I knew that I was much faster than he was.

 

In the second example, I hit the guy,s forearm with my closed fist HARD. hard enough to let him know that in my style, there is no such thing as sparring. You either shoot to kill or you don't pull your gun. In that scenario I did use qi power and it did disable him. But to anyone watching, it would look like I pounded his forearm with my fist. But it is true that what he felt was the power of the strike from my internal energy. I fyou remember his comment back to me was that he thought I hit him with a pressure point. I did, but that is not what stopped him...

That is a lot different than some of the other internal martial arts, which, while they talk about being able to generate a lot of power very easily, don't mention much about shocking people in the ways you did.

I don't know about others. IME, many internal martial artists don't truly understand qi application. The old secretive guys do. If one can find one of those guys, you will see real speed, real power and real qi power also

[Guest sykkelpump]

Sykkel, you are mistaken on what IMAs are. There are two definitions. 1:The original definiton and 2:the popular definition and the third is the nonsense you are talking about. 1: Internal means martial arts that were invented from within (internal) china. 2 Martial arts that incorporate Qi power in their strikes, traps and takedowns.

Tai Chi is an internal martial art because it was invented in China AND incorporates qi power.

 

Here is an example of External Tai Chi Applications, ( I have no idea if this guy uses Qi power, but you can imagine the effectiveness if qi is also applied in these applications)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBA7LsumNGs

well,you think this is impressing?almost feel sorry for your understanding about fighting or lack of experience

this is the traditional martial arts bullshit,sparring an non resisting opponent with techniques that would make you look stupid in a real fight.the other guy is doing nothing,WHATEVER YOU DO WILL WORK AND LOOK GOOD,PLEASE USE YOUR HEAD.wake up man.Why call this internal by the way.Its like bad karate etc.

Anyway,gotta go.ufc starts right now.watch it and think about this clown in this video.how do you think his method would work?

I want use more energy here,live in a fantasy world if you frefer,you are not alone

[Guest sykkelpump]

Sykkel, you are mistaken on what IMAs are. There are two definitions. 1:The original definiton and 2:the popular definition and the third is the nonsense you are talking about. 1: Internal means martial arts that were invented from within (internal) china. 2 Martial arts that incorporate Qi power in their strikes, traps and takedowns.

Tai Chi is an internal martial art because it was invented in China AND incorporates qi power.

 

Here is an example of External Tai Chi Applications, ( I have no idea if this guy uses Qi power, but you can imagine the effectiveness if qi is also applied in these applications)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBA7LsumNGs

well,you think this is impressing?almost feel sorry for your understanding about fighting or lack of experience

this is the traditional martial arts bullshit,sparring an non resisting opponent with techniques that would make you look stupid in a real fight.the other guy is doing nothing,WHATEVER YOU DO WILL WORK AND LOOK GOOD,PLEASE USE YOUR HEAD.wake up man.Why call this internal by the way.Its like bad karate etc.

Anyway,gotta go.ufc starts right now.watch it and think about this clown in this video.how do you think his method would work?

I want use more energy here,live in a fantasy world if you frefer,you are not alone

[fiveelementtao]

well,you think this is impressing?almost feel sorry for your understanding about fighting or lack of experience

this is the traditional martial arts bullshit,sparring an non resisting opponent with techniques that would make you look stupid in a real fight.the other guy is doing nothing,WHATEVER YOU DO WILL WORK AND LOOK GOOD,PLEASE USE YOUR HEAD.wake up man.Why call this internal by the way.Its like bad karate etc.

Anyway,gotta go.ufc starts right now.watch it and think about this clown in this video.how do you think his method would work?

I want use more energy here,live in a fantasy world if you frefer,you are not alone

Sykkel, now you're just being a dick. I'm putting you into the managed blocked users bin and I'm outta this thread...

[Immortal4life]

Here is another clip of a Tai chi throw, the internal part IMO is that he is using his center, his core, to do it, and not purely technique

Edited December 12, 2010 by Immortal4life

[Sloppy Zhang]

Go back and read that post again. You may be misinterpreting what I said.

 

What you said then:

I was barely grazing him but letting enough qi energy into the body shots so he could feel it. He ended up covering up in a ball saying "Ok, Ok, I give I give." He then got up and said "how did you do that?" I shrugged and said that I was just grazing him. He said "No, seriously, how did you do that? I've never seen anything like that. I couldn't do anything!" I said. "That is internal kung fu."

 

vs.

 

What you say now:

the first guy was overwhelmed by the speed. (I was training 4 hours a day back then) That's what stopped him, not the qi power. Because he was my friend, I did not use any real chi power in the strikes. I wanted him to know that I knew that I was much faster than he was.

 

Then:

He adopted a defensive posture and I tapped him very lightly on the forearm releasing some qi into his enormous forearm. His eyes welled up with tears, his face got very pale and he said, "no fair you hit a nerve center." I said, "yeah. I only gave you 5% energy. Wanna spar for real this time?"

 

vs.

 

now:

In the second example, I hit the guy,s forearm with my closed fist HARD. hard enough to let him know that in my style, there is no such thing as sparring. You either shoot to kill or you don't pull your gun. In that scenario I did use qi power and it did disable him.

 

Soooooo.... yeah, that's where I'm getting it.

 

I don't know about others. IME, many internal martial artists don't truly understand qi application. The old secretive guys do. If one can find one of those guys, you will see real speed, real power and real qi power also

 

It'd be nice to come across someone like that.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[VCraigP]

nice to see you dipping your toe in again.

 

If I had the means and circumstances I would study directly with 5ET in Boise ASAP.

 

Hey Mike. Please come to Portland anytime, I want to experience your work directly. :-)

 

No really.

 

Respect.

 

Craig

[taowanderer]

v

Edited July 9, 2011 by taowanderer

[mike1234]

No matter how you label it, fighting comes down to punching, kicking, kneeing, stomping, biting, scratching, elbowing, poking, pushing, and wrestling.

 

99.9999999% of internal martial arts do not incorporate any kind of sparring, and do not foster the violent intent that is needed to win an altercation.

 

MMA/BBJ are often taught as a ring SPORT, so these guys are use to the whole *preamble* of a fight: They are use to squaring off and agreeing to fight --- This is not what a true self-defense practitioner trains. The pluses for the MMA/BJJ group is that they spar with violent intent--- NO they don't kill each other, but it's none of that pussy-footing you see in a lot of traditional martial arts. Another major PLUS is that they are conditioned to FIGHT.

 

In times of stress you rely on your training. If your training only consists of some sloppy drills with out any violent intent or sparring--- Good luck.

 

My theory is that TMAs are meant for self-defense, not the ring. This means that a self-defense practitioner avoids the whole preamble of a fight: Preamble is described as trash talking, squaring off, taking a stance, and agreeing to a fight. Side stepping the preamble means that when someone becomes a threat to your safety in ANYWAY you take action--- You take them out without any hesitation-- No preamble! Self-defense doesn't mean you wait for the guy to throw a blow, if he/she/it approaches you in a hostile manner (invades your space) take them out! A couple of states in the US have now extended their laws for self-defense to include any kind of threat. Good guys don't start *hit, so normally their fights start with someone attacking them in some way-- Don't wait on the attack! Get your arse out of there are stop the BG before he has a chance to do anything.

 

That's my theory of self-defense--

 

Most martial arts work great in the NO PREAMBLE system of defense, but not so well in the ring or in extended agreed upon fights.

 

I believe that the OP with the super secret external qi enhanced fighting style was able to beat his opponents because MOST people do not know how to deal with a sudden flurry of strikes. The same kind of attack would probably wouldn't work within the preamble nature of the ring or agreed upon street fight.

Edited December 13, 2010 by mike1234

[Cloudhand]

No matter how you label it, fighting comes down to punching, kicking, kneeing, stomping, biting, scratching, elbowing, poking, pushing, and wrestling.

 

99.9999999% of internal martial arts do not incorporate any kind of sparring, and do not foster the violent intent that is needed to win an altercation.

 

MMA/BBJ are often taught as a ring SPORT, so these guys are use to the whole *preamble* of a fight: They are use to squaring off and agreeing to fight --- This is not what a true self-defense practitioner trains. The pluses for the MMA/BJJ group is that they spar with violent intent--- NO they don't kill each other, but it's none of that pussy-footing you see in a lot of traditional martial arts. Another major PLUS is that they are conditioned to FIGHT.

 

In times of stress you rely on your training. If your training only consists of some sloppy drills with out any violent intent or sparring--- Good luck.

 

My theory is that TMAs are meant for self-defense, not the ring. This means that a self-defense practitioner avoids the whole preamble of a fight: Preamble is described as trash talking, squaring off, taking a stance, and agreeing to a fight. Side stepping the preamble means that when someone becomes a threat to your safety in ANYWAY you take action--- You take them out without any hesitation-- No preamble! Self-defense doesn't mean you wait for the guy to throw a blow, if he/she/it approaches you in a hostile manner (invades your space) take them out! A couple of states in the US have now extended their laws for self-defense to include any kind of threat. Good guys don't start *hit, so normally their fights start with someone attacking them in some way-- Don't wait on the attack! Get your arse out of there are stop the BG before he has a chance to do anything.

 

That's my theory of self-defense--

 

Most martial arts work great in the NO PREAMBLE system of defense, but not so well in the ring or in extended agreed upon fights.

 

I believe that the OP with the super secret external qi enhanced fighting style was able to beat his opponents because MOST people do not know how to deal with a sudden flurry of strikes. The same kind of attack would probably wouldn't work within the preamble nature of the ring or agreed upon street fight.

 

Got to remember true martial arts is to use your mind first and avoid the fight. Street fighting and MMAs is nothing but drama. Move Slowly Cloudhand

[Sloppy Zhang]

Got to remember true martial arts is to use your mind first and avoid the fight. Street fighting and MMAs is nothing but drama. Move Slowly Cloudhand

 

Avoidance is great.

 

But what do you do when the fight comes to you?

 

What happens when you are targeted BECAUSE you do not fight?

[johndoe2012]

Avoidance is great.

 

But what do you do when the fight comes to you?

 

What happens when you are targeted BECAUSE you do not fight?

 

Run, Forrest, run...

[Spectrum]

Open the Door

Let them Come

Spin their Head

Edited December 19, 2010 by Spectrum

[ben]

I have only trained in Chinese martial arts. Southern Mantis, Tian Keyan Ba Gua, Hsing I. Currently I am studying Wu style tai chi , yielding is the skill I now want to develop. I have been in a lot of street fights , including an altercation last year with two guys, I have never lost,I have taken hits and been stabbed but I have always been able to defend myself and walk away. I would always avoid going to the ground in a fight, ever seen someone get their head kicked in while being held down? Not pretty.

 

If you can find an authentic teacher any CLASSICAL fighting art will give the means to defend your self because these systems were designed for the battle fields i.e. to maim or kill. To put it bluntly, in 'sport' you can't claw your opponents face/eyes, knee them in the balls, choke them to stop blood supply to the brain, strike with short power to damage their organs.If your not training to develop these skills then you are not training in a realistic martial art. Have any of you faced a guy with a knife?

 

Southern Preying Mantis, Hsing I, Baji Quan, Ba Gua , Tai Chi , authentic Shoalin develop short power strikes that can seriously maim or if your skillful enough kill an opponent. In my experience this is the skill that counts on the street.

 

Respectfully....I am not a master, I still have a lot to learn, peace.

[Christoph]

many valid points here.

just to throw in my 2 cents....who would do better in a knife wielding,nut kicking,eye poking scrap-a 185 lb athletic sport fighter who trains full force with relatively safe technique or a 135 lb Kung Fu nerd with delusions of power and a multitude of fantasy techniques?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Run, Forrest, run...

 

And when someone ELSE is the target, do you protect them or run away?

 

When a friend or loved one is targeted, do you just run away and leave them to their fate/karma?

[ben]

Size means nothing in a fight.What is eye poking?? Eye gouging would stop most attackers unless maybe they were on hard drugs like meth. If you know how to choke the wind pipe you can end a fight- tiger claw really works.

 

Plenty of martial artists have delusions of power, unless you have tested your self on the street then you don't know the worth of your system. In my experience training in Chinese styles has been invaluable. Footwork, speed, power, always targeting the head and vital points and most importantly you learn to fight without damaging your health- chinese boxing is practical.