Knee problems..

[NeiChuan]

I've been going to the chiropractor for alignment issues although.. I started training again anyway.

 

Pretty much one leg gets worked out more then the other from stances and my right knee has been getting pains and such popping all that stuff.. Was wondering if any of you have some feedback that could help.

 

Thanks

[Ryan T.]

I've been going to the chiropractor for alignment issues although.. I started training again anyway.

 

Pretty much one leg gets worked out more then the other from stances and my right knee has been getting pains and such popping all that stuff.. Was wondering if any of you have some feedback that could help.

 

Thanks

 

What kind of training? Standing chi kung-type stuff or boxing-type stances?

 

Which stances? Can you reverse/alternate these stances(shouldn't you be doing this anyway?)?

 

Are you stretching, especially at the end of training sessions?

 

Is the pain on the sides of the knee or the top and bottom?

[joeblast]

ride a bike, bro

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

If it persists, you may look into something like this:

 

http://www.bulletproofknees.com/

[joeblast]

that looks pretty good, coherent table of contents and good reviews....hundred bucks though!

[dwai]

I've been going to the chiropractor for alignment issues although.. I started training again anyway.

 

Pretty much one leg gets worked out more then the other from stances and my right knee has been getting pains and such popping all that stuff.. Was wondering if any of you have some feedback that could help.

 

Thanks

 

Check your stance...perhaps you are putting too much strain on your knee. A good rule of thumb is to commit physically to about 70% of your capability. I read this in BKF's books and I found that they are very true.

 

Gradually, as practice deepens, your 100% keeps expanding...so your 100% today will become your 70% at one point (and so on).

 

I've had problems with my left knee and i put it down to two things:

 

1) going too low/deep in my stances (partially as a machismo thing)

2) not releasing into the ground (so the stress instead of grounding, stays localized in the joints).

 

Hope you feel better soon.

 

dwai

[DaoChild]

What kind of training? Standing chi kung-type stuff or boxing-type stances?

 

Which stances? Can you reverse/alternate these stances(shouldn't you be doing this anyway?)?

 

Are you stretching, especially at the end of training sessions?

 

Is the pain on the sides of the knee or the top and bottom?

 

Yep, key questions. Answer those and we can give some pieces of advice.

 

I too have improper bodily alignment issues, and my right knee gets strained way more than my left when i do Zhan Zhuang.

 

If you know it's alignment, fix that.

 

But you can also fix a lot of other issues like making sure the knee and foot track properly, not going so low, stretching, and so on.

[NeiChuan]

Mm well thanks everyone.. Liked the bike reply lol..

 

Also yeah im fixing alignment now and getting alot better another thing would be I stress alot and just stay that way in the 90 degree posture..

 

Hm thanks alot guys I'll put this into practice.

[goldisheavy]

I've been going to the chiropractor for alignment issues although.. I started training again anyway.

 

Pretty much one leg gets worked out more then the other from stances and my right knee has been getting pains and such popping all that stuff.. Was wondering if any of you have some feedback that could help.

 

Thanks

 

I've had some knee problems too. Here's what helps me. It's two things. One of them I learned in a wu-shu class long time ago.

 

Stand straight with your legs together. Bend down enough to put your hands on your knees. Your knees should now be together and slightly bent. It should feel comfortable. If you don't feel comfortable, you're doing it wrong, as this is not a stretching exercise at all. Feet should be together. Now with your hands on your knees, without using any kind of unnecessary pressure or force, begin rotating your knees clockwise 5 times. Then counterclockwise 5 times. And repeat this a number of times. This should smooth out and lubricate your knees. When I do it, I may at first hear some popping, but very soon all sounds stop and the knees feel nice and smooth and I can feel some good healing going on too.

 

Do this regularly before you go into any stance. We would always do this in my wu-shu class before any stance exercises and we did a lot of those. I've since been using this little knee rotation exercise for my entire life, long after I quit practicing wu-shu. It's a keeper.

 

Another thing that helps is squats. Before you start squatting, you should do the exercise above. Then squat something very easy, like 20 times without any weird stuff (not one legged squats, don't jump, don't do anything other than plain old squat). Use minimal force to do the squats and don't rush too fast, but don't go too slow either. The point of this is not to get strong, but to improve your joints. This is why 20 is plenty. When you do 20 squats for a 2 weeks to a month, you are ready to bump it up to 30 or 40. Use your own wisdom to determine how much exactly. It shouldn't be strenuous because this is not for strength development. If you continue squatting like this, without overdoing it, maybe do it 3-4 times a week, you should see some good improvements.

 

Eventually your knees will be strong enough to do one legged squats without any problems, you just have to take your time and work your way into it. One legged squat is something I do sometimes that puts more burden than usual on my knees and this is why I sometimes have knee problems if I am not careful, but if I am careful, there is no problem whatsoever, even if I do 25 one legged squats or weighted, etc.

 

Another important point is this: do you run/jog? If yes, make damn sure you don't heel stomp during running. I spent about 6 months retraining myself to use a proper running technique that avoids heel stomping and this has benefited me tremendously. For a long time I couldn't even run 1/4th of the distance I could run using my old broken technique, but health is more important to me than volume. Eventually I could run with the new technique better than before, so don't despair if this affects you. Heel stomping can create all kinds of problems in the joins, including knee problems. Briefly, the proper way to run is to land on the bowl of your foot (and not on the heel), the heel should be less than half an inch up from the ground, in other words, to an outside observer it seems like the heel almost touches the ground, but in reality the heel never takes a direct hit from the ground. The landing spot is right below your center of gravity. The motion should feel like you are rolling or falling forward, very easy, and the legs feel like springs.

Edited September 23, 2009 by goldisheavy

[NeiChuan]

Mm Thanks Gold.

 

About heel toe running - Tarahumara indians.. Run in sandles hundreds of miles (Believe it or not).They originate from mexico and theres only a handful left, there lessons are only recently discovered and passed to other people now so thats good.. But they are being pushed outta've where they live and killed too which is bad..

 

Some of them complete full marathons even some being 90 years old.. One reported marathon win the guy was 55 years old.

 

Anyway yeah Very interesting tribe..

 

But so the knee problems arent tied to this accidently I must say I've had them since before and they were worse then.

 

Anyway thanks very much.

 

Oh and one more thing.. Yeah your totally right about landing on the balls of your feet.. When you land on your heels all the impact goes to your bones/tendons.

Edited September 23, 2009 by NeiChuan

[Birch]

Heh, the knee issue is just one of the things that brought me to TTB;-)

 

So I've just got a "proper" yoga teacher (amongst other things) who goes via the seemingly anal but absolutely fascinating Iyengar approach to alignments. How long do you spend getting into to stance? Do you just pop in there and then sail off into whatever is next or do you spend some time checking all the parts so you actually are aligned before anything else?

 

The things I've been learning about most recently are (amongst others) how to properly weight on which bits of feet, tuck tailbone and how to turn tops of thighs and outer groin to support overall alignment. The knees come with.

[NeiChuan]

"Do you just pop in there and then sail off into whatever is next or do you spend some time checking all the parts so you actually are aligned before anything else?"

 

Lol Yeah I actually check out alignment first.. Sometimes I just wing it.. but usually to make sure I check everything out. It changes when your in the stance.

[Birch]

"It changes when your in the stance."

 

This is awesome.

 

So what do you do then?

[NeiChuan]

Well I can only show in person.. Its 90 degrees with feet pigeon toad.. All I can say theres ALOT more to the stance.

 

 

Anyway yeah my alignment will change through the stance.. sadly.. lol.

[Birch]

"Anyway yeah my alignment will change through the stance.. sadly.. lol."

 

I don't know what there is to be sad about it;-)

I'm getting into just noticing the changes. Was a time (I was told) I couldn't tell my ass from my elbow... Now I'm getting so I can tell you which bone/joint/articulation is where in relation to all the rest. Of course that stuff stops you (me) from thinking about anything else Maybe when I get better at it I will be able to do all that stuff at the same time;-)

[NeiChuan]

lol

[Gigi]

that looks pretty good, coherent table of contents and good reviews....hundred bucks though!

 

http://www.tmuscle.com/readArticle.do?id=1127149

 

a good summary of the book.

 

You have to buy the book only if you are very seriuos about training and the real causes about knees pain.

 

I hope it can help

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

http://www.tmuscle.com/readArticle.do?id=1127149

 

a good summary of the book.

 

You have to buy the book only if you are very seriuos about training and the real causes about knees pain.

 

I hope it can help

 

Hi Gigi,

 

Thanks for a great reference. I do believe that knee problems are the effect of hip and/or ankle problems, and usually do not manifest in isolation.

Edited October 9, 2009 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Yuen Biao]

Stand straight with your legs together. Bend down enough to put your hands on your knees. Your knees should now be together and slightly bent. It should feel comfortable. If you don't feel comfortable, you're doing it wrong, as this is not a stretching exercise at all. Feet should be together. Now with your hands on your knees, without using any kind of unnecessary pressure or force, begin rotating your knees clockwise 5 times. Then counterclockwise 5 times. And repeat this a number of times. This should smooth out and lubricate your knees. When I do it, I may at first hear some popping, but very soon all sounds stop and the knees feel nice and smooth and I can feel some good healing going on too.

 

This is a good exercise and one often taught in Qigong. As far as I was aware it was to be practised in multiples of three, six or perhaps even nine times in each direction.

 

Another variation is to stand on one leg, knee bent slightly (making sure the balance is rooted) and just rotate the knee clockwise in small circles.

In the sense one is just letting the leg 'go' below the knee; this really opens up the joint. One can repaet accordingly and also do the same for the ankle.

 

The 'popping' is actually fluid around the joints.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Yuen Biao

[goldisheavy]

Another variation is to stand on one leg, knee bent slightly (making sure the balance is rooted) and just rotate the knee clockwise in small circles.

In the sense one is just letting the leg 'go' below the knee; this really opens up the joint. One can repaet accordingly and also do the same for the ankle.

 

Thank you for this variation Yuen Biao. I have two questions:

 

What do you do with the other leg? Does it go to the front like in cat stance, to the side, or to the back, or are you allowed to do whatever you think is best with the other leg as long as it's off the floor?

 

Do you always rotate the knee clockwise, no matter which leg you're on? If not, then which direction do you rotate in for the right and for the left leg specifically?

 

The 'popping' is actually fluid around the joints.

 

This part is interesting. My friend who spends a lot of time with Chinese masters (who don't speak English) told me that Chinese people think that popping is a good sign and it's good to pop all your joints. But in Russia people believe the opposite. People think that if you are popping in any of your joints, you are out of shape. Russian people, when they exercise regularly, stop popping. They don't pop and they don't advise to elicit the popping sound on purpose.

 

So I was wondering if you have heard anything about this, or otherwise, what's your opinion on the popping? Is popping something to practice on purpose or is it something that's best to let pass?

[Mattimo]

You should get a "SCENAR." Try Googling it for some more info. Expensive little thing but it is absolutely amazing.

[BigJonMud]

The best thing ive ever done for my knees is following Mantak Chia's Iron shirt stance instructions.

[z00se]

told me that Chinese people think that popping is a good sign and it's good to pop all your joints. But in Russia people believe the opposite. People think that if you are popping in any of your joints, you are out of shape. Russian people, when they exercise regularly, stop popping. They don't pop and they don't advise to elicit the popping sound on purpose.

 

So I was wondering if you have heard anything about this, or otherwise, what's your opinion on the popping? Is popping something to practice on purpose or is it something that's best to let pass?

 

I have chinese tai chi teacher in china and he says the popping is bad. In my experienced the more popping you get more more you will get it in the future. To reduce popping i try to change my action slightly also try to use my mind, imagine as i'm doign the movement that it's going very smoothly without any popping, after a few times it really starts working as i'm imagining

 

Your knee exercises are good. I've done the myself for a while. My tai chi style is very low and hard on the knees. Guys who have been doing it for years still get sore tendons on the knees. I guess it's slow strengthening up. Few girls said after about 2 years they feel fine and doesn't hurt any more. They practice every day though!

[Yuen Biao]

Sorry been off site for a few days....

 

Thank you for this variation Yuen Biao. I have two questions:

 

What do you do with the other leg? Does it go to the front like in cat stance, to the side, or to the back, or are you allowed to do whatever you think is best with the other leg as long as it's off the floor?

Think of it like 'Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg' in Taijiquan (except with the knee not so high), the standing leg should not be locked but rooted and relaxed at 'bubbling spring'.

 

Do you always rotate the knee clockwise, no matter which leg you're on? If not, then which direction do you rotate in for the right and for the left leg specifically?

One should also rotate clockwise at least this is natural for me. I actually start rotating with the ankle, then the knee and finally opening the hip.

 

This part is interesting. My friend who spends a lot of time with Chinese masters (who don't speak English) told me that Chinese people think that popping is a good sign and it's good to pop all your joints. But in Russia people believe the opposite. People think that if you are popping in any of your joints, you are out of shape. Russian people, when they exercise regularly, stop popping. They don't pop and they don't advise to elicit the popping sound on purpose.

 

So I was wondering if you have heard anything about this, or otherwise, what's your opinion on the popping? Is popping something to practice on purpose or is it something that's best to let pass?

My only experience is based on Chinese thoughts and that of my teacher who has spent many years in China. I do not think it is necessarily a bad thing as over time these 'pops' will be less frequent the more you train in Taijiquan or Qigong because the joints will be relaxed, open and conditioned accordingly.

But as I was aware the sound was interpreted as fluid from the Chinese perspective.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Yuen Biao