Michael Sternbach

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About Michael Sternbach

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  1. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Those pieces of obsidian coming from a remote source over a long period of time suggest the use of rather advanced maritime technology for purposes of systematic exploitation. This ties in with the picture Plato painted, referring to an Egyptian priest whose knowledge about prehistoric Greece was impressively accurate IMO. Why we haven't found more archaeological evidence backing it up so far can be explained. Also, relatively recent excavations at sites like Jericho and Göbekli Tepe already demonstrated our generalized views of prehistoric societies as hunter-gatherers to be woefully inadequate. Plato's prehistoric Greece became a distinct possibility. That being said, I agree that there is no hard evidence for that - or for most other things shared in this thread. Presenting tidbits is all I can do for now. None of those will be sufficient by themselves to revolutionize anybody's view of ancient history. Taken all together, they may be forming a beautiful jigsaw for us to behold eventually. That is, for those who are willing to allow that picture a chance to emerge. Poo-pooing whatever is shared right away as not being valid or sufficient evidence will effectively block the process for the adamant sceptic. But that's their choice to make, to be sure.
  2. Klonk ...

    Hi Sea Turtle, Since you have a connection to Chinese culture, you surely know that the world is supported by a giant turtle? And we find the same concept in Hindu and native American mythology,so I guess it must be true... Welcome to the forums! Michael
  3. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    The objection has been raised that lack of archaeological evidence refutes the existence of an advanced prehistoric Greek society as described by Plato. This, however, is incorrect. Several unexpected discoveries (reported by T. W. Jacobsen in the magazines Hesperia and Scientific American) were made at Franchthi Cave in the Argolid, most importantly evidence of advanced Aegean seafaring as early as the eleventh millenium B.C. Small amounts of obsidian found in that cave stem from approximately that time and have been identified as originating on the island of Melos, about 90 miles southeast of Franchthi over open seas. And this is not some singular odd discovery, as there were further specimens found in all the following layers, hinting at a long standing maritime tradition. Franchthi Cave today overlooks the Bay of Koilada, however, in Late Paleolithic times, it was four to five miles inland due to lower sea level. Any ports (and perhaps also settlements) associated with it would have been submerged later. Greece in general looked very different in Late Paleolithic times, as Van Andel and Shackleton elaborated in their article "Paleolithic and Mesolithic Coastlines of Greece and the Aegean" (Journal of Field Archaeology 9, 1982). In brief, the Greek peninsula was much larger than it is today, before the extensive coastal plains it had at the time were covered by the immense amounts of glacial meltwater at the beginning of the present inter-glacial period. Van Andel and Shackleton believe that this led to the demise of whole populations specializing in coastal plain resources. Their most important settlements would have been precisely in those lowlands submerged today, and it should not surprise us that we have found but little traces of them so far. Additionally, there is evidence of a period of heavy rains in the northeast Mediterranean midway through the eight millenium, which may have led to the dissolution of the inner landscape as well. Interestingly enough, the Egyptian priest telling Solon about Atlantis and prehistoric Athens in Plato's Critias (111) describes Greece as a mere remnant of her former size, this being the result of deluge, earthquakes, and erosion: The Critias goes on to inform us that the postwar deluge and earthquakes (besides destroying Ur-Athens, as we read in the Timaios) denuded the Acropolis and greatly diminished its size. And we can safely assume that the other Greek nations of the time that Plato mentions in passing were overcome in a similar fashion, because the only survivors of those apocalyptic times were "rude mountain folks". Once again, the interested reader is referred most of all to M. Settegast's outstanding treatise Plato Prehistorian for further details.
  4. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Did the Germans that were occupying France in WWII become French? Plato's description really sounds like a world war. The Atlanteans were attempting to control especially the Mediterrenean area. First, they were opposed by various countries, but eventually, the Athenians were on their own. Plato isn't specific about how long the Atlanteans had been occupying any particular area, but his description sounds more like a dramatic series of events going down. How much time there was for cultural intermixing is subject to conjecture. No, that was when Solon was visiting Egypt (around 600 B.C.) and heard the story. According to the Egyptian priests that were keeping those records, the war happened 9000 years prior to Solon's visit, so around 9600 B.C. This is sometimes treated as the date of the cataclysm, however, strictly speaking the latter took place at an unspecified time after the Atlanteans had been struck back. Plato describes the Atlantean horse training courses and battle chariots in detail. He says nothing about drinking milk, though he talks about the bull playing a central role in the Atlantean religion.
  5. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Atlanteans, not Europeans though... And yes, proto-Athenians. Both civilizations getting destroyed in the course of the same cataclysm. Nope. But Athena may have been a Libyan goddess originally. And one way to read Plato implies that Athena, coming from a foreign land, founded prehistoric Athens with an indigenous people. That must have happened some time before Athen's war against the Atlanteans, of course. But there is no archaeological evidence for that, at least until now. The events were inscribed on pillars in the Neith temple at Sais, where the Greek states-man Solon learned them from Egyptian priests. According to Diogenes Laërtius, Solon had a brother named Dropides who was an ancestor (six generations removed) of Plato. Solon's information about Atlantis was supposedly passed on to Plato in the way of a family tradition. Celtic culture as we know it came much later in history. But despite the time gap, there certainly seems to be some connection. I intend to come back to this topic later.
  6. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    The war in which the prehistoric Athenians struck back an overly imperialistic Atlantis that had conquered much of the then-known world took place prior to the cataclysm that destroyed both civilizations.
  7. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Plato lets the Egyptian priest tell Solon that Athena (aka the Egyptian goddess Neith) founded Athens after the Earth goddess Gaia and the god Hephaestus provided “the seed of your race (of Athenians)”. Flambas thinks this statement might imply that Athena/ Neith arrived in the area of Athens from a distant place and united with the pre-existing native population to create the city. Interistingly, it seems like the cult of Athena originally started in Lybia. Athena/ Neith then founded the Egyptian city of Sais one thousand years later or about perhaps 8.600 B.C., apparently without the help of other gods. This statement might mean that colonisers from Athens travelled to Egypt and founded Sais one thousand years after Athens was founded. A five-thousand-year-old wooden label with the name of King Aha shows the symbol of Sais inside a wooden compound. This artefact indicates that Sais was already an important cult centre at the beginning of Egyptian history, around 3100 B.C. And the cult of the city’s patron goddess Neith was practised at least as early as the 1 st Dynasty, ca. 3100-3050 B.C. Prehistoric Athens didn't sink into the sea but (again according to Plato) was destroyed by a massive earthquake that was part of the same cataclysmic event that led to the submergence of Atlantis.
  8. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    That's the reason I made Plato's Atlantis the central theme of this thread, which does not mean that there can't be any detours whatsoever, as long as we get back on topic. As for the war between Atlantis and prehistoric Athens, Settegast has extensively explored that topic from a historic perspective, and I hope to present some of her conclusions soon.
  9. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Plato was describing a world in which a prehistoric Athens existed at the same time like Atlantis, i.e. until somewhen in about the tenth millenium B.C., when both civilizations were destroyed in the same cataclysmic event. While any claims of humans that weren't hunter-gatherers existing so far back in time seemed ludicrous to academic scientists until recently, what we know now about places like Göbekli Tepe, Çatal Hüyük, Jericho proves that larger societies capable of advanced feats of architecture, agriculture etc. existed much earlier than hitherto accepted.
  10. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Following Plato, we must indeed suppose a cataclysmic (i.e. catastrophic) event, such as the dramatic increase in sea levels following the impact of a comet in the Arctic ice sheet (which talked about in my February 17 post), as opposed to the relatively slow rise occuring due to the gradual melting of the glaciers during the first several thousand years of our current inter-glacial epoch. Alternatively - and more in accordance with Plato's account - we might assume a sudden sinking of the Atlantic Island due to terrestrial activity as suggested by Flambas, Zhirov and others. The Greek historian Diodorus Siculus tells us that Atlas (the first son of Poseidon and Cleito, and the first king of Atlantis) was gifted in the art of astrology and was the first to present to mankind the doctrine of the sphere, for which reason he is said to have supported the vault of heaven on his shoulders. As evidenced by the structure of Atlantis with its aqueducts, and especially of its capital Poseidonis with its big circular channels . The following article gives a good general overview of these glacial climatic oscillations, called Dansgaard-Oeschger (D-O) cycles: https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/abrupt-climate-change-during-the-last-ice-24288097 However, not all areas of the globe were equally subject to such climatic changes; thus, in order to determine how our supposed Atlantic Island was doing during the last ice age, we have to turn to more specialized surveys. A quick search (lasting a mere three hours or so ) brought up J. E. Hertzberg: "Decadal- to centennial-scale tropical Atlantic climate variability across a Dansgaard-Oeschger cycle", which explores to what extent the Cariaco basin, lying off the north central coast of Venezuela, was affected by such climatic fluctuations. This seems like a good approximation, since the Venezuelan basin is perhaps the most plausible location for our submerged island, as suggested by Dr. P. P. Flambas in his aforementioned book Plato's Carribean Atlantis - A Scientific Survey. Long story short, the article concludes: Agriculture may in fact have started much earlier than generally believed. Specimens of cultivated wheat (Triticum dicoccum) were retrieved at a neolithic site in Nahal Oren, Israel, from a level indicating an age of approximately 16.000 years. Grinding tools have been found in the vicinity as well. However, the authors of the respective article (being careful academics) don't consider the evidence fully conclusive. Source: T. Noy et al.: "Recent Excavations at Nahal Oren, Israel", in: Proseedings of the Prehistoric Socienty, vol. 39, Dec 1979, pp. 75-99. If the megalithic site of Göbekli Tepe was indeed the result of an Atlantean influence (which seems to be a reasonable assumption), it may have been built under the direction of just a small group of settlers - who eventually mingled with the natives. Yes, that's a good question that made me rattle my gears already a number of times. My conclusion so far: If we imagine some global cataclysm had eradicated our technological civilization with all the comforts that it provides. Those of us who had the opportunity would naturally turn to native tribes accustomed to living in nature for help to survive. Any of our more advanced technological items would soon stop functioning and be destroyed, however, the more knowledgeable among us about science and technology may pass on whatever they can to their descendants and to the natives. Isn't it conceivable that we would figure out ways to preserve as much information as possible even over many generations, with heavy losses and distortions perhaps, but recoverable when circumstances permit? And that one day, some geniuses would build a culture in some ways resembling our own on that foundation? I wonder, how would genetic science know what to look for? How would it affect the genetical record if the Atlanteans had simply been Cro-Magnon humans that settled in regions where we know the latter existed? Also, I don't believe that human genetics are particularly well understood, overall. Quoting the 2014 National Geographic article "Oldest Burial Yields DNA Evidence of First Americans" by K. Than: I may have some more on genetics later, but I have to look for it first. Well, it has been suggested for the Great Sphinx and the temples associated with it... For submerged structures off the coast of the Bahamas... For the city of Tiahuanaco in the Andes... But none of this is undisputed - and before anybody gets worked up about what I said in passing, I'd ask to keep your arguments pro and con for the specific topics to be launched soon. Many cultures have preserved memory of a 'mother civilization' that existed in the Atlantic ocean, though. IMO, the evidence is for that is compelling! We will look at some of that material in topics dedicated to Egypt, the Americas etc. Bear in mind that we barely see beyond the veil that the last ice age has spread. Present day understanding of our human history is woefully incomplete; at best, we have scratched the surface, IMO. I propose that Atlantis is just the tip of the iceberg - there were indeed more sophisticated cultures, knowledge of which has come down to us in mythology and esoteric lore. And I have little doubt that future excavations will bring much undreamed of archaeological evidence to the light of day. How much more do we know about ancient times than people a hundred years ago, and yet how much more will be found within a hundred years from now...
  11. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    The structure of the Atlantic Island and its capital. Indications of the esoteric knowledge possessed by the Atlanteans. Some more about the possible location of Atlantis. (Especially Zhirov's book contains alot of material pertinent to that and processing it takes a bit...) Some more also about the prehistoric world at large that Atlantis existed in and that Plato to some degree includes in his description. .
  12. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Especially in regards to what we accept as factual. Let me see... I come from a place of (alright, what I consider to be) inner knowledge, and I am intrigued to find evidence that is in line with my intuitions. Not that I wouldn't trust them... But it helps me fill in the blanks and also to demonstrate to others what I basically knew all along. Thanks, so do I. As elaborated on in my OP. That Wikipedia article is crap. M. Settegast doesn't deny the reality of Plato's Atlantis, and most certainly she doesn't equate it with Magdalenian culture. She just writes she doesn't know how its existence can be explained in spite of lacking geological evidence, although her book presents plenty of archaeological/historical evidence for it. Funnily enough, N. Zhirov (whose book I repeatedly mentioned above) says exactly the opposite: He presents geological evidence for the existence of the Atlantic Island, but says he is not aware of any historical facts that would back up the myth. Oh, I see: They "have been explained" - I suppose by "authorities" in the field?! Wow, fantastic! File closed. And no danger that any textbooks would ever have to be rewritten! Phew... Oh great! Mr. Nungers can't find the 'originals', therefore the images in the book of M. Settegast (a well-reputed scholar) are likely faked... The caves mentioned are in different locations (and it seems like the pictures are not even shown). And how does Hancock (not "Handcock") suddenly come into play? Maybe suggesting you should be medicated while writing your posts wasn't such a good idea after all... Uhm, I hate to break it to you, but this link just shows the cover image of the book, with no horses in sight whatsoever. I don't see that post as seriously deviating from this thread's subject as stated. For your convenience, once again, here it is... Some of this is quite interesting. Thanks. So I gather that the question of paleolithic horse domestication is being debated. Like most of the topics touched on in this thread...
  13. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    What I proposed in my OP was meant as a guideline. But of course I was aware that in a thread like this one, there is an inevitable tendency for the discussion to get sidetracked, and if I would have wanted to rigorously avoid that, I would have had to start this topic in my PPD. But I decided not to do that, as I intended to invite wider participation, plus I think that some digression can actually be worthwhile. I was intentionally giving the (mostly) interesting discussion so far some room to unfold before I was going to introduce new material. As a matter of fact, I was told that the information contained at least in my earlier posts was pretty dense, and I was asked to slow down. A brief summary seems like a good idea. Thanks, mate! Summary Insofar it pertains to the topic, up to now: we were looking at the time frame suggested by Plato, how it ties in with end of the last ice age, and the plausibility of that; we determined how big we should expect the Atlantic Island to have have been; we started discussing some possible locations for the Atlanteran civilization, including some that seem to digress from Plato's descriptions at first, but may tie in with the Atlantean colonies that he hints at; we looked at the hypothesis of an Atlantean influence on the glacial Magdalenian culture; we considered why and in what ways the Atlantean civilization may have advanced beyond any other at the time and what the indications of that were - which took us a bit off-topic into Egyptian masonry. And now it seems necessary to introduce new material to keep this topic going into the intended direction, and to open up at least one spin-off thread real quick for dealing with the 'Egyptian connection'. Stay tuned for that, please... Oh, and I used 'deluge' in the header as a poetic way to refer to the submergence of Atlantis. And yes, this may tie in with both the 'Biblical flood' and the global rise of sea levels at the beginning of the current inter-glacial period. I think it's a good idea if I next give you an outline of what in particular I still wish to cover in this current thread.
  14. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    All of that may indeed have a meaning... ...although it is probably not to be taken literally. That said, I would not dismiss any ideas regarding human contact with aliens (be in times ancient or modern) a priori. E.g., many American Indian tribes have legends about 'star people'. However, that's a different discussion, and from my perspective, we can treat the 'lost civilization' topic quite apart from it. Yeah, it is neither necessary nor even possible to be fussy in a thread like this. My idea for it, however, is to use Plato's hypothesis as our primary frame of reference. Well, much as with aliens, you seem to have decided that magic (at least the kind that seemingly defies the laws of physics), dragons and flying horses are BS - whereas these and many other things for which there is little objective proof in some way constitute very much a part of the world that I am living in. We can simply agree to disagree here, though. I remain sceptical regarding the conclusiveness of what you presented so far even factoring in the vast workforce supposedly available to a pharaoh - but as I said, I am looking forward to more of your material once we are going to talk specifically about the idea of our lost civilization's influence on Egypt. Expect me to start that proposed thread on this any moment now, as this one is going more and more off the rails. Alright, let's leave all that for the dedicated topic. This is nothing but ridicule - best to be ignored. Yes, considerations regarding how Magdalenian culture may tie in with Plato's Atlantis do belong here. Here goes: These are Magdalenian engravings from (a) St. Michel d' Arudy, (b) Grotte de Marsoulas, (c) La Marche. (Illustration scanned from M. Settegast: Plato Prehistorian, p. 27.) I somehow doubt that you will find this really convincing (and won't be losing any sleep over it, TBH), however, the book text accompanying these pictures says: I was talking about this post which you neglected to comment on so far.
  15. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    These are all very important questions that you are asking. And as long as there is no unambiguous archeological evidence available, the way to proceed is to lay out the indications that archeology, history, mythology, even psychics provide and to see how it all may fit together. In essence, that's what people like Bauval, Collins, Schoch, Hancock are doing, and that's what I am intending with this thread, to whatever extent it may be possible. Taking the available evidence and formulating theories, which may or may not be proven eventually, that's the methodology of academic sciencists too, of course, except that they are being more cautious with their conclusions than most of the popular 'Atlantologists'. This is sometimes a good thing, however, official science does have its biasses and blinders too, and many a professor won't dare to touch a topic that is too controversial, fearing for their reputation. Thus it takes people like Hancock et al. to address a wide audience and that way to start and stir the necessary discussion. Plato is a good point of reference in this discussion, IMO, in which speculation abounds. After all, it was him who first taught us about Atlantis, and moreover, about so many things that are now central to philosophy, both orthodox and occult. Most of all, we tend to see those societies through our own cultural biasses. Thus, for a long time, it was generally believed by academics that there was little mysticism in ancient Egypt, just because some of the defining criteria for the latter set up by those same academics were not being met - when ancient authors as well as modern esotericists had been telling us all along about Egypt's profound spirituality all along! However, it took Jeremy Naydler's book Shamanic Wisdom in the Pyramid Texts: The Mystical Tradition of Ancient Egypt to make the idea at least more acceptable to academic science. So I believe that it is the mystics, esotericists, occultists (and I would count e.g. Graham Hancock and John Anthony West among those) that have the edge over academic scientists when it comes to understanding ancient cultures, as they are more likely to do so in the latter's own terms. But again, I by no means deny the importance of the archeologist's discoveries... I just think we can use and learn from all those contributions to the field. "The mind is like a parachute: It only works when it's open." - Ed Parker