Michael Sternbach

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Everything posted by Michael Sternbach

  1. Hi fellow Bums As a few of you may already know, I spent the last one year or so researching the history of some ancient cultures (such as the ones in Egypt, the Americas, Britain, the Pyrenees, amongst others), leading all the way back to the legendary civilization of Atlantis which I believe to be a historical fact. - Based on so many pieces of evidence. This topic is linked to a larger book project I have been pursuing for a couple of decades by now. In regards to its historical section, I am intending to share some of my source material as well as original work in a series of threads, in the hope of finding some resonance and, if possible, a fruitful discussion. Also, be free to ask any questions that may come to mind - I will answer them to the best of my ability. A good place to start our journey into the deep past seems to be the temporal demarcation line drawn by the end of the Last Glacial Period. However, before we depart, it seems to be a good idea to take a look at the topic of the ice ages in more general terms. Since very early geological times, our planet has been going through a series of ice ages, alternating with long warm periods in which our globe was entirely free of ice. The first ice age (called the Huronian) started about 2.4 billion years ago and lasted for 300 million years. It was later followed by the Cryogenian Ice Age lasting 165 million years from 800-635 mya, which was possibly the most severe of them all and might have produced a “Snowball Earth”, in which the Earth iced over completely. A minor series of glaciations then occurred from 450-420 mya, which was followed by more extensive glaciations again for 100 million years from 350-250 mya. More recently, an increase in glaciation on Earth started when ice began to build up over Antarctica about 36 mya during the so-called Eocene Epoch. It was probably related to the breakup of the supercontinent Gondwana, with a drift of the Antarctic continent toward the South Pole and the development of ocean passages around the Antarctica. Globally, temperatures markedly decreased then during the Middle Miocene (about 15 mya), probably as a result of the increased ice growth on Antarctica. The oceans cooled partly due to the formation of the Antarctic Circumpolar Current when ocean currents circled the Antarctic continent without reaching warmer latitudes. At the opposite pole, the Greenland ice cap began to develop in the Middle Pliocene, about 3 mya. Before then, Arctic areas were comparatively warm, with trees and bushes growing far north of the present treeline. The Quaternary Ice Age is the most recent ice age. Ice sheets began to spread over North America and Eurasia around 2.5 mya. This initial glaciation was followed by a series of warmer interglacials (each lasting 10,000-30,000 years) and renewed glaciations (each lasting 70,000-90,000 years) in alternation. Within the Quaternary Ice Age, the most recent phase of glaciation is called the Weichselian/ Wisconsin Glacial Epoch. During its peak, ice sheets covered extensive areas above 40-50º North in both Eurasia and North America. It reached its maximum around 18,000 BC, whereafter the glaciers slowly started melting. That glaciation phase ended for good - and indeed rather abruptly - around 9,600 BC. Due to the slowly melting ice sheets, the global sea-level rose about 60 meters between 18.000 to 9,600 BC, and an additional 50-60 metres until 6000 BC, when it finally reached the level it has today. During those times of rising sea-levels, many islands were covered by water and sediments, and at the same time, much of what once used to be coastal land is now underwater and tens of kilometers out to sea. This explains why man-made structures have been found submerged in various locations off the coasts, with many more supposedly yet to be found. Stories of a deluge in numerous cultures all around the globe may well represent 'collective memories' of those prehistoric changes. For instance, the Bahama Archipelago (identified by the "sleeping prophet" Edgar Cayce as the location of the lost civilization of Atlantis) used to be a coherent dry land mass off the coast of Florida. The part remaining above sea-level today is just a small fraction of its prehistoric extent. Other locations for Atlantis suggested by various researchers include the Greater and Lesser Antilles (also located in the Carribean) as well as the Azores. If interest warrants it, we will be looking into those various theories in more detail later. So while there remain many questions yet to be answered, it strikes me as rather remarkable that a date around 9,600 BC (i.e., around the end of the Weichselian/ Wisconsin Glaciation) was indicated for the destruction of the island of Atlantis in the very source of the story, Plato's late dialogues Timiaios and Critias. Plato's information seems to have come down to him via the Greek statesman Solon, "the wisest of the seven sage", who in turn had received it from Egyptian priests while visiting the very ancient city Sais in the western Nile delta. Again, we should have an opportunity to talk about that in far more depth later. I wish to conclude this introductory post on the note that the Quaternary Ice Age isn't over yet - it continues to the present day. Although the Earth is at present luckily in an interglacial called the Holocene Era, the Quaternary Ice Age might continue for possibly millions of years into the future, as have several past ice ages. If previous glacial-interglacial cycles are any indication of future cycles, it is likely that the present warm interglacial period will end sometime between tomorrow and 20,000 years from now. Then, massive glaciers will advance from the north again, covering much of North America and Eurasia. That being said, we do not need to fret over that possibility right now, as glaciers and ice sheets have been melting and the global sea-level has been rising at an average rate of 1.8 mm per year since 1961, and 3.1 mm per year since 1993. If this trend continues and the ice caps should fully melt, it is estimated that the Antarctica Ice Sheet would contribute more than 60 metres of sea-level rise, and Greenland would contribute more than 7 metres. Go figure! However, it is not unusual for relatively short, somewhat warmer periods to occur both during glacial and interglacial phases. As for the current rise in temperature, its exact causes remain controversial (not least on this board) - however, that is not the theme of this thread! Please reserve THAT debate for one of the thread especially dedicated to it, such as this one: Here, I intend to be looking at the Atlantis legend as shared by Plato in connection with the end of the last Ice Age (to put it more simply) and then to move on to explore other aspects of that lost civilizations and the inheritance that may have been received from it by subsequent cultures that we have more factual knowledge about. An important source for what has been presented here was P.P. Flambas' book Plato's Carribean Atlantis - A Scientific Analysis, which I warmly recommend to anybody with a serious interest in the topic. Material from various other sources has been added, of course. Please try to stay more on less on topic as outlined and try to post comments of a more general nature in our previous TDB Atlantis thread. Thanks! And feel free to discuss.
  2. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Those pieces of obsidian coming from a remote source over a long period of time suggest the use of rather advanced maritime technology for purposes of systematic exploitation. This ties in with the picture Plato painted, referring to an Egyptian priest whose knowledge about prehistoric Greece was impressively accurate IMO. Why we haven't found more archaeological evidence backing it up so far can be explained. Also, relatively recent excavations at sites like Jericho and Göbekli Tepe already demonstrated our generalized views of prehistoric societies as hunter-gatherers to be woefully inadequate. Plato's prehistoric Greece became a distinct possibility. That being said, I agree that there is no hard evidence for that - or for most other things shared in this thread. Presenting tidbits is all I can do for now. None of those will be sufficient by themselves to revolutionize anybody's view of ancient history. Taken all together, they may be forming a beautiful jigsaw for us to behold eventually. That is, for those who are willing to allow that picture a chance to emerge. Poo-pooing whatever is shared right away as not being valid or sufficient evidence will effectively block the process for the adamant sceptic. But that's their choice to make, to be sure.
  3. Klonk ...

    Hi Sea Turtle, Since you have a connection to Chinese culture, you surely know that the world is supported by a giant turtle? And we find the same concept in Hindu and native American mythology,so I guess it must be true... Welcome to the forums! Michael
  4. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    The objection has been raised that lack of archaeological evidence refutes the existence of an advanced prehistoric Greek society as described by Plato. This, however, is incorrect. Several unexpected discoveries (reported by T. W. Jacobsen in the magazines Hesperia and Scientific American) were made at Franchthi Cave in the Argolid, most importantly evidence of advanced Aegean seafaring as early as the eleventh millenium B.C. Small amounts of obsidian found in that cave stem from approximately that time and have been identified as originating on the island of Melos, about 90 miles southeast of Franchthi over open seas. And this is not some singular odd discovery, as there were further specimens found in all the following layers, hinting at a long standing maritime tradition. Franchthi Cave today overlooks the Bay of Koilada, however, in Late Paleolithic times, it was four to five miles inland due to lower sea level. Any ports (and perhaps also settlements) associated with it would have been submerged later. Greece in general looked very different in Late Paleolithic times, as Van Andel and Shackleton elaborated in their article "Paleolithic and Mesolithic Coastlines of Greece and the Aegean" (Journal of Field Archaeology 9, 1982). In brief, the Greek peninsula was much larger than it is today, before the extensive coastal plains it had at the time were covered by the immense amounts of glacial meltwater at the beginning of the present inter-glacial period. Van Andel and Shackleton believe that this led to the demise of whole populations specializing in coastal plain resources. Their most important settlements would have been precisely in those lowlands submerged today, and it should not surprise us that we have found but little traces of them so far. Additionally, there is evidence of a period of heavy rains in the northeast Mediterranean midway through the eight millenium, which may have led to the dissolution of the inner landscape as well. Interestingly enough, the Egyptian priest telling Solon about Atlantis and prehistoric Athens in Plato's Critias (111) describes Greece as a mere remnant of her former size, this being the result of deluge, earthquakes, and erosion: The Critias goes on to inform us that the postwar deluge and earthquakes (besides destroying Ur-Athens, as we read in the Timaios) denuded the Acropolis and greatly diminished its size. And we can safely assume that the other Greek nations of the time that Plato mentions in passing were overcome in a similar fashion, because the only survivors of those apocalyptic times were "rude mountain folks". Once again, the interested reader is referred most of all to M. Settegast's outstanding treatise Plato Prehistorian for further details.
  5. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Did the Germans that were occupying France in WWII become French? Plato's description really sounds like a world war. The Atlanteans were attempting to control especially the Mediterrenean area. First, they were opposed by various countries, but eventually, the Athenians were on their own. Plato isn't specific about how long the Atlanteans had been occupying any particular area, but his description sounds more like a dramatic series of events going down. How much time there was for cultural intermixing is subject to conjecture. No, that was when Solon was visiting Egypt (around 600 B.C.) and heard the story. According to the Egyptian priests that were keeping those records, the war happened 9000 years prior to Solon's visit, so around 9600 B.C. This is sometimes treated as the date of the cataclysm, however, strictly speaking the latter took place at an unspecified time after the Atlanteans had been struck back. Plato describes the Atlantean horse training courses and battle chariots in detail. He says nothing about drinking milk, though he talks about the bull playing a central role in the Atlantean religion.
  6. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Atlanteans, not Europeans though... And yes, proto-Athenians. Both civilizations getting destroyed in the course of the same cataclysm. Nope. But Athena may have been a Libyan goddess originally. And one way to read Plato implies that Athena, coming from a foreign land, founded prehistoric Athens with an indigenous people. That must have happened some time before Athen's war against the Atlanteans, of course. But there is no archaeological evidence for that, at least until now. The events were inscribed on pillars in the Neith temple at Sais, where the Greek states-man Solon learned them from Egyptian priests. According to Diogenes Laërtius, Solon had a brother named Dropides who was an ancestor (six generations removed) of Plato. Solon's information about Atlantis was supposedly passed on to Plato in the way of a family tradition. Celtic culture as we know it came much later in history. But despite the time gap, there certainly seems to be some connection. I intend to come back to this topic later.
  7. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    The war in which the prehistoric Athenians struck back an overly imperialistic Atlantis that had conquered much of the then-known world took place prior to the cataclysm that destroyed both civilizations.
  8. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Plato lets the Egyptian priest tell Solon that Athena (aka the Egyptian goddess Neith) founded Athens after the Earth goddess Gaia and the god Hephaestus provided “the seed of your race (of Athenians)”. Flambas thinks this statement might imply that Athena/ Neith arrived in the area of Athens from a distant place and united with the pre-existing native population to create the city. Interistingly, it seems like the cult of Athena originally started in Lybia. Athena/ Neith then founded the Egyptian city of Sais one thousand years later or about perhaps 8.600 B.C., apparently without the help of other gods. This statement might mean that colonisers from Athens travelled to Egypt and founded Sais one thousand years after Athens was founded. A five-thousand-year-old wooden label with the name of King Aha shows the symbol of Sais inside a wooden compound. This artefact indicates that Sais was already an important cult centre at the beginning of Egyptian history, around 3100 B.C. And the cult of the city’s patron goddess Neith was practised at least as early as the 1 st Dynasty, ca. 3100-3050 B.C. Prehistoric Athens didn't sink into the sea but (again according to Plato) was destroyed by a massive earthquake that was part of the same cataclysmic event that led to the submergence of Atlantis.
  9. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    That's the reason I made Plato's Atlantis the central theme of this thread, which does not mean that there can't be any detours whatsoever, as long as we get back on topic. As for the war between Atlantis and prehistoric Athens, Settegast has extensively explored that topic from a historic perspective, and I hope to present some of her conclusions soon.
  10. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Plato was describing a world in which a prehistoric Athens existed at the same time like Atlantis, i.e. until somewhen in about the tenth millenium B.C., when both civilizations were destroyed in the same cataclysmic event. While any claims of humans that weren't hunter-gatherers existing so far back in time seemed ludicrous to academic scientists until recently, what we know now about places like Göbekli Tepe, Çatal Hüyük, Jericho proves that larger societies capable of advanced feats of architecture, agriculture etc. existed much earlier than hitherto accepted.
  11. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Following Plato, we must indeed suppose a cataclysmic (i.e. catastrophic) event, such as the dramatic increase in sea levels following the impact of a comet in the Arctic ice sheet (which talked about in my February 17 post), as opposed to the relatively slow rise occuring due to the gradual melting of the glaciers during the first several thousand years of our current inter-glacial epoch. Alternatively - and more in accordance with Plato's account - we might assume a sudden sinking of the Atlantic Island due to terrestrial activity as suggested by Flambas, Zhirov and others. The Greek historian Diodorus Siculus tells us that Atlas (the first son of Poseidon and Cleito, and the first king of Atlantis) was gifted in the art of astrology and was the first to present to mankind the doctrine of the sphere, for which reason he is said to have supported the vault of heaven on his shoulders. As evidenced by the structure of Atlantis with its aqueducts, and especially of its capital Poseidonis with its big circular channels . The following article gives a good general overview of these glacial climatic oscillations, called Dansgaard-Oeschger (D-O) cycles: https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/abrupt-climate-change-during-the-last-ice-24288097 However, not all areas of the globe were equally subject to such climatic changes; thus, in order to determine how our supposed Atlantic Island was doing during the last ice age, we have to turn to more specialized surveys. A quick search (lasting a mere three hours or so ) brought up J. E. Hertzberg: "Decadal- to centennial-scale tropical Atlantic climate variability across a Dansgaard-Oeschger cycle", which explores to what extent the Cariaco basin, lying off the north central coast of Venezuela, was affected by such climatic fluctuations. This seems like a good approximation, since the Venezuelan basin is perhaps the most plausible location for our submerged island, as suggested by Dr. P. P. Flambas in his aforementioned book Plato's Carribean Atlantis - A Scientific Survey. Long story short, the article concludes: Agriculture may in fact have started much earlier than generally believed. Specimens of cultivated wheat (Triticum dicoccum) were retrieved at a neolithic site in Nahal Oren, Israel, from a level indicating an age of approximately 16.000 years. Grinding tools have been found in the vicinity as well. However, the authors of the respective article (being careful academics) don't consider the evidence fully conclusive. Source: T. Noy et al.: "Recent Excavations at Nahal Oren, Israel", in: Proseedings of the Prehistoric Socienty, vol. 39, Dec 1979, pp. 75-99. If the megalithic site of Göbekli Tepe was indeed the result of an Atlantean influence (which seems to be a reasonable assumption), it may have been built under the direction of just a small group of settlers - who eventually mingled with the natives. Yes, that's a good question that made me rattle my gears already a number of times. My conclusion so far: If we imagine some global cataclysm had eradicated our technological civilization with all the comforts that it provides. Those of us who had the opportunity would naturally turn to native tribes accustomed to living in nature for help to survive. Any of our more advanced technological items would soon stop functioning and be destroyed, however, the more knowledgeable among us about science and technology may pass on whatever they can to their descendants and to the natives. Isn't it conceivable that we would figure out ways to preserve as much information as possible even over many generations, with heavy losses and distortions perhaps, but recoverable when circumstances permit? And that one day, some geniuses would build a culture in some ways resembling our own on that foundation? I wonder, how would genetic science know what to look for? How would it affect the genetical record if the Atlanteans had simply been Cro-Magnon humans that settled in regions where we know the latter existed? Also, I don't believe that human genetics are particularly well understood, overall. Quoting the 2014 National Geographic article "Oldest Burial Yields DNA Evidence of First Americans" by K. Than: I may have some more on genetics later, but I have to look for it first. Well, it has been suggested for the Great Sphinx and the temples associated with it... For submerged structures off the coast of the Bahamas... For the city of Tiahuanaco in the Andes... But none of this is undisputed - and before anybody gets worked up about what I said in passing, I'd ask to keep your arguments pro and con for the specific topics to be launched soon. Many cultures have preserved memory of a 'mother civilization' that existed in the Atlantic ocean, though. IMO, the evidence is for that is compelling! We will look at some of that material in topics dedicated to Egypt, the Americas etc. Bear in mind that we barely see beyond the veil that the last ice age has spread. Present day understanding of our human history is woefully incomplete; at best, we have scratched the surface, IMO. I propose that Atlantis is just the tip of the iceberg - there were indeed more sophisticated cultures, knowledge of which has come down to us in mythology and esoteric lore. And I have little doubt that future excavations will bring much undreamed of archaeological evidence to the light of day. How much more do we know about ancient times than people a hundred years ago, and yet how much more will be found within a hundred years from now...
  12. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    The structure of the Atlantic Island and its capital. Indications of the esoteric knowledge possessed by the Atlanteans. Some more about the possible location of Atlantis. (Especially Zhirov's book contains alot of material pertinent to that and processing it takes a bit...) Some more also about the prehistoric world at large that Atlantis existed in and that Plato to some degree includes in his description. .
  13. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Especially in regards to what we accept as factual. Let me see... I come from a place of (alright, what I consider to be) inner knowledge, and I am intrigued to find evidence that is in line with my intuitions. Not that I wouldn't trust them... But it helps me fill in the blanks and also to demonstrate to others what I basically knew all along. Thanks, so do I. As elaborated on in my OP. That Wikipedia article is crap. M. Settegast doesn't deny the reality of Plato's Atlantis, and most certainly she doesn't equate it with Magdalenian culture. She just writes she doesn't know how its existence can be explained in spite of lacking geological evidence, although her book presents plenty of archaeological/historical evidence for it. Funnily enough, N. Zhirov (whose book I repeatedly mentioned above) says exactly the opposite: He presents geological evidence for the existence of the Atlantic Island, but says he is not aware of any historical facts that would back up the myth. Oh, I see: They "have been explained" - I suppose by "authorities" in the field?! Wow, fantastic! File closed. And no danger that any textbooks would ever have to be rewritten! Phew... Oh great! Mr. Nungers can't find the 'originals', therefore the images in the book of M. Settegast (a well-reputed scholar) are likely faked... The caves mentioned are in different locations (and it seems like the pictures are not even shown). And how does Hancock (not "Handcock") suddenly come into play? Maybe suggesting you should be medicated while writing your posts wasn't such a good idea after all... Uhm, I hate to break it to you, but this link just shows the cover image of the book, with no horses in sight whatsoever. I don't see that post as seriously deviating from this thread's subject as stated. For your convenience, once again, here it is... Some of this is quite interesting. Thanks. So I gather that the question of paleolithic horse domestication is being debated. Like most of the topics touched on in this thread...
  14. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    What I proposed in my OP was meant as a guideline. But of course I was aware that in a thread like this one, there is an inevitable tendency for the discussion to get sidetracked, and if I would have wanted to rigorously avoid that, I would have had to start this topic in my PPD. But I decided not to do that, as I intended to invite wider participation, plus I think that some digression can actually be worthwhile. I was intentionally giving the (mostly) interesting discussion so far some room to unfold before I was going to introduce new material. As a matter of fact, I was told that the information contained at least in my earlier posts was pretty dense, and I was asked to slow down. A brief summary seems like a good idea. Thanks, mate! Summary Insofar it pertains to the topic, up to now: we were looking at the time frame suggested by Plato, how it ties in with end of the last ice age, and the plausibility of that; we determined how big we should expect the Atlantic Island to have have been; we started discussing some possible locations for the Atlanteran civilization, including some that seem to digress from Plato's descriptions at first, but may tie in with the Atlantean colonies that he hints at; we looked at the hypothesis of an Atlantean influence on the glacial Magdalenian culture; we considered why and in what ways the Atlantean civilization may have advanced beyond any other at the time and what the indications of that were - which took us a bit off-topic into Egyptian masonry. And now it seems necessary to introduce new material to keep this topic going into the intended direction, and to open up at least one spin-off thread real quick for dealing with the 'Egyptian connection'. Stay tuned for that, please... Oh, and I used 'deluge' in the header as a poetic way to refer to the submergence of Atlantis. And yes, this may tie in with both the 'Biblical flood' and the global rise of sea levels at the beginning of the current inter-glacial period. I think it's a good idea if I next give you an outline of what in particular I still wish to cover in this current thread.
  15. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    All of that may indeed have a meaning... ...although it is probably not to be taken literally. That said, I would not dismiss any ideas regarding human contact with aliens (be in times ancient or modern) a priori. E.g., many American Indian tribes have legends about 'star people'. However, that's a different discussion, and from my perspective, we can treat the 'lost civilization' topic quite apart from it. Yeah, it is neither necessary nor even possible to be fussy in a thread like this. My idea for it, however, is to use Plato's hypothesis as our primary frame of reference. Well, much as with aliens, you seem to have decided that magic (at least the kind that seemingly defies the laws of physics), dragons and flying horses are BS - whereas these and many other things for which there is little objective proof in some way constitute very much a part of the world that I am living in. We can simply agree to disagree here, though. I remain sceptical regarding the conclusiveness of what you presented so far even factoring in the vast workforce supposedly available to a pharaoh - but as I said, I am looking forward to more of your material once we are going to talk specifically about the idea of our lost civilization's influence on Egypt. Expect me to start that proposed thread on this any moment now, as this one is going more and more off the rails. Alright, let's leave all that for the dedicated topic. This is nothing but ridicule - best to be ignored. Yes, considerations regarding how Magdalenian culture may tie in with Plato's Atlantis do belong here. Here goes: These are Magdalenian engravings from (a) St. Michel d' Arudy, (b) Grotte de Marsoulas, (c) La Marche. (Illustration scanned from M. Settegast: Plato Prehistorian, p. 27.) I somehow doubt that you will find this really convincing (and won't be losing any sleep over it, TBH), however, the book text accompanying these pictures says: I was talking about this post which you neglected to comment on so far.
  16. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    These are all very important questions that you are asking. And as long as there is no unambiguous archeological evidence available, the way to proceed is to lay out the indications that archeology, history, mythology, even psychics provide and to see how it all may fit together. In essence, that's what people like Bauval, Collins, Schoch, Hancock are doing, and that's what I am intending with this thread, to whatever extent it may be possible. Taking the available evidence and formulating theories, which may or may not be proven eventually, that's the methodology of academic sciencists too, of course, except that they are being more cautious with their conclusions than most of the popular 'Atlantologists'. This is sometimes a good thing, however, official science does have its biasses and blinders too, and many a professor won't dare to touch a topic that is too controversial, fearing for their reputation. Thus it takes people like Hancock et al. to address a wide audience and that way to start and stir the necessary discussion. Plato is a good point of reference in this discussion, IMO, in which speculation abounds. After all, it was him who first taught us about Atlantis, and moreover, about so many things that are now central to philosophy, both orthodox and occult. Most of all, we tend to see those societies through our own cultural biasses. Thus, for a long time, it was generally believed by academics that there was little mysticism in ancient Egypt, just because some of the defining criteria for the latter set up by those same academics were not being met - when ancient authors as well as modern esotericists had been telling us all along about Egypt's profound spirituality all along! However, it took Jeremy Naydler's book Shamanic Wisdom in the Pyramid Texts: The Mystical Tradition of Ancient Egypt to make the idea at least more acceptable to academic science. So I believe that it is the mystics, esotericists, occultists (and I would count e.g. Graham Hancock and John Anthony West among those) that have the edge over academic scientists when it comes to understanding ancient cultures, as they are more likely to do so in the latter's own terms. But again, I by no means deny the importance of the archeologist's discoveries... I just think we can use and learn from all those contributions to the field. "The mind is like a parachute: It only works when it's open." - Ed Parker
  17. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    And every myth has a true core, it is said. Before we may go into specific examples, it should be helpful to clarify the difference between the modern and conventional view of history on the one hand, and the classical and occultist view on the other hand. The modern, conventional view typically sees history as a process of gradual development from a relatively primitive to a more advanced state. Whereas the classical view (and in agreement with it, also the occultist view) considers history mostly a decline from a higher state to a lower state. The most prominent examples are the Greek model of the four ages (Golden, Silver, Bronze, Iron Age) and the very similar Indian model (Satya-, Treta-, Dvapara, Kali-Yuga); but we find essentially the same concept also in Persian culture, in various South/Central/North American cultures as well as in quite a few others. Typically, each age ends with a cataclysm that creates a veil obscuring that which came before; except for some kind of summary of it that is being passed on to and fertilizes the next cycle. Frankly, I am not sure where your preoccupation with super advanced technologies comes from. I stated right at the beginning of this topic that it was meant to be all about Plato's Atlantis, and in that, there is little that would speak to super advanced technologies. That said, I do consider the ancient teachings of astrology, alchemy and magic as highly sophisticated sciences/technologies in their own right, albeit naturally not in the modern materialistic understanding of those terms. What degree of mastery of those sciences/technologies may prehistoric civilizations have possessed, though? For instance, were they able to levitate huge blocks of rock using psychic forces, possibly amplified by simple means that we would not even recognize as something of a technological nature? I am all for treading carefully - but there are undeniable facts that do seem to support aforesaid classical/occultist views of history, for instance those you allude to yourself in the next paragraph that I quote: So this dude demonstrated that he can push a 1-ton block over some distance. Moreover, he lifted a block with a weight of 19.200 pounds (which translates to 8.7 tons, not 20 tons, as the title claims!) first three feet off the ground, then he stood it up eventually. While this is quite impressive alright, it doesn't come anywhere near what the Egyptians of the fourth dynasty did: Bringing 60 to 70-ton blocks up to a height of roughly 50 meters as building elements for the king's chamber in the Great Pyramid. Not to mention the 200-ton blocks our ancient masons used (much earlier, around 10.000 BC?) in constructing the Sphinx temples as though they were Lego blocks. And here, some guys using a copper saw plus water and sand managed to cut into a granite block - how deep? 10 centimeters perhaps? "In just a few days", as they say. Now lets do some simple math (which Graham Hancock thankfully already did for us in his Fingerprints of the Gods): The Great Pyramid has been reliably estimated to consist of 2.3 million blocks (most of them granite, though the no longer existing outer casing consisted of limestone). Assuming that it was under construction for 20 years (as the archeologists say) and that our diligent masons worked ten hours a day, 365 days a year, the rate that these blocks needed not only to be put in position (which Hancock's calculation refers to), but obviously also to be cut ready for use is a staggering 31 blocks an hour or about one block every two minutes! Is it just me or doesn't something quite add up here... Obviously. A LOT. Thanks for admitting that, mate! I will resist the temptation to talk at length here about the Egyptian mummy, which a hair analysis proved to contain a fair amount of cocaine, although the coca plant was completely unknown in the pre-Columbian Old World. Again, I made no claims as to the Atlanteans having used laser rays and the like... Or when Lemuria itself rises! I am indeed working on bringing up circumstantial evidence for Plato's lost civilization in what you may consider a piecemeal manner. I am not pretending that any single one of them would suffice as proof for its existence. Only once we see them all laid out on the table, we may safely draw our personal conclusions regarding the latter. I was indeed not holding a speech on Magdalenian art as such, but really just considering it as evidence for a supposed Atlantean influence. Hey, which happens to be our topic! The pictures I posted were indeed just intended as examples for Magdalenian art in general. I didn't have any pictures of those harness wearing horses ready, though there are some shown in the aforementioned book Plato Prehistorian by Mary Settegast. I shall see later (when I have time) if I can scan them and present them a little further down this thread. Again, some of the known prehistoric cultures may have been inspired by contact with Atlantean civilization - and we will look into more possible examples for that too a little further down the road. Looking forward to your comments on this and my previous post, Nungers. And of course, hoping for others to chime in again too.
  18. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Hold it right there! In the two dialogues in which he introduces Atlantis, Plato lets his protagonists repeatedly emphasize that what is being shared is NOT a fictional story but facts. Examples from the Timaios Critias: “Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages.” Socrates: “You speak well. But what is this ancient achievement which was not only actually related by Solon, but was once really accomplished by this city (Athens)?” Critias: “ ... what that event was which Solon asserted as a fact.” Examples from the Critias Timaios: “Grant that my words might endure in so far as they have been spoken truly and acceptably to him (God); but if unintentionally I have said anything wrong, I pray that he will impose upon me a just retribution, and the just retribution of him who errs is that he should be set right.” Critias: “I would specially invoke Mnemosyne (the Ancient Greeks’personification of memory); for all the important part of my discourse is dependent on her favour, and if I can recollect and recite enough of what was said by the priests and brought hither by Solon.” So it would seem like Plato, aware of his reputation for narrating allegorical stories, was making a real effort to clarify that this one was not one of them! Moreover, the story's truthfulness may be underlined by his revered teacher Socrates, who favoured truth as the highest value, testifying to it in the dialogues. And it seems doubtful that Plato would have put the reputation of Solon, his ancestor and a highly respected states-man, on the line by attributing a made up but allegedly true story to him. Also, we know from Herodotus that Solon actually travelled to Egypt, thus knowledge he received there could have been passed on to Plato, his descendant. Furthermore, in his Commentary on the Timaeus, Proclus (4th century CE) stated that the pillars in the Temple of Neith inscribed with the story of Atlantis still existed in his time (we know that this temple was gone by the 14th century CE). Then he would have been using a bad example for his beloved Athens, because the Atlanteans are portrayed as a people that Zeus decided to punish for their arrogance and that were in fact beaten back by the heroic early - Athenians! Plato was fairly particular about where this civilisation was located and furthermore gave us a plenitude of details about it which would be redundant if it was meant as nothing but an allegory. Well, if the implication would be that the Atlanteans already had washing machines with dryers, then they may not have had advanced technology. On the other hand, the ancient Romans built some aqueducts that leave us moderns puzzled over how they actually function! So in those terms, they may have been technologically advanced. I mentioned more modern ideas about Atlantis's incredible technological sophistication in passing, however, all I feel really confident to say at this stage is that this civilization must have been really advanced for its time - while leaving the actual degree and nature of that advancement open. That's a very interesting topic in its own right! I intend to dedicate a thread of its own to it and look forward to what else you have to share. I would say, Donnelly's Atlantis - The Antediluvian World was a fair attempt for its time. While some of its ideas may indeed be obsolete, a number of the author's arguments are still worthy of our consideration, IMO. However, as a detailled analysis of the text would require far more time than I am ready to dedicate to this right now, I will leave it to the interested reader to follow up on it. Donnelly's book can be freely downloaded here: http://www.duhovnirazvoj.com/ElektronskaBiblioteka/The Antideluvian world-Atlantis.pdf <Uhum> Quoting my OP: "Here, I intend to be looking at the Atlantis legend as shared by Plato in connection with the end of the last Ice Age (to put it more simply) and then to move on to explore other aspects of that lost civilizations and the inheritance that may have been received from it by subsequent cultures that we have more factual knowledge about ... Please try to stay more on less on topic as outlined and try to post comments of a more general nature in our previous TDB Atlantis thread." And while it is in the nature of any such thread to drift a bit this way and that way, I believe I did make an adequate effort not to digress too far from the stated objective in my posts. There you go, mate! Yay!!! Mind you, I actually didn't give Cayce that much credit in this topic and mentioned him only as more of a secondary source. I missed it, I am afraid, though it does make sense. See above. Nobody expects you to go to the other extreme, mate! More than just one, I hope. Alright, lets get back to work then... Tomorrow!
  19. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Hold on... Is it derived from 'lad'?
  20. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    She said 'laddies', though. Not quite sure what this means, but then, I am still working through my English 101 course...
  21. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    The thing is, I already posted some highly speculative information earlier that was expected to trigger a scornful reaction from you, yet you reacted with more speculative information (e.g. the hint at Tilak's The Arctic Home in the Vedas). Understood. However, just in case some psychotropic substance was playing a role in the amenable attitude you recently demonstrated, would you consider to continue taking it, please? Indeed. There were times I was questioning if you are a human at all. Pooling knowledge is great and I would appreciate being able to continue doing that. However, ridicule (from a certain degree on) tends to block any constructive exchange and takes the discussion to another level. Some third-party readers might still find it entertaining, however, IMO, it's not conducive to the objective of this thread. I mentioned this mostly as a preventive measure, explaining my refusal to further discuss certain issues right now. I learned from the best... And I thought you might appreciate the offer! Would I want to miss your contributions? Looking forward to it.
  22. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Again, this has been addressed already. However, you are welcome to share your material on ancient Egypt in aforesaid upcoming topic. Neither. According to Plato, Atlantis was extremely advanced for its time. That it had supertechnology in our terms at its disposal is a relatively modern idea (e.g. advocated by Cayce), however, although some historical facts may be seen as actual indications of that - from our perspective! Which brings to mind that it would have been difficult for the ancient Egyptians and Greeks respectively to pass on to future generations knowledge of things for which they had no conception. That being said, the idea of there once having been a highly advanced philosophy/science that was mostly lost, but that is partially extant in the occult sciences, is not a modern one. It played an important role for instance in the Renaissance, such as with the Italian natural philosopher Giordano Bruno, who attributed ancient Egypt with that kind of knowledge,
  23. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    You essentially asked that question already in your last post, and I replied to it in my previous post.
  24. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    I was not aware of you asking me any question in that post. Maybe because they lacked their usual obtrusiveness? Yes, but they overlap on some occasions. And I believe I was being thoughtful in regards to what term I was using when overall, although it is possible that I made a few mistakes. Not so. The ancient Egyptians believed that the foundations of their civilization were laid by 'Gods' who had come from a remote island. I will say much more on this in a subsequent topic especially dedicated to the influence Atlantis had on early Egypt. Likewise, we will see in due time that the Mayans believed themselves to be the heirs of a bringer of culture they called Quetzalcoatl. A belief shared by many other tribes all over the American double continent, BTW. And it was in fact the European settlers who attributed the city of Tiahuanaco in the Andes to the Incas - whereas the latter just laughed and said, no, it was done by mysterious beings long before their time. I could add more examples, but I will reserve that for the respective threads. However, the presented examples should suffice to demonstrate that, insofar we are dealing with "white imperialistic arrogance" in this context, it lies in disrespect towards what those peoples themselves shared regarding their origins. I have that book, though I had no opportunity to read it yet. I will at least take a good look at it before we come specifically to Egypt in one of my next threads. However, as long as nobody actually replicates some of the ancient Egyptians' most astounding feats with nothing but primitive tools, I will most likely remain unconvinced by the theories it sets forth. I am actually intending to look at Lemuria in yet another thead especially dedicated to that topic. And I am well aware of the many implausible ideas regarding it as well as of the evidence that speaks to its actual existence, in some form. The Solutrean can be seen as the last stage of the Gravettian that I solely refered to; quoting Wikipedia: "The Solutrean industry is a relatively advanced flint tool-making style of the Upper Palaeolithic of the Final Gravettian, from around 22,000 to 17,000 BP." While it is true that in the Aurignacian period humans became artisically remarkably advanced, the degradation you talk about already occured in the subsequent Solutrean. Crô-Magnon art mostly belongs to the first and the last of these three. So basically, in the Magdalene revived the topic and developed it to new heights. It is correct that Magdalenian art gained in complexity over time. Of course it is conceivable that it just took some time until the Atlantean art style could be fully integrated in the pre-existing local culture. Huh? The pictures I presented are examples of Magdalenian art. Agreed. As far as our knowledge of them goes, anyway. There may just not be very much extant for us to find, except what was relatively well protected in caves. - And just to make sure that all our readers understand this, those painted caves mentioned above were sanctuaries, not the homes of the Magdalenian people. That said, I concur that the Atlantean mother civilzation must have been considerably more sophisticated. But what we found in southwest Europe may be remnants from people that were Atlantean refugees or outcasts and that essentially had to start all over again. Or they may even have been local natives that simply evolved to a certain degree under the influence of the Atlanteans.
  25. Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge

    Nobody said without a trace. However, as I said, I would like to postbone this discussion at least until I'm done with the respective chapter of Atlantis - Atlantology: Basic Problems by Russian geologist N. Zhirov. As far as I am concerned, we can discuss speculative ideas. I was simply referring to the fact that many scientific concepts are ridiculed initially, but find general recognition eventually. Not that I usually felt inclined to wait for that...