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Defining is a tricky process. Often the mind will trick us when it fits/mangles reality into the localized mind space It is better to consider principles as alive. For example, put a scenario or proposed action next to the energy field of the principle and see if the principle is happy with the action/scenario At an abstract level my principles in ascending importance are: - right energy - right relationship - right intent. Testing is done in the cosmos in which I wish to act

I think the Secret of the Golden Flower gives stages. And just as a point of interest the Ancient Egyptians liked to map out the process (though many would dispute that this is what they were doing). I would question the idea that the goal is the Light in the first place …. I would review how you think about the goal a little I think.

Yes, I completely agree. I turn to my Mother in Heaven (and Father) for all things – all worries, all thanks. They are the (my, though I do believe our) source.

"Emptiness dissolves our sense of self and our feeling of being bounded and separated from others. Once dissolved, this compassion flows freely." – Yes, that perfectly describes what I experience when practicing Qigong. Out of stillness, compassion arises naturally—without the need to change anything. There’s also this unconditional love and a deep trust in the goodness of the source. It’s almost impossible to put into words. For me, Qigong is a powerful way to connect with compassion and to witness how it continues to grow within me, effortlessly. According to my teacher, Chunyi Lin, a significant moment of transformation occurs when you begin to feel sadness for the suffering of the world. He says this is a sign that your heart is opening. "Emptiness dissolves our sense of self and our feeling of being bounded and separated from others. Once dissolved, this compassion flows freely." For me, it feels as though this teaching is deeply connected to the Dao. The Dao is boundless — the space in which everything arises, unfolds, and returns. The more we open ourselves to the teaching, the more we also open to the innate intelligence, compassion, love, and limitless potential of the Dao. From one angle, it seems paradoxical to speak of the Dao as “empty,” because it is so profoundly alive, powerful, and healing. In Qigong, for example, I can feel the presence of Qi — and with it, a tangible connection to the Dao itself. It's as if the Dao is the source that gives rise to Qi, and perhaps also to the healing energy that flows through and beyond us. There is something deeply fascinating about this process of "emptying." In Daoist and Buddhist traditions alike, emptiness doesn't mean a void or nothingness in the Western sense. Rather, it points to the letting go of false identifications — especially the attachment to a fixed, separate self. This kind of emptiness is actually fullness: a return to the natural state, to spontaneity, to alignment with the Dao. And when we become empty in that sense — when we release what we are not — we return to what we truly are. From this space, compassion arises not as a practice or a goal, but as a natural expression of our original nature, which both Daoism and Mahayana Buddhism point to as inherently whole, interconnected, and awake. So yes, in this light, compassion is not something we need to acquire. It is an aspect of our true being, revealed when we relax into the vastness of the Dao — or, in Buddhist terms, when ignorance dissolves and the illusion of separation falls away.

Later on, he breaks down symbology, archetypes and the like: I absolutley loved it, cant reccomend his channel enough Hope we might be able to get a convo out of this, we shall see.

https://vedabase.io/en/library/transcripts/660530bg-new-york/#bb575305

Regarding entropy: "disorder in a system, randomness" I remember hearing a definition of G O D as being: Good Orderly Direction and that a measure of how aligned we are with Divinity, is the extent to which all three of those are present in our daily life: good and orderly and direction. And that we feel there is good orderly direction in our life. Instead of life feeling random and having our life in disorder.

Love, light, altruism, freedom, truth and knowledge? That’s good in my perspective, for sure. Whats bad (form my perspective)? The opposite. The good fights entropy, the bad increases it.

Just for fun , an 'original song'

This is probably a good place to put this : 7 Bible Stories and Texts with Roots in Ancient Literature . " For agnostics and liberal believers, the evidence is overwhelming that Israelite scribes and priests often based characters, stories, rituals, and prose on prior pagan myths and belief systems. This is especially evident in the so-called hero narratives, devotions, and hymns in biblical and pagan literature across the ancient Near East. "Conflicting interpretations are influenced by additions, redactions, editing, and multiple translations of extant copies of copies of ancient biblical literature and ancient texts. The provenance of relevant texts is fairly reliable, but timelines and sources of the origin of copied biblical manuscripts are often obscure ." 1. Noah , as set out in the opening post . 2. Moses and Sargon of Akkad . In the biblical story, Moses’ mother makes a wicker basket which she seals with pitch to make it waterproof. She places Moses in the basket and floats it down the Nile where Pharaoh’s daughter bathes. The latter rescues the infant and raises him as her son – with a privileged princely education, including astronomy, religion, mathematics, and writing, as attested by Egyptian correspondence about the education of foreign princes at their court. Sargon, the founder of Akkad, had a similar basket trip down the river as an infant. His mother was a priestess who birthed him in secret. She also made a wicker basket sealed with pitch and set him afloat on the Euphrates River. He, however, was rescued and raised by a humble peasant, until the powerful goddess Ishtar (formerly Inanna of the Sumerians) took an interest in him. As a youth, he became the cupbearer of the king of Kish, whom he later overthrew, before setting about building the world’s first empire. 3. Job and the 'Righteous Sufferer ( from Mesopotamia ) . Job is wealthy in property and family. Satan, at this time still an angel, challenges God that Job is only pious because everything in his life is wonderful. God accepts Satan’s challenge, who then destroys Job’s possessions, family, and finally Job’s health. Job refuses to curse God. He does not understand why he is suffering but accepts that he does not have the right to question God. The biblical story ends with God explaining to Job in beautiful phraseology the vastness and intricacy of the universe. Job’s life ends with him richer and happier than before his suffering started. The Mesopotamian story Ludlul-bēl-Numēqi or The Righteous Sufferer, has a similar background of a pious man following religious rules meticulously. Like Job, he does not understand his change of fortune. He questions his god when he loses everything, including his health. Unlike Job, however, he dies in his misery at the end of the story. Poetic descriptions in Job are similar to many pre-biblical ancient texts, including the Enuma Elish. 4. Proverbs Ecclesiastes and Egyptian teachings . To numerous to list here (see the link ) 5. Psalm 104 and Ankhenaton's Hymn to the Aton . The similarity in style, expression, and tone between Psalm 104 and the Hymn to the Aten (14th century BCE) of Pharaoh Akhenaten cannot be denied. Other similar linguistic patterns of praise and reverence ascribed to Akhenaten in worshiping the Aten as sole god, are present in wording on the Amarna boundary stelae. Similarities to biblical psalms and other descriptive biblical narratives are discernable. - this one even has its own Wiki page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hymn_to_the_Aten 6. Song of Songs and Summarian Literature. The biblical Song of Songs has similarities to the Sumerian temple hymns and Akkadian hymns, and love songs. It accompanied the annually celebrated marriage liturgy of the Dumuzi-Inanna cult and the later Tammuz-Ishtar cult of the Sumerian and Akkadian eras. The first poet whose name we know was an Akkadian high priestess, a daughter of Sargon named Enheduanna. Several of her poems and hymns survived. https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-biblical-song-of-songs-and-the-sumerian-love-songs/ 7. Bible Stories and Anonymous Mesopotamian Literature. https://www.thecollector.com/bible-stories-ancient-literature/ Some other sources ; https://historycollection.com/20-biblical-traditions-heavily-influenced-by-other-ancient-cultures/ New Cuneiform Parallels to the Song of Songs https://www.jstor.org/stable/3263757

That is fine, but it also is completely unrelated to what was being discussed. It was claimed that my request for *debate*, as you call it, was "spoiling for a fight" and at odds with my request to "be civil". I don't mind folks wanting to have a casual conversation, that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was pointing out here. Then such people will make terrible learners and will be hamstrung in their growth; if they are not open to the idea of them being mistaken, how can they learn anything substantial? Frankly, part of my goal with this topic is to learn the logic of morality used by people I disagree with so that I can understand them better, but such logic is not exposed through "yes, yes, you're right!" 'conversation'. I *want* people to show me where I am wrong, as I know there is much room left for me to grow. ...How can only one side 'win' an argument? All sides win as long as even a single flaw is pointed out, because that shows us where we can grow! For example, you have pointed out that I need to be clearer in my definitions when asking for debate, which was a blind spot for me that I will endeavor to improve. I, on the other hand, have pointed out repeatedly that what I am referring to as 'debates' are not about 'winning', something that you seem to be able to learn from as well! 😉 Is it not a kindness to take the time and energy to show others where they can grow? I know that I've benefited from others doing this for me, so I don't see it as 'belittling' or 'alienating' at all. If you (or I) don't have the education to understand a topic as it is being debated, then that is naturally something that should be pointed out and rectified. Any emotional pain here is due to ego, not ill intentions. I will grant that if you Google 'debate', a lot of what comes up is what you are describing. Perhaps the language used is shifting compared to when I was educated, or perhaps political 'debates' have muddied the waters. However, I believe I have been clear enough as to what I am requesting, so I'd rather stay on-topic going forward; if you want to continue this line of questioning, we can always make a new thread for it! How would you define your principles, then? What would break your principles? What would follow them?

yea, gotta watch out on some old vehicles, for instance if you're in a rush and close the door with the keys in the ignition and the engine is running the door then automatically locks....then its locksmith time or maybe ask a helpful car thief if you see one milling around to open it for you! (no clickers back then) Btw, TV or movies are so fake when they show some rookie hot wire a car in seconds and make a get away! (although I'm not qualified in doing that ;-)

Car yoga : Cruise control out . mechanic says that can be a nightmare . So I go online and type in the model and problem ; probably the switch connected to the brake pedal " get down there and put your hand in and push it over to the left , you have to kneel on the ground, get your head down on the drivers floor mat so you have the full length of your arm available , snake your arm up inside the dashboard and feel around until you can feel a shaft with a concertina rubber boot , follow that down until you feel the switch and push its holding cradle over to the left . My God what a contortion , the arm and body angle don't match naturally , the head is at a weird angle I am starting to get a cramp but then ...... click ! Fixed ! 1000km later ... out again , on the highway .... loosing power !???? Ohh , cruise control has dropped out - ho hum ! Pull over and do it again . Drivers going past ; " Why is that guy doing warm ups on the side of the highway ? "

https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/vounous-bowl-a-4-000-year-old-basin-holding-4-miniature-cows-and-18-people-that-was-buried-for-mysterious-reasons-in-a-bronze-age-tomb-in-cyprus

I will add though ; this doesn't mean any person or every person can just all of a sudden " Give me this " .... that teaching was specific to me and considered my whole previous life and my destiny , my teacher took that into account . Some are not that fortunate and seem to have to work through other things . More cause for thanks

Lately, something strange but beautiful has been unfolding in me. I’m currently in a phase of life where I’m looking for work. I started this process rather late because I had some psychological issues for a long time. And now, as I walk this uncertain path, I find myself doing Qigong as part of my spiritual practice – and it has quietly opened my heart. Through this, I’ve begun to feel a growing trust in God, in the Dao, in the deeper current behind life. A few days ago, I was still very anxious – "What if I don’t find a job?" – but then this gentle thought came to me: God protects me, no matter what. And suddenly, I felt this deep shift: I want to let go of my plans – the idea that I need to have this job, or that I have to secure my future. What truly matters is not what I think I should do, but what the Divine wants for me. I don’t want to chase control anymore. I want to listen. I want to trust.i got so calm that i could hear my heartbeat. That is a good sign of calmness for me It feels strange to think this way. I’m not used to it. Part of me wonders: Am I becoming passive? Irresponsible? Or is this the beginning of true surrender? Sometimes I feel like I just want to sit, meditate, and be at peace. The earthly world seems so unstable – everything is constantly changing, dying, passing. Without God, without the Dao, everything feels chaotic. But if I hand it all over, if I stop clinging to goals and outcomes, there’s a quietness that arises. And in that stillness, I feel... safe. Has anyone here experienced something similar – this strange letting go, this dissolving of personal plans in favor of divine guidance? How do you navigate this shift in daily life?

That sounds awesome that your whole life feels like that Cobie but also a bit scary to me. I think need sometimes people who have similiar experiences and Tell me that i am fine. I dont have many people who bother me negatively. Not anymore I just meditated a little while ago, and something quiet but clear came through: Source is my purpose. When I rest in that awareness, so much stillness and peace arise. But it takes mindfulness not to lose myself again in worldly goals — career, health, success, becoming someone. All these things only seem to have meaning for me when I feel deeply connected to Source. Without that, it all feels hollow. My teacher once said something that I now understand more and more: “Everything in life is ultimately a reflection of your relationship with the Divine.” I feel that. Even each thought we think is, in a way, a subtle proclamation — a declaration of how close or distant we feel from God, from Dao, from Source. It’s strange to watch my mind form goals or worries — and to realize: all of it is just movement on the surface. Underneath, there is something still, silent, whole. And the more I trust that, the more I feel that this is what matters. This is the real path.

Just yesterday a taiji student of mine, after the lesson, said her good-byes and then discovered she can't unlock her car. Reason unknown. She keeps going click click and nothing happens. Open it manually, I suggest. She tries, fails, starts hyperventilating. No she says, I can't open it manually, there's this complex sequence I never use -- twice to the left and then thrice to the right or maybe vice versa, or right first then left, and the alarm might start screaming if I keep tampering with the lock. I tell her, put down the key, stand in the Opening Pose of Laojia Yilu, drop your shoulders, suspend the top of your head from a string from heaven, breathe evenly, root deeply, now as your arms go up get the key, click again. She did. The door opened. Oh, and change the key battery I told her as she was leaving.

That’s my approach to life, that’s my faith. I am all for “trusting the divine flow”. My whole life I have felt like that. In my experience it’s sometimes necessary to tell some type of intrusive people to f**k off.

Morals and magic/k ... people hardly ever consider the two together . In the system I studied and practiced , one could not avoid the link . But I feel its a bit rare nowadays ... bottom line seems to be ' a quick way of getting things ' . I noticed little ethical education in a few neo-pagan systems as well. This might have changed - I haven't done that stuff for a while . I nearly wrote that religion has a high content of linking with morals .... but nowadays it seems involved with 'marketing' as well and big business .... in many cases religion seems to have devolved into the 'high - jacking' of spirituality .

People don't like it when their worldview is challenged, but I think it's still important to discuss these sorts of things. I sometimes refrain when it's clear the other party won't consider my words at all, but still...😅 On the thread's topic, modern marketing / advertising is the calculated process of removing free will from a subset of the population via scientifically tested techniques, thus, I do not believe it to be a moral action; magickally speaking, the closest thing would be mass mind control. Nonetheless, as a business owner, if your competition is using these tactics, your chances of survival drop considerably if you don't use them as well. When you have other people, such as your family and employees, on the line as well, the line between right and wrong is then blurred. Again, business is no different from warfare. If you wage war with weapons, your victims die quickly (ideally, most of the time), but if you conduct business, your victims die a slow and agonizing death. Both situations are still the responsibility of those up top.

also from the same Source as post just above: Dialogue is collaborative: two or more sides work together toward common understanding. Debate is oppositional: two sides oppose each other and attempt to prove each other wrong. In dialogue, understanding is the goal. In debate, winning is the goal. In dialogue, one listens to the other sides in order to understand, find meaning, and find agreement. In debate, one listens to the other side in order to find flaws and to counter its arguments. Dialogue reveals assumptions for reevaluation, and causes introspection on one’s own position. Debate defends assumptions as truth, and causes critique of the other position. Dialogue is open-minded and includes other views and solutions. Debate is closed-minded, determination to be right, excludes other views and solutions. Dialogue involves a real concern for the other person and seeks to not alienate or offend. Debate involves a countering of the other position without focusing on feelings or relationship and often belittles or deprecates the other person.

However for many people, argument and debate are neither relevant nor desired. It is seen not as a "goal" in conversation, but as a barrier and obstacle to understanding, learning, growth, and development. As the opening post astutely notes, this is not universal and it is based on personal values. Excerpt below is from a resource that compares and explores the various elements, differences, motivation, and intent within: dialogue, discussion, and debate. "In debate we try to: Judge other viewpoints as inferior, invalid or distorted Search for flaws in logic Focus on right and wrong Listen with a view of countering " "In dialogue we try to: Allow for and invite differences of opinion and experience Discover collective meaning Express paradox and ambiguity Listen without judgment and with a view to understand " Source from the University of Michigan, Program on Intergroup Relations

yes yes yes yes well said. brilliant. all of it.