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Lala, Your presence on here is very welcome. I hope you get as much from being on here as I have over the years. Don’t be afraid to express yourself - it’s all good. DaoBums has a long history now and at times it was far from being a sea of calm to say the least. What keeps it going is the membership and a flow of new members. Provided the tech doesn’t break down at some point I think we still have a long future of happy debate!

I hope it's not over, I just got here. As an outsider and not aware of the inter-relationship drama between members I will say this (and hope I'm not reprimanded for it). Often times this forum can appear to be a little snooty and highbrow, especially to people who are just beginning on whatever path they're on. This appearance is intimidating to beginner who, like myself, can be afraid to post things in fear of being banned, ridiculed or simply ignored. Forums like these- group dynamics tend to wax and wane, lot's of people come and go. The core posters have obviously known each other for over a decade, which is awesome but also comes with some troubles, and can be intimidating when new here. This is just my opinion as an introvert, who has to go over in her head several times prior to any statement I make. Maybe it's just me projecting my own insecurities of being less knowledgable than everyone else here. I don't know. The lexicon of knowledge here is unmatched on the internet. So many opinions, ideas, paths and little tidbits to glean from. It's a gem. and shouldn't be taken for granted. This forum is literally the only place that I'm aware of that discusses somewhat freely on many topics (reddit is terrible and a cesspool). Ive been lurking on here for many years, but too afraid to comment or ask questions. I'm older now so maybe I care less about what others think of me, which is why I decided to finally join. Just my 2 cents and a newcomer, who would be disappointed if this place disappeared for good.

@Taomeow recently mentioned Tiger being one of her four pillar animals, which got me thinking about my pillar animals aside from my daymaster (Metal Snake). In light of recent conversation about the fall of Dao Bums, our various goals, and the different ways we interact, I thought it would be interesting to discuss basic elements of our Bazi charts. I used bazi-calculator.com and input my birth date, time, and location (accounting for time zone offset and daylight savings). Then I took the names of each of my pillars and read about the daymaster characteristics on Hidden Sun to get an idea of how my animals relate to one another. Though only one pillar is the daymaster, I'm still using the daymaster descriptions that I have access to in order to get a general idea of the element/animal relationship. This is obviously very surface level and doesn't include a myriad of Bazi factors and metaphysical "math," if you will. But I still think it's fun and would love to learn a little more about everyone. Here's a bit about what my animals are like, which combined gives a very interesting overview. My animals are Earth Dog (Wu Xu), Fire Snake (Xin Si), Wood Snake (Yi Si), and Water Monkey (Ren Shen). Wu Xu - Earth Dog - Straightforward Xin Si - Jade Snake - Attention Yi Si - Wood Snake - Versitile Ren Shen - Water Monkey - Unpredictable I also took a look at the animals' relationships to one another: I think these descriptions are spot on, and even align somewhat with my western astrological signs Taurus, Earth Dog - Stable, Structured, Straightforward; Sagittarius, Fire Metal Snake - Charming Adventure Seeker (well, the snake still contains some fire so.. not a perfect comparison, but oh well; and Gemini, Water Monkey - Emotional Depth, In Constant Motion. My Taurean/Gemini, earth/air nature has always been at odds. Interesting to see that replicated with Earth Dog and Water Monkey relationships. I also always thought my "cold, stoic, aloofness" stemmed from my Xin Si pillar, but I see now that it comes from all of them in different ways. I quite like how I communicate, though I can see how it would benefit me to be less impersonal. It would likely benefit others to see that much of what appears as coldness in my social interactions stems from a dual desire for self-protection and self-development, not from maliciousness or judgement. I definitely love learning. It's half a safety coping mechanism (hoarding knowledge) and half... it just feels great. Like it's what I was built to do. But because I love learning for its own sake and I know the joy of discovery and/or receiving an enlightening resource, I also love curating resources for others. So in that way, I hoard, but also give. So what are your animal pillars and their personality descriptions? How well do the descriptions relate to you? What overlap is there between your natal charts of various astrological systems? What insights does your chart provide for how you interact with others, and how others can better interact with you? What animals (expressed through other people) do you engage well with, and which ones less so?

Sorry but the rule still stands. (No masturbation at the dinner table I mean of course) 😎

that is true, absolutely. thank you for the reminder. yes, voices that are compliant with the forum guidelines. I agree. The "something to offer" may be (as it is for me) "oh this is something for me to entirely steer clear of" or yes "oh this is crap that is best avoided." i had a friend at work who used this for people she absolutely could not stand, "oh, they are showing me behaviors which i find appalling, this is helpful for me so I can avoid those behaviors myself. I am learning who and what i never want to do, be or become." Reframing works wonders for me.

Not “every voice”, Jules the site owner has given clear restrictions; quite rightly so imo. Quite a few people have been banned; again quite rightly so imo. Imo every system needs to set boundaries. Some voices will be more suited to another type of forum. Not true in my experience, some are just crap and best avoided.

knowledge of the head type only can be overrated so take it with a grain of salt, so to speak. When or if a wild, wild west atmosphere develops here its really just part of the big ball of wax that goes on with human beings interactions and I'd say not to be taken all that personally heart-wise or as the only standard of acting, reacting or judgement since such too will pass...or change

Welcome Lala Nila! I´ve been here for years and often feel reprimanded, so I think it comes with the territory. But there´s a lot of friendship and support to be had too. The thing about the Bums is we´re such a varied group and I think there´s room for most everybody. People have opinions, sometimes strong ones, but we were all beginners once (and some of us are still beginners no matter how long we´ve been here!). Anyway, hope you enjoy your time here.

Add me to the list of people who stopped coming around but about once a year get the weird urge to log in and see how things are going This place was crazy back in the day, and a lot of things happened over a long period of time that changed the shape of the forum. Reddit was great for a while but always had its pros and cons, and in the last few years those have gotten more pronounced, but does still seem to vary based on the community (and sometimes even the time of day that you post!) I will also say that (and this may be me living under a rock), it doesn't seem like the qigong community itself has really changed much? It seems like most of the teachers are more or less the same, the books are more or less the same, maybe something new gets put out on a new author starts publishing stuff, are there any new crazy teachers or systems that are fueling the controversy posting that fueled the forum in years past? To me, I don't think so, but I don't even know... So you are either doing the practice, or talking about thinking about doing the practice

There are plenty of other places to discuss politics, glad it’s avoided here.

" Owww ! " .

The nine year cycle i have heard of and used at times. One of the I-Ching workbooks i used at one time had a whole series of personalized exercises and one of them was mapping out a timeline for our entire life and marking significant events and changes . When i did that it was startling to see the 9- or 10- year cycle vividly illustrated. It then talked about using it to look at the upcoming years not yet lived and then it got depressing for me and i put it away becuase it of course showed a finite endpoint. But i agree that provides useful insights. I will check out the resource, thank you. (since reading your posts i have ordered the Flying Star Feng Shui book by Skinner). Using Feng Shui has had significant impact, particularly the parts about getting rid of stuff. That was a big wake-up call for me when i read about that. I remember pulling a metal trash can out into the driveway, and burning several boxes of letters i'd held onto for 20+ years. It was one of the most freeing things i ever did for myself. i kept the fire burning for hours, and just kept adding more stuff. I burned all my wedding photos (this was several years after the divorce) and that felt wild and exciting and bold. I burned thousands of pages of letters from my mom which were a laundry list from her of all the things wrong with me. i discovered using feng shui just how good it feels to get rid of stuff and how much i love getting rid of stuff. In all the decades since, and all the truckloads of stuff i have tossed, i think there is only one thing i reflect back on it would have been nice to have. something small and minor, which was easily replaced. It really was a conscious process of "why are you hanging on to that" "why is it hard to burn that" "what is the point in keeping that" for every single item i own. To this day i still use that process. If it is not uplifting or pleasing when i see it, it gets tossed.

when you're in the boat, and choppy waters toss, just lay down, rest, be lulled (a counselor told me that once. she said if it feels like i'm in a little boat (my life) and the waves are choppy and my little boat is being tossed, she said you can always just lay down for a bit in the bottom of your little boat and rest. The movement and waves can be a lullaby like being rocked and lulled. i love that and have used it for many decades. It doesn't make the storms disappear or go away, there will still be storms, but there is always safe passage for me, i rest in the calm that is always available to me within any storm. i love that.)

I’ve been into chakras and auras all my life, I find them very useful.

INFP here. There is another excellent system which i like even better than Meyer Briggs because it goes more in depth. It includes a predominant layer of attributes, and then it also addresses and describes a second a layer of attributes which we can access or "grow into" or draw upon, when we are at a safe stable point in our lives and in our development, i.e. not just focused on scrambling for survival. It is in my view like the treasurse hidden within, an expansive vista and enticing view of coming attractions. It has also been for me an incentive at times to stick with the personal development. And it is encouraging that i am not ever stuck, that there is growth and advancement also. The book has a flaky title ("What Color Is Your Aura" by Barbara Bowers PhD) but it is in my experience a solid system. (get the actual book, not the online quicky distillations or quiz.) I like these systems and when my 3 sons were growing up i was quite enthusiastic and of course wanted them to fill it in also so i could see what their type is, it drove them nuts and they had no interest at all and consistently refused. a couple times in my life i was dating and it seemed to me a reasonable request and fun exercise to do on a date together, but that did not go over well at all either

Sound idea imo. Exactly.

it's prohibited. results in warning, banned, or both.

From the author's description: I think the author misunderstands the first noble truth (or maybe I do), which is that suffering exists. Or depending on the translation, reads: "The truth of suffering (dukkha)." I understand that to mean that there is a truth about the nature of suffering (and therefore exists), which the rest of the noble truths elaborates on. That's quite different from the idea that everything is suffering. From the author on the white school: From the "Christian" perspective, fear and sorrow can be released in the way suffering can be released, by realizing the nature of suffering in light of the true and transient nature of all things, thus making way for inner joy and peace. Sounds pretty Buddhist. Isn't the failure to perceive the fact that existence is pure joy... ignorance and illusion? The defining feature of the black school? In that sense, shouldn't Buddhism be considered a "white" school? Or is Christianity actually a "black" school? I guess I disagree with the categorization, and I'm not sure how it's very useful. I interpret Lao Zi, Buddha, and Christ to have been explicit that the highs and lows of joy and sorrow exist, both caused by our own inner turmoil, and that there is a way to free oneself and find equanimity by meditating on the illusory nature of the human experience from the eternal perspective.

Surely not.

i have noticed that (bold above) and am so happy to see you posting more. It is welcomed and appreciated. Looking forward to topics and discussion.

Yes Cobie we have all read your posts 😃

I totally agree with your assessment and just because not all teachings are in agreement with each other doesn't mean we can't have a respectful and lively discourse, which is important as all parties can learn from each other regardless of lineage. Having a wide perspective and trying to understand from someone else's point of view is a great skill to have and hone.

This is a very big subject which will give rise to different interpretations and points of view. I would follow your teachers advice even though I don’t totally agree with it. In the end I just express what I have learned and make no claims to authority.

It's taken me a long time to learn to move from a place of equanimity and not to take things so personally. Thanks for the advice!

@Nungali It´s ironic that you´d suggest I get in touch with my assertive warrior side because the only Bum I´ve wanted to tell off lately is...you. Casual readers likely don´t think you´ve said anything worthy of a finger, but somehow you´ve managed to get on my last nerves. I´m tempted to throw my usual policy of maintaining forum decorum out the window and really let you have it. Chances are the mods would suspend me, but would that really be so bad? Everyone is thinking of quitting the board these days anyways. Getting a suspension would be like being stopped by the cops on the highway, only instead of giving you a ticket for speeding they give you a coupon for all-you-can-eat breadsticks at the Olive Garden. Alas, I´m not going to do it. Even though I don´t think you´d be offended; no, you´d probably think it was funny, or worse, congratulate yourself for helping my mental wellbeing. Maybe someday.

I can’t speak for Bon but in the case of Buddhism it is deep in its central core and very flexible to outer social and cultural norms. That is why you have so many forms of Buddhism which seem very different outwardly but are all genuinely Buddhist. What is and is not Buddhist is defined by the Four Dharma Seals which are as follows: all compounded phenomena are impermanent. attachment of self to phenomena leads to suffering. Nirvana is perfect peace. all phenomena are pure beyond elaboration. Hope this is helpful.

I practice Vajrayana and it is 100% Bön.

when we can finally set "God" free, then "God" will be free to reach us...

I wonder if Shakti might be the highest material expression, and then logically shiva would the most material spiritual expression, so they together become a bridge between both worlds.

In some of the Tantric Saivism views (like the Krama) Shakti is viewed as the highest reality with Shiva still there but more passively in the background. There are even texts which have Shiva asking and Shakti answering the questions. Kali plays the intense part of Shakti’s role. It’s a non dual view but very different than advaita Vedanta. Everything is real, not illusion and is an expression of Shakti. Manifestation, time and death are embraced as part of Shakti’s power . Quite some intense and dynamic views in this one. First guru of the Krama sect was a woman. It’s views were important part of Abhinavaguptas classic exposition of Tantirc Saivism in the Tantraloka (around 1000 CE).

Basically another iteration of "my kung fu is better than yours." Ignore them all but embrace this philosophy: "Many paths lead to the top of the mountain."

In terms of what is Buddhist or not Buddhist there are a few things I like to keep in mind: The teachings of the Buddha weren't set down in writing until 500 years after his death, and were captured by disciples generations later. How pure are they to the intent of Gautama Buddha? We will never know. We do know that they have led many students to realization, and that should be the litmus test on which they are judged. Indian Buddhism and tantric Shiavism travelled to China and intermixed with the VERY compatible Dao, Tibetan folk/Vajrayana, and Ch'an practices creating Tibetan Buddhism, Daoism, and Zen. Teachers didn't really keep these separate as "schools" until MUCH later. We do know that they have led many students to realization, and that should be the litmus test on which they are judged. An enlightened teacher will tell you that ALL of these (and let's add Sufi poets, Patanjali, the Upanishads and MUCH MORE) point to the same things, and that their practices works from different aspects to illuminate the students. What matters is that the authors of these works and the teachers that teach them UNDERSTAND what is being said. We do know that they have led many students to realization, and that should be the litmus test on which they are judged. My opinion is that Buddhism isn't about Guatama Buddha, it is about ALL Buddhas, including the ones at your local Tibetan Buddhist center. - Food for thought: Buddhism of any kind, and in fact any set of practices, has nothing to do with enlightenment. Holding this question in your mind might even be what "enlightens" "you".

Bobby Bob please don’t!

I’m still in shock at the thought that anyone on here finds you annoying.

bold above is a bit of a flag. it is not an either-or. they are complementary and used in conjunction together. it does not replace secular psychology. it does not replace common sense physical practical benchmarks and reality checks. it does not replace recovery work (such as 12-step programs). Do not stop using any of those where they are indicated. doing "only" daoism and qigong by itself with nothing else, is NOT sufficient. it can actually make things worse for instance bringing up trauma for processing and clearing. psychology methods are essential for that. it can result in imbalance and qi deviation. there needs to be a safety net in place and reality check with regards to realistically being able to recognize any imbalance whether that is physical pain, emotional pain, mental pain, or spiritual pain. And to seek treatment and utilize resources to address those imbalances, whether that is a doctor, counseling, therapy, 12-step recovery.

Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts. It seems that remaining rooted in stillness is essential. In stillness i can flow with the energies around me without being influenced by them or becoming entangled in the illusions of the five senses. the more i learn about daoism and qigong, i can sense that this is going far beyond the healing i can get with psychological methods. i am happy to explore this

What little I know is that bazi is a natal chart used for understanding personality and compatibility, especially for determining auspicious marriage arrangements. It's a snapshot of the stars at the time one was born, represented in four pillars (hour, day, month, year). Each pillar then represents a different stage of life. The year pillar spans ages 1-16, and represents childhood, parents, and grandparents, waist and abdomen. Taking into account the placement of various auspicious and inauspicious stars in each pillar (displayed at the bottom of a chart, usually), it can be reasonably determined whether someone had a peaceful or a traumatic childhood or parental relationship. Fire Horse energy in the year pillar will appear in a person's personality, health and wealth circumstances, and relationships differently than if the Fire Horse were present in the hour pillar, which influences ages 48-60, progeny, old age, legs and feet. An experienced Bazi reader can foresee patterns in charts that indicate success, wealth, romance, death, affairs, etc during specific years and decades. It's an incredibly complex system that is difficult to learn and it's very expensive to get a reliable reading from someone, with mostly good reason. So day to day I don't use it all that much, outside of better understanding myself, loved ones, and associates. Now, it can be determined how "balanced" a chart is, which would take into account the distribution of elements, and how "weak" or "strong" a chart is because of that. So someone lacking fire in their chart may benefit from intentionally developing fire energy in their life, like enthusiasm and passion. Someone lacking wood will need additional assistance developing leadership and discipline. In that way a chart can be worked with consistently, though the focus is on the elements and not the animals. Ziwei doushu (Purple Star Astrology) uses the same birth information to create a different chart that, while also yielding information about personality and compatibility, I think is more useful in a fortune telling sense. I think TaoMeow is the expert-in-residence on both bazi and shamanism, so I'm sure she'll have a more in-depth, holistic perspective. I do like tarot (I love a good puzzle), but I only have one deck (The Chinese Tarot by Jui Guoliang), and I don't turn to it much. I much prefer the I Ching. Yes, systems like the Myers-Briggs paved the way for my eventual interest in Bazi, though I've never fully determined if I'm an INFJ or an INTJ.

I was simply offering Apech a little friendly kanchō In reality, I don't know that much about the provenance or detailed history of Bön vajrayana practices. The Bön pantheon of deities and icons are different that those of Buddhism, some dating back to the early shamanistic origins of Bön that predated the subsequent intermixing with Indian Buddhism in Tibet. Bön and Buddhism have cross-pollinated quite a bit in Tibet with each tradition having its own ideas about how all of that transpired. I'm not too concerned with all of that, just grateful that I found my way to the practices and that they've done so much for me.

Yes, I agree with this, there are so many forums online to discus and debate politics on. I see in the rules of this particular forum that discussion of politics is not encouraged. I understand why- it's not a political form. Interesting analogy hahaha.

again i am new to the area of "Bazi pillar animals" having just heard about it for the first time this morning in this thread. From experience with shamanic work and indigenous practices, I am familiar with different animals providing carrying bringing delivering, say, traits strengths abilities, attibutes. Which we can actively access for healing, information, wisdom, guidance in navigating daily life. For instance i have a few "core" animals with me all the time, and other animals may come and go depending on the situation or circumstances. The tradition i trained in, my core animals are not revealed to others (except during training with teacher or class). But i could share publicly like on a discussion board such as this, something like "oh turtle has been helping me with my situation at work" in a general sense. I am curious how the "Bazi pillar animals" function, in terms of role and our interactions with them. I get the part about "map of our personality" showing us inclinations of ourself, as astrology systems do. How are the pillar animals used in our daily life? and are some fixed, and some situational, etc. Thank you. Astrology systems have always been very opaque to me, but animals in the indigenous context are alive and meaningful for me. It is interesting to observe which systems "come alive" for me and that i I resonate strongly with. And those that are inert for me. I'm fine with that. The times I've tried to "push it" or "make it work for me" have never been successful. I tried on and off for many years using Tarot, but they just don't speak to me. Same with the Akashic records, nothing. Whereas the I-ching is like turning on the spigot in terms of enhancing intuitive flow and hearing personal commentary specific to situation at hand. i have found systems like the Myer-Briggs indicator to be helpful and useful in understanding and seeking to improve interactions with others, whether that is in personal relationships or in an organization setting. I was very impressed at one place where i was interviewing for a job, It was two grueling days of interviews which included individual interview, panel interview, assessment of personal skills through hands-on testing and demonstration, and yes full Meyer Briggs testing which was done on site, and then the results were discussed in context of the workplace, company culture, and predominant interaction styles. It was the most thorough and in depth set of interviews and testing I've ever seen at a company for job applicants. It sounds like from the discussion thus far on the Bazi pillar animals, it is also used in that way, for enhanced understanding and optimization of personal interactions and relationships.

I might have misunderstood and hence misrepresented what the site said (re.schools of Magic).

Knowing that things are empty is a great release from suffering and leads to great joy. what does ‘black school’ mean?

yes that is one of my all time favorites. the version i use is a bit more graphic, because internally for me graphic keeps me on track. if someone has mud or poop and is attempting to smear it or sling it, then it comes from them and is generated by them and it belongs to them and it is owned by them. It is theirs. It is not mine. I decline the gift they are offering.

It means they are empty ( shunya ) .

Every voice is welcome, and every voice has something to offer. Welcome.

Hiya! Long time no see. I'm still here, amazingly enough, been telling myself that enough is enough every single day but cats are creatures of habit. TDB somehow managed to hook onto my morning coffee/computer time and that's sacred (I mean, coffee is, computer not so much) so there you have it. And late in the evening -- my tiny cognac (a consolation prize since I can't have coffee before bed) -- and voila, there's this forum floating in the crystal snifter so I get a tiny portion of that too. Not every single day of course. But it explains how it happened that I'm still here. By itself the habit wouldn't hold up. It's all dopamine dynamics -- coffee is dope, a tiny cognac, ditto, and TDB is like a slice of lemon on the rim. Which explains why sometimes it tastes sour, and sometimes sweet. Hope life's been treating you kindly.

Would it have mattered? Is he the sort to take differing perspectives into consideration? Unless there is a benefit to you or someone else, why throw pearls before swine? If she was present, why didn't your sister-in-law's mother come to the defense of said topics, since it was seemingly important to her? Why should she request an expense of your energy, while not expending her own? Why engage in someone's contempt and make yourself an enemy in their eyes? Perhaps it's better to avail yourself of beneficial knowledge and be a reliable source of information when a contemptuous relative falls ill and suddenly finds themselves open to health alternatives. Then you'll be in a position to assist by sharing what you have applied and understood well in your own life, and you will be an ally, not an adversary.

Soft but not hollow. Steel needle in silk cocoon. Diligent practice.

sounds like marshmallow with a squish when I swallow soft but not hollow.

OKay sorry .... just like down over here and I will bring you some tea .....