Chapter One of the TTC

[steve]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Sinologist Paul Golding came to OD a few times, had a few convos. He was appalled by the UleG book.

 

What is OD?

 

 

 

[Cobie]

@steve the now defunct forum Original Dao.

[steve]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@steve the now defunct forum Original Dao.

 

Was that the forum that started up after the split here?

 

[Cobie]

@steve yes. I hasten to add I only went there to have convos with Wrakhout (Wandelaar here).  I do not feel I fall in the Jules exclusion category. 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 28/12/2025 at 4:03 PM, Cobie said:

… system of tetrasyllables and quatrains ..

 

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

… A whole stanza typically consists of only 16 syllables. …

 

On 28/12/2025 at 8:39 PM, ChiDragon said:

No, the traditional system of tetrasyllables and quatrains were not invented yet. …

 

詩 經 (shi1 jing1) [poetry scripture] Book of Songs (Shijing) (11th to 7th centuries BC)

“ … the Shijing style groups four syllable lines into quatrains. 

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Cobie

[Apech]

16 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

These are not written by Chinese that do not speak English. 

 

As for

and 

it’s my prerogative:

 

 

 Ok but could you go through the thought process that led you there please?

 

I am interested.

[Cobie]

@Apech I want to post about a few other things first. Then I will get back to it. I have been trying to translate ch. 1 from characters for about 7 years now, so the reply is bound to be  be short. 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

21 hours ago, Apech said:

 What is heaven … ?

 

49 minutes ago, Cobie said:

…  from Zhou times to the end of the Qing Dynasty …

Or to today? As still they exclaim 天 哪 (tian1 na3) oh my God!; good Lord!; Heavens above. 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Cobie

[steve]

32 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@steve yes. I hasten to add I only went there to have convos with Wrakhout (Wandelaar here).  I do not feel I fall in the Jules exclusion category. 

 

 

Nor do I.

 

 

[Apech]

14 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Or to today? As still they exclaim 天 哪 (tian1 na3) oh my God!; good Lord!; Heavens above. 

 

 

In Portuguese the word for sky is ceu and the word for Heaven, Ceu.  
 

Just for interest.

 

 

 

 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

54 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Or to today? As still they exclaim 天 哪 (tian1 na3) oh my God!; good Lord!; Heavens above. 

 

 

Do you learn from a member of the Tao Bums who got banned ? 

Then please teach him if you really understand what you write on this forum and that always transform into nothing but a period mark. 

Can you get the point? 

Edited 7 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[Cobie]

 

18 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Do you learn from a member of the Tao Bums who got banned ? …

No, I am not in touch with any banned members. 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

詩 經 (shi1 jing1) [poetry scripture] Book of Songs (Shijing) (11th to 7th centuries BC)

“ … the Shijing style groups four syllable lines into quatrains. 

Wasn't that after Laozte's time?

Edited 6 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

It’s quite beautiful really the quoted poem:

 

The fishhawks sing gwan-gwan 關 關 雎 鳩

On sandbars of the stream.        在 河 之 洲

Gentle maiden, pure and fair,      窈 窕 淑 女

Fit pair for a prince.                      君 子 好 逑

~

Watercress grows here and there, 參 差 荇 菜

etc

 

Shijing 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

38 minutes ago, Cobie said:

It’s quite beautiful really the quoted poem:

 

The fishhawks sing gwan-gwan 關 關 雎 鳩

On sandbars of the stream.        在 河 之 洲

Gentle maiden, pure and fair,      窈 窕 淑 女

Fit pair for a prince.                      君 子 好 逑

~
Watercress grows here and there, 參 差 荇 菜

etc

 

Shijing 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry 

As I recall, my argument was that Laotze did not use any special poetic style of writing.

Edited 6 hours ago by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

No, I am not in touch with any banned members. 

It doesn't matter actually, because the very very real meanings of these caracters cannot be extracted, understood and expressed by 識神 Shi shen since it is not the correct device to do the decoding/encoding. 

Edited 6 hours ago by DynamicEquilibrium

[Cobie]

 

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 Ok but could you go through the thought process that led you there please?

I started looking at the English translations over 50 years ago. They differ!  I wondered.

Learned a tiny bit of Chinese, found that even the translations from characters differ.  

Learned about the nature of Classical a tiny bit, and that explained a lot.
 

So I started looking at some translations from characters and saw they cheated.  Some characters given incorrect meanings/grammatical function. Or inserting/removing bits.   Or delivering a word salad.
 

I started my own translations.  I puzzle and keep making changes. All done? Then I check!  Does the chapter make a coherent and meaningful translation? And don’t cheat!  Only use  meanings that are Laozi time appropriate. And make sure to not go against the Classical grammar. 

But I am not the only conscientious translator and e.g. Henricks (my favorite) comes to a totally different translation.

I think the characters allow different translations.

 

The translation is the result of the lens one looks through (what’s inside your own mind). 
 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Cobie

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

I started looking at the English translations over 50 years ago. They differ!

E.g. now banned TDB member ‘Shadow_self’ saw a secret code to a top secret esoteric message that involved Mercury ingestion.  I wondered.
 

Learned a tiny bit of Chinese, found that even the translations from characters differ.  

Learned about the nature of Classical a tiny bit, and that explained a lot.
 

So I started looking at some translations from characters and saw they cheated.  Some characters given incorrect meanings/grammatical function. Or inserting/removing bits.   Or delivering a word salad.
 

I started my own translations.  I puzzle and keep making changes. All done? Then I check!  Does the chapter make a coherent and meaningful translation? And don’t cheat!  Only use  meanings that are Laozi time appropriate. And make sure to not go against the Classical grammar. 

 

 

But how did you get from names to morals?

[Cobie]

 

5 minutes ago, Apech said:

But how did you get from names to morals?

I had not finished yet. Done now.

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

To marvel at Chinese, the shishi poem  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExjnn_3ep4 

 Shì-t 

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

.

Edited 4 hours ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

On 12/31/2025 at 12:52 PM, steve said:

Yes, the meaning of 無为 is elusive. 

It is undefined, except in principle. 

Wu Wei is the name of the principle. We don't judge the book by its jacket. You know!

Do you know 無为 is elusive? Do you know why nobody understand it? It is because nobody in the world writes like Loatze. His style was so elusive, even nowadays, no ordinary person could understand it. Do you think that the people who translated the TTC really understand them. You think in one sentence will explain it all without any tedious annotation.

The whole concept in the TTC was all about Wu Wei, 無为. It was Laorze's philosopher advocating all along. I don't see any translator had figure it out to mention it. It was because they were too busy translating the individual characters to write a book for sale.

There are few Chapters emphasized on Wu Wei. Instead of translating by saying "do nothing," "non doing," or "non action," there were no place that anyone of the translators have explained what Wu Wei was.
 

What have you learn from them about the concept of Wu Wei? Did you learn anything from their translation about the true meaning of Wu Wei?

Edited 4 hours ago by ChiDragon

[bradley]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

Portuguese the word for sky is ceu and the word for Heaven, Ceu.  
 

Just for interest.

 

Same in finnish: taivas. I once said to my neighbor in broken finnish something like "the sky is beautiful" and he got this weird look on his face. afterwards, i figured he probably thought I was talking about heaven.

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, bradley said:

 

Same in finnish: taivas. I once said to my neighbor in broken finnish something like "the sky is beautiful" and he got this weird look on his face. afterwards, i figured he probably thought I was talking about heaven.

Yes, when we say "the sky is falling" doesn't mean "heaven is falling.

[ChiDragon]

On 12/31/2025 at 12:52 PM, steve said:

I challenge you to find a meaning or translation that everyone will agree is perfect and correct.

Meaning is in the reader, not in the text. It is in what the text makes us feel and think of based on our knowledge and conditioning.

I don't mind taken your challenge of "the mission impossible." Do you know how much I went through in a book with the Chinese interpretation of each phrase in the TTC line by line. Each line was interpreted in the native language with lots of annotation. Even the term Wu Wei had a lot of explaining to do. Do you think just by saying "do nothing,"  you will accept that it is the principle of Wu Wei. It is because you understood the English translation of "do nothing" is the principle of Wu Wei. Come on, my friend Steve.

Edited 4 hours ago by ChiDragon