forgiveness without repentance....

[old3bob]

 

We hear and see examples of people extending unconditional forgiveness for harm done to them  but sometimes without there also being the very important step of some type of repentance by the one that did them harm! 

 

Anyway I copied the excerpt below as an example about that from a much longer text...(with Bible related sayings although I think not limited to Abrahamic religions)

 

"But wait! I missed a step. Something VERY important has to happen first. Something that EVERYONE forgets when they talk about MERCY and forgiveness.

 

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and IF HE REPENT, forgive him.

 

Did he say to forgive your brother for his sins against you?  NO! He said REBUKE HIM! Judge him for his sins against you, and TELL HIM HE WAS WRONG! And IF HE REPENTS, IF HE REPENTS THEN, and ONLY THEN, FORGIVE HIM!

 

That’s what He said. IF HE REPENT is in that scripture. And it’s there for a reason. “forgiving” a brother without him first repenting to you, is tantamount to “forgiving” a shark for biting your arm off, as it swims around for a bigger piece. (not a very good example imo since a shark is not human and biting is in its nature) But hold on, you say – Christ said to forgive a brother SEVENTY TIMES SEVEN – and should we do no less? You’re absolutely right! We should do EXACTLY what Christ said and FORGIVE THEM EACH TIME! But wait… in the very next verse here it says…

 

Verse 4:  And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

 

For EACH AND EVERY ONE of those SEVEN TIMES in that day that he sinned against you, he has to turn to you and say “I REPENT!“ or, in our language ”I am sorry! I was wrong!” and THEN – ONLY then, mind you – are you to forgive him! "

 

Then again there is also the aspect or act of not burning oneself up with bitterness if repentance was never given, and thus not easy to deal with also "seventy times seven" ! 

Edited Wednesday at 11:25 AM by old3bob

[Sanity Check]

King Saul of israel attempted to hunt down and kill David twice.

 

The way David handled both instances is a better example of how to deal in forgiveness and repentance, I think.

 

After the 2nd attempt David said: "there will not be a 3rd time" and moved to another country.

 

 

[Lairg]

A friend phoned a few days ago, sounding hoarse and complaining about her throat.  I asked her if she could visualize a rope around her neck.  She could.  "Who is holding the rope?"    She could see her younger son.

 

So:

- Forgive yourself for being such a shit that he needed to hang you

- Forgive him for having had to hang you

 

A minute later her voice had become normal and she was feeling much better

 

There were more family members involved but  I shortened the account.

 

The events occurred earlier on this timeline

 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:39 PM by Lairg

[Cobie]

 

9 hours ago, old3bob said:

… IF HE REPENT, forgive him …

 

Totally right. I posted about it too, a while ago now and can’t find it back.

Was sth like forgiveness is only applicable after the perpetrator:

1) understands it was wrong

2) is sorry

3) has now acquired the skills not do it again

4) has now the mindset to never want to do it again

5) apologises sincerely

6) humbly and sincerely begs for my forgiveness

 

All else is aiding and abetting

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:56 PM by Cobie

[old3bob]

 

and perhaps some folks would comment on the last sentence, namely:

 

Then again there is also the aspect or act of not burning oneself up with bitterness if repentance was never given, and thus not easy to deal with also "seventy times seven" !   

 

which could also be lurking in other ways or degrees subconsciously for a long time...

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:03 PM by old3bob

[Cobie]

 

19 minutes ago, old3bob said:

… not burning oneself up with bitterness if repentance was never given …

I “burn up” about it in a flash, clearing all; then I give it to God and forget all about it.  And cut that person out of my life.
 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:22 PM by Cobie

[Keith108]

22 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

and perhaps some folks would comment on the last sentence, namely:

 

Then again there is also the aspect or act of not burning oneself up with bitterness if repentance was never given, and thus not easy to deal with also "seventy times seven" !   

 

which could also be lurking in other ways or degrees subconsciously for a long time...

 

This will probably make you cranky, but maybe it will make sense to someone else reading the thread. 

 

Forgiveness is a giving act. And when we give, we should forget two things: "I" and "Give".

 

_/|\_

 

[old3bob]

39 minutes ago, Keith108 said:

This will probably make you cranky, but maybe it will make sense to someone else reading the thread. 

 

Forgiveness is a giving act. And when we give, we should forget two things: "I" and "Give".

 

_/|\_

 

 

well there is that saying about "no blame" which is more or less transcendent but when there are two parties I'd say there will be an "I" with an associated "give", thus no getting around that karmic situation unless one is actually transcendent and not of just of misplaced wishful thinking of themselves as being holy or above it all.

Edited Wednesday at 11:08 PM by old3bob

[Lairg]

I have yet to find a situation where all the guilt lies on one side

 

 

[Nungali]

t gets worse ;  some newage dickwit here  on the commune wants me to forgive her  ( for harming native animals )  ..

 

while she is still doing it and intends to do it in the future  !  

 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

t gets worse ;  some newage dickwit here  on the commune wants me to forgive her  ( for harming native animals )  ..

 

while she is still doing it and intends to do it in the future  !  

 

 

bummer, what about forest service type regs on that?

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

bummer, what about forest service type regs on that?

 

Well, of course the tables  eventually turned on her  (after she insanely and abusively 'responded ' to me about it )  . 

 

It was about her cat hunting and killing wildlife  ... another breech, we have a no cats rule  ( and you have to understand the situaion regarding that in Australia to know why . 

 

Spoiler

Cats, both feral and pet, devastate Australian wildlife by killing billions of native animals annually through predation, contributing to numerous extinctions and endangering over 120 species, impacting small mammals, birds, reptiles, and spreading diseases like toxoplasmosis, with effective management crucial for biodiversity survival

 

not only that  ;  toxoplasmosis 

• Congenital (Pregnancy) Risks: If a woman is first infected during or just before pregnancy, the parasite can cross the placenta. This may lead to miscarriage, stillbirth, or serious defects in the infant, such as brain damage, blindness, hearing loss, and developmental delays.

BUT ... some say that only occurs if puss eats vermin and wildlife ... which it is doing ! 

 

and guess what she advertises herself as ... and has done a few times, that I have seen    ......   a friggen doolah ! 

 

( A doula is a trained, non-medical professional who provides continuous physical, emotional, and informational support to a person before, during, and after childbirth,) 

 

Now,  its come to light  they have caught protected fauna  ( native brush turkeys ) and had them for dinner and then ... wait for it .... posted on social media about it . That caused an outcry and reports to NPWS  ( national parks and wildlife services  ) . A Ranger came to visit , very upset , but she is currently OS .  Her bf ( equally a dick ) admitted to the eating but not the catching and killing ( that is the offence apparently ) and they will not admit to that . 

 

A member here is head of the local environment center . She has pointed out in an official letter to the commune authority ( a non-for profit  pty  ltd )  outlining her breeches of company policy and calling the directors to act on it .  But they are now a hopeless bunch  ... and used to, until recently , included this 'problem woman ' .  

[steve]

Forgiveness, for me, is a personal and private act of releasing the pain and bitterness of perceived offense. It has little to do with anyone else or their choices. It allows me to diminish my own burden, if genuine. 
 

Repentance or contrition is also a personal and private act of releasing the burden of having offended myself or others. It allows me to diminish my own burden, if genuine.

If I depend on someone else’s repentance to consider forgiveness, or vice versa, I am only harming myself, no one else, withholding the possibility of healing and growth. My sustained experience of offense and the associated stress only harms me, it does nothing to my offender.

 

Maya Angelou has some beautiful statements and poetry about the subject. The film Rubaru Roshni is a beautiful and touching film about forgiveness, highly recommended.

 

Edited 23 hours ago by steve

[steve]

Another important consideration here applies to those of us following spiritual paths like Bon, Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, and so on.

Forgiveness and repentance are associated with the sense of a finite and persistent self.

If we are able to release ourselves from the captivity of that limited idea of self, forgiveness and repentance are spontaneous and effortless. The degree to which we feel wronged, or that we have wronged, is the degree to which we remain attached to a finite sense of self. So the process of releasing and opening into the present moment, free of the baggage of expectations and judgement, naturally leads to forgiveness that is not dependent on repentance and to contrition that is not dependent on forgiveness.

 

These are all must my own personal musings and I don't suggest or expect that my approach will work for others. Just sharing where I'm at on my journey, fwiw.

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, steve said:

Another important consideration here applies to those of us following spiritual paths like Bon, Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, and so on.

Forgiveness and repentance are associated with the sense of a finite and persistent self.

If we are able to release ourselves from the captivity of that limited idea of self, forgiveness and repentance are spontaneous and effortless. The degree to which we feel wronged, or that we have wronged, is the degree to which we remain attached to a finite sense of self. So the process of releasing and opening into the present moment, free of the baggage of expectations and judgement, naturally leads to forgiveness that is not dependent on repentance and to contrition that is not dependent on forgiveness.

 

These are all must my own personal musings and I don't suggest or expect that my approach will work for others. Just sharing where I'm at on my journey, fwiw.

 

deep diplomatic thinking as usual on your part Steve....

 

then again we dont' have to over think a case where student (new or advanced) breaks the vows or precepts of an order that they belong to is not automatically forgiven by the lineage holder unless they go through some type of repentance or corrections of varying degrees depending on the offense....and if they don't do that they are simply kicked out, or maybe worse karma than that will come their way.

 

[steve]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

then again we dont' have to over think a case where student (new or advanced) breaks the vows or precepts of an order that they belong to is not automatically forgiven by the lineage holder unless they go through some type of repentance or corrections of varying degrees depending on the offense....and if they don't do that they are simply kicked out, or maybe worse karma than that will come their way.

 

 

In my mind, this is a different issue. This example is more related to rules and consequences.

The master of a lineage does not need to feel forgiveness for the precept-breaker, they need to enforce the rules in order to preserve the tradition or insure optimal training. I can forgive someone and still expect them to be appropriately punished. The master can feel genuine compassion and forgiveness and still exact punishment in order to teach a lesson. The forgiveness is in my heart, the punishment is an attempt to modify behavior, two very different things for me.

 

[S:C]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

then again we dont' have to over think a case where student (new or advanced) breaks the vows or precepts of an order that they belong to

Like what, for example? What are you thinking of? 
 

some people cannot see the consequences of their actions further than a grasshopper jumps… can’t help that - and others have worldviews, like the sage from ddj ch.5… who treats people like straw dogs. 
 

again, what Steve says, has a point: after annihilation of self, who is there to still be forgiving? and then there were none. 
and yet, the flesh or nerves might not be so in a forgiving mood, but react heavily to (perceived) trauma, real or not. strange are ways

 

What’s good punishing anyways and who is morally allowed to do that? Who is above another and ‘sees it all’ so rightly? a slippery slope, imo, as you use to say….

[S:C]

13 minutes ago, steve said:

the punishment is an attempt to modify behavior

How do you do that in a decent way?

Quite challenging, or not?

Spoiler

 

Edited 18 hours ago by S:C

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, S:C said:

Like what, for example? What are you thinking of? 
 

some people cannot see the consequences of their actions further than a grasshopper jumps… can’t help that - and others have worldviews, like the sage from ddj ch.5… who treats people like straw dogs. 
 

again, what Steve says, has a point: after annihilation of self, who is there to still be forgiving? and then there were none. 
and yet, the flesh or nerves might not be so in a forgiving mood, but react heavily to (perceived) trauma, real or not. strange are ways

 

What’s good punishing anyways and who is morally allowed to do that? Who is above another and ‘sees it all’ so rightly? a slippery slope, imo, as you use to say….

 

like every vow and precept that an order has.  Annihilation of ego is one thing but that is not  annihilation of Self or Spirit which is not on a slippery slope and may be exacting  or compassionate depending on the case...(which btw is not really comprehensible to the human mind since same is beyond it)

 

Edited 16 hours ago by old3bob

[Cobie]

 

7 minutes ago, old3bob said:

… Annihilation of ego is one thing but that is not  annihilation of Self or Spirit …

Indeed. And as long as the ego has not been cleared, one cannot know about the Spirit Self. 
 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Cobie

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

In my mind, this is a different issue. This example is more related to rules and consequences.

The master of a lineage does not need to feel forgiveness for the precept-breaker, they need to enforce the rules in order to preserve the tradition or insure optimal training. I can forgive someone and still expect them to be appropriately punished. The master can feel genuine compassion and forgiveness and still exact punishment in order to teach a lesson. The forgiveness is in my heart, the punishment is an attempt to modify behavior, two very different things for me.

 

 

for human beings and all other beings there are dharmic rules or laws and related consequences if broken...thus not so different in result.  The "kindness to the unkind" aspect you speak of hopefully kicks into the awareness of the offender quickly or at least after eons... 

[Lairg]

19 minutes ago, old3bob said:

The "kindness to the unkind" aspect you speak of hopefully kicks into the awareness of the offender

 

I was with a family yesterday and the youngest child would not finish the porridge she had requested - and was asking for other food.

 

The mother was offended and insisted the girl finish the porridge first.  The girl refused.  The mother was inclined to punish.

 

I asked the mother to look at the energy of girl's intestines.  Immediately the mother could see that the girl's intestines had had enough porridge.   So she decided to serve the girl in a smaller bowl in future.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

I wonder am I per se fit into this category for my unwanted behavior in the forum?

[Cobie]

 

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I wonder am I …

 

You’re the only Chinese speaking person active on the forum, as such you are our biggest treasure.  

 

This forum has a history of banning Chinese speakers (e.g. Awaken).
 

I think some don’t like to hear anything that interferes with their cosy Westernised interpretation of Chinese culture.

 

I think some slavishly belief what their Chinese teacher says, merely because he is Chinese; hearing another Chinese person have different views, that’s too challenging.

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Cobie

[steve]

4 hours ago, S:C said:

How do you do that in a decent way?

 

Good question, evidence suggests positive reinforcement is more effective than negative in many cases.

 

4 hours ago, S:C said:

Quite challenging, or not?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

For me, somewhat, depending on specifics. For others, very easy.