everything is perfect...?

[old3bob]

 

Some eastern ways  and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect....

 

I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being.  It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others  overcome same.   Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being.

 

Edited yesterday at 01:31 PM by old3bob

[stirling]

 

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being.  It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others  overcome same.   

 

Someone who says things like "all is perfect" but doesn't have that as their lived experience is actually creating MORE suffering for themselves and deserves compassion. 

 

In reality the "transcendent" doesn't exist. There is nothing to transcend. What one might think of the transcendent is always RIGHT HERE. 

 

When someone with this understanding says that things are "perfect", they don't mean "ideal" they mean that they can't be any other way in this moment. The causes and conditions of this moment have come together to create things as they are right now. This isn't ever a denial of suffering, it is a statement of how things are. The only reason for a person to continue speaking teachings is to benefit others, and compassion for the suffering of others is generally what drives that. 

 

Quote

Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being.

 

Parroting teachings even by someone who doesn't have the realization to go with it can be beneficial, but denying the reality of someone's experience of suffering isn't kind, it's true. Someone with "attainment" would want to be of benefit to those who are suffering.

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Some eastern ways  and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect....

 

I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being.  It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others  overcome same.   Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being.

 

 

 

It isnt just the 'transcendent ' ... its a new age way of  avoiding 'fixing the problem'   .... just get all sugary positive about things 

 

or the 'trance' one goes into from long term 'non suffering '  ( like when you live a privileged lifestyle and 'fall in love '  )    

 

 

 

[zerostao]

 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 

Someone who says things like "all is perfect" but doesn't have that as their lived experience is actually creating MORE suffering for themselves and deserves compassion. 

 

In reality the "transcendent" doesn't exist. There is nothing to transcend. What one might think of the transcendent is always RIGHT HERE. 

 

When someone with this understanding says that things are "perfect", they don't mean "ideal" they mean that they can't be any other way in this moment. The causes and conditions of this moment have come together to create things as they are right now. This isn't ever a denial of suffering, it is a statement of how things are. The only reason for a person to continue speaking teachings is to benefit others, and compassion for the suffering of others is generally what drives that. 

 

 

Parroting teachings even by someone who doesn't have the realization to go with it can be beneficial, but denying the reality of someone's experience of suffering isn't kind, it's true. Someone with "attainment" would want to be of benefit to those who are suffering.

 

That of course is your take Stirling,  (thus a form of or general meaning per much of Buddhism?)  Other non-Buddhist schools recognize the transcendent as being transcendent to (for instance not bound by) although at the same time also being part of or the manifest.

 

("goes far" and a "return" but also never really left, to paraphrase some sayings in Taoism)

 

Edited 22 hours ago by old3bob

[Sanity Check]

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Some eastern ways  and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect....

 

I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being. 

 

 

 

 

Isn't transcendent freedom only another term for making good choices in life.

 

Some work hard to make bad decisions and how can those people ever be helped if they never chose to help themselves.

[stirling]

20 minutes ago, old3bob said:

That of course is your take Stirling,  (thus a form of or general meaning per much of Buddhism?) 

 

Well, yes, just as your post is your "take", although I would proffer the caveat - not my "take", but actually my experience. Which schools, specifically, are you talking about? 

 

20 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Other non-Buddhist schools recognize the transcendent as being transcendent to (for instance not bound by) although at the same time also being part of or the manifest.

 

 

Isn't that the same as what I suggested in my post:

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

What one might think of the transcendent is always RIGHT HERE.

 

20 minutes ago, old3bob said:

("goes far" and a "return" but also never really left, to paraphrase some sayings in Taoism)

 

...also the same, yes? The metaphor of the Gateless Gate comes to mind. 

[old3bob]

15 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

 

Isn't transcendent freedom only another term for making good choices in life.

 

Some work hard to make bad decisions and how can those people ever be helped if they never chose to help themselves.

 

well I'm no expert but I'd add free of karma and any mental or emotional form of conditioning...

[stirling]

17 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Isn't transcendent freedom only another term for making good choices in life.

 

Some work hard to make bad decisions and how can those people ever be helped if they never chose to help themselves.

 

Not at all. It is the realization that you have had a mistaken view of how the world, and that insight liberates "you". It is MUCH larger understanding that transforms the reality you thought you knew.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

I'd add free of karma and any mental or emotional form of conditioning.

 

Using any substance from within this solar system (e.g.  mental and emotional substances) necessarily engages the user in solar systemic karma - and of course mental and emotional processes tend to flow in the pre-existing patterns of that substance.

 

The usual way out is to lift the operation of the light-body/aura beyond the most contaminated planes

 

Others may assist the out-working of the karma through their lives and relationships

 

 

Many years ago I visited Clava Cairns at just the right time for the sun to shine exactly along the passageways to what was the dark center of each now collapsed cairn.  So I stood in the centers to feel the energy flows.

 

For some reason in the third cairn I tried to recite an important spiritual verse that I knew very well.  I found I made mistakes in every line.  I tried at another cairn and had the same problem.

 

I visited the cairns a year later, again accidentally when the sun lined up with the passages.  This time there was no problem in reciting the verse perfectly.

 

I did some tests and it seemed to me that in my first visit the mental space around the cairns had never felt that spiritual intent  before and it was hard work battering the mental substance into shape.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clava_cairn

Edited 20 hours ago by Lairg

[old3bob]

13 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Well, yes, just as your post is your "take", although I would proffer the caveat - not my "take", but actually my experience. Which schools, specifically, are you talking about? 

 

Isn't that the same as what I suggested in my post:

 

...also the same, yes? The metaphor of the Gateless Gate comes to mind. 

 

 not the same when or if written off as or bound in illusion.  

[Keith108]

On 12/11/2025 at 8:28 AM, old3bob said:

 

Some eastern ways  and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect....

 

I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being.  It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others  overcome same.   Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being.

 

 

Cherry picking teaching words will lead to misunderstandings like this.

 

The context of that type of talk is that before identification with a "self" there is no good or bad, right or wrong, etc. That is the basic teaching of shunyata. If someone has digested that teaching, then "everything is perfect". Actually, there is another saying that says "each thing is complete", which I think works a little better.

 

As Stirling said, this is an experiential view, not a philosophical one. It takes a degree of openness, and also a willingness to put down our cherished beliefs, ideas, and opinions, to digest this. Fixed attitudes just solidify the "I, me, mine" viewpoint, and dukkha (suffering) rolls on both for ourselves and those we come in contact with. 

 

No one in their right mind would say the world is perfect from a mundane point of view. In fact, in terms of human behavior, it's the exact opposite. That's samsara. Now we find ourselves back in "two truths" territory, as we discussed in a different thread. With the wisdom of waking up to our true self, we can help ourselves and others. 

 

Interestingly, there is a Christian parallel to this in the story of Adam and Eve. They fall from heaven after eating an apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Maybe someone more versed in biblical Christianity can correct me on that, or provide some context. I just found it interesting that the fall from heaven was caused by a tree named after dualistic thinking.  

 

I am sure it wouldn't be too hard to pull out a few quotes from the DDJ to point in the direction what "everything is perfect" is talking about, as well.

 

Of course, without having the context of the words, "everything is perfect" can be a form of spiritual bypassing. Sort of like "God has a plan". 

 

That's my two cents, anyway.  

Edited 6 hours ago by Keith108

[steve]

The dzogchen path that I follow is one that is guilty of using such terminology.

Dzogchen literally means great (chen) perfection (dzog).

As Keith suggests, to the Western ear a more palatable and equally valid translation would be great completion.

In this context, perfect or complete does not imply a value judgement from the human perspective.

It is more a recognition of the spontaneous presence of all enlightened qualities in our natural mind, always present and awaiting discovery. It suggests that we don't need to add or subtract anything or change anything to have access to unlimited potential for enlightened activity. We simply need to be open and unimpeded by our tendency to "collapse the wave function" (to borrow some quantum mechanics language); by our tendency to over-identify with a limited sense of "me" that excludes so many possibilities. For me this has strong parallels in Daoism, a few examples being concepts like ziran and wuwei, as well as the idea that Heaven, Earth, and the sage not being humane/benevolent but regarding people as straw dogs. 

 

In attending many dzogchen retreats over the past decade or so, this is one of the areas that causes the most consternation and frustration among developing practitioners. Of course there are many terrible things in the world, people suffer greatly and this is absolutely acknowledged in dzogchen and serves as the very basis and purpose for engaging in practice - namely, to liberate one's own being in order to benefit others. From the perspective of the samsaric being, the world can be a very tough, unforgiving, and dangerous place. From the absolute perspective, everything that arises is simply a function of the workings of karma and dependent origination. There is a sense of perfection or completeness in terms of the fact that if anything is changed, everything else changes. Nothing can be added or taken away or things would not be as they are. In this sense the whole is perfect and complete.

 

I wonder if there is a parallel in Hindu systems relative to the inherent perfection/completeness of Brahman relative to the incompleteness and imperfection of maya... or something like that?

 

Edited 5 hours ago by steve

[forestofclarity]

Here is ho Mingyur Rinpoche puts it: 

 

Quote

Your essence, and the essence of every living creature, is pure, whole, and complete. There’s nothing missing, and that’s why we call it the Great Perfection. YOU are the Great Perfection. Don’t forget that. Dzogchen is talking about you. This Great Perfection is you right now, right here in this moment, not some fully developed you after you do a lot more meditation.

 

What is perfect is the essence of every sentient being. 

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

I wonder if there is a parallel in Hindu systems relative to the inherent perfection/completeness of Brahman relative to the incompleteness and imperfection of the atman... or something like that?

 

The jiva is the relative deluded individual. 

 

The summation is usually "Brahma satyam, jagan mithya, jivo brahmaiva naparah."

 

Brahman is real, the world is illusory, the essence of the jiva is the essence of Brahman. 

 

A more radical Vedantin along the lines of Gaudapada might say there is no issue because suffering is illusory, like a dream. The true self is safe and sound as always, so the solution is not to improve the dream, but to wake up the dreamer. 

 

[old3bob]

36 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Here is ho Mingyur Rinpoche puts it: 

 

 

What is perfect is the essence of every sentient being. 

 

 

The jiva is the relative deluded individual. 

 

The summation is usually "Brahma satyam, jagan mithya, jivo brahmaiva naparah."

 

Brahman is real, the world is illusory, the essence of the jiva is the essence of Brahman. 

 

A more radical Vedantin along the lines of Gaudapada might say there is no issue because suffering is illusory, like a dream. The true self is safe and sound as always, so the solution is not to improve the dream, but to wake up the dreamer. 

 

 

and of course Advaita Vedanta is only one of the many schools that range from A-Z in Hinduism (so to speak) and thus does  represent all of Hinduism as some seem to take for granted.

 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Keith108 said:

 

Cherry picking teaching words will lead to misunderstandings like this.

 

The context of that type of talk is that before identification with a "self" there is no good or bad, right or wrong, etc. That is the basic teaching of shunyata. If someone has digested that teaching, then "everything is perfect". Actually, there is another saying that says "each thing is complete", which I think works a little better.

 

As Stirling said, this is an experiential view, not a philosophical one. It takes a degree of openness, and also a willingness to put down our cherished beliefs, ideas, and opinions, to digest this. Fixed attitudes just solidify the "I, me, mine" viewpoint, and dukkha (suffering) rolls on both for ourselves and those we come in contact with. 

 

No one in their right mind would say the world is perfect from a mundane point of view. In fact, in terms of human behavior, it's the exact opposite. That's samsara. Now we find ourselves back in "two truths" territory, as we discussed in a different thread. With the wisdom of waking up to our true self, we can help ourselves and others. 

 

Interestingly, there is a Christian parallel to this in the story of Adam and Eve. They fall from heaven after eating an apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Maybe someone more versed in biblical Christianity can correct me on that, or provide some context. I just found it interesting that the fall from heaven was caused by a tree named after dualistic thinking.  

 

I am sure it wouldn't be too hard to pull out a few quotes from the DDJ to point in the direction what "everything is perfect" is talking about, as well.

 

Of course, without having the context of the words, "everything is perfect" can be a form of spiritual bypassing. Sort of like "God has a plan". 

 

That's my two cents, anyway.  

 

think about your first sentence above Keith....Did not the historic Buddha teach to question things which you seem to be demeaning by calling it cherry picking?  Btw did not that Buddha also do his share or forms of cherry picking along the way which almost killed him?

 

 

[Keith108]

1 minute ago, old3bob said:

 

think about your first sentence above Keith....Did not the historic Buddha teach to question things which you seem to be demeaning by calling it cherry picking?  Btw did not that Buddha also do his share or forms of cherry picking along the way which almost killed him?

 

 

That's a projection. There was no demeaning intent. By "cherry picking" I meant taking a short teaching out of a much greater context. 

 

I honestly don't what the second half of the statement is referring to. 

[stirling]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

 not the same when or if written off as or bound in illusion.  

 

Can you be a little more verbose, and precise?

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Keith108 said:

That's a projection. There was no demeaning intent. By "cherry picking" I meant taking a short teaching out of a much greater context. 

 

I honestly don't what the second half of the statement is referring to. 

 

"cherry picking" is not exactly a diplomatic term as generally used in conversation, if used for picking a motor out of car it has a more precise in meaning.   And to me your explanation leaves lots of room for further interpretation. 

 

Btw, I'd say most Buddhists know of the story in their doctrine of how the historic Buddha almost killed himself through extreme methods that he picked which If I remember correctly included near starvation as being one of them...

 

[old3bob]

39 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Can you be a little more verbose, and precise?

 

39 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Can you be a little more verbose, and precise?

 

not needed since you come off as seemingly knowing everything from A-Z...

Edited 1 hour ago by old3bob

[Cobie]

 

6 hours ago, Keith108 said:

… Adam and Eve. They fall from heaven after eating an apple from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil …

For Roman Catholics, the moral law (what is good or evil) has been  set by God. This story is about obedience to God.

 

Quote

… quotes from the DDJ to point in the direction what "everything is perfect" is …

the DDJ sees imperfection, e.g. start ch. 5: 

天 地 不 仁 之 以       (tian1 di4 bu4 ren2 zhi1 yi3 )                      Nature is inhumane, it uses 

萬 物 為 芻 狗 也       (wan4 wu4 wei2 chu2 gou3 ye3 )              all living creatures as disposables. 

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Cobie

[Keith108]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

"cherry picking" is not exactly a diplomatic term as generally used in conversation, if used for picking a motor out of car it has a more precise in meaning.   And to me your explanation leaves lots of room for further interpretation. 

 

Btw, I'd say most Buddhists know of the story in their doctrine of how the historic Buddha almost killed himself through extreme methods that he picked which If I remember correctly included near starvation as being one of them...

 

Ah well, the thread has been contributed to. My work here is finished. 

[Cobie]

.

Edited 4 minutes ago by Cobie