old3bob Posted 11 hours ago (edited) Some eastern ways and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect.... I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being. It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others overcome same. Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being. Edited 11 hours ago by old3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted 4 hours ago 6 hours ago, old3bob said: I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being. It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others overcome same. Someone who says things like "all is perfect" but doesn't have that as their lived experience is actually creating MORE suffering for themselves and deserves compassion. In reality the "transcendent" doesn't exist. There is nothing to transcend. What one might think of the transcendent is always RIGHT HERE. When someone with this understanding says that things are "perfect", they don't mean "ideal" they mean that they can't be any other way in this moment. The causes and conditions of this moment have come together to create things as they are right now. This isn't ever a denial of suffering, it is a statement of how things are. The only reason for a person to continue speaking teachings is to benefit others, and compassion for the suffering of others is generally what drives that. Quote Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being. Parroting teachings even by someone who doesn't have the realization to go with it can be beneficial, but denying the reality of someone's experience of suffering isn't kind, it's true. Someone with "attainment" would want to be of benefit to those who are suffering. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted 2 hours ago 9 hours ago, old3bob said: Some eastern ways and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect.... I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being. It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others overcome same. Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being. It isnt just the 'transcendent ' ... its a new age way of avoiding 'fixing the problem' .... just get all sugary positive about things or the 'trance' one goes into from long term 'non suffering ' ( like when you live a privileged lifestyle and 'fall in love ' ) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted 1 hour ago (edited) 3 hours ago, stirling said: Someone who says things like "all is perfect" but doesn't have that as their lived experience is actually creating MORE suffering for themselves and deserves compassion. In reality the "transcendent" doesn't exist. There is nothing to transcend. What one might think of the transcendent is always RIGHT HERE. When someone with this understanding says that things are "perfect", they don't mean "ideal" they mean that they can't be any other way in this moment. The causes and conditions of this moment have come together to create things as they are right now. This isn't ever a denial of suffering, it is a statement of how things are. The only reason for a person to continue speaking teachings is to benefit others, and compassion for the suffering of others is generally what drives that. Parroting teachings even by someone who doesn't have the realization to go with it can be beneficial, but denying the reality of someone's experience of suffering isn't kind, it's true. Someone with "attainment" would want to be of benefit to those who are suffering. That of course is your take Stirling, (thus a form of or general meaning per much of Buddhism?) Other non-Buddhist schools recognize the transcendent as being transcendent to (for instance not bound by) although at the same time also being part of or the manifest. ("goes far" and a "return" but also never really left, to paraphrase some sayings in Taoism) Edited 1 hour ago by old3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted 1 hour ago 10 hours ago, old3bob said: Some eastern ways and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect.... I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being. Isn't transcendent freedom only another term for making good choices in life. Some work hard to make bad decisions and how can those people ever be helped if they never chose to help themselves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted 50 minutes ago 20 minutes ago, old3bob said: That of course is your take Stirling, (thus a form of or general meaning per much of Buddhism?) Well, yes, just as your post is your "take", although I would proffer the caveat - not my "take", but actually my experience. Which schools, specifically, are you talking about? 20 minutes ago, old3bob said: Other non-Buddhist schools recognize the transcendent as being transcendent to (for instance not bound by) although at the same time also being part of or the manifest. Isn't that the same as what I suggested in my post: 3 hours ago, stirling said: What one might think of the transcendent is always RIGHT HERE. 20 minutes ago, old3bob said: ("goes far" and a "return" but also never really left, to paraphrase some sayings in Taoism) ...also the same, yes? The metaphor of the Gateless Gate comes to mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted 50 minutes ago 15 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: Isn't transcendent freedom only another term for making good choices in life. Some work hard to make bad decisions and how can those people ever be helped if they never chose to help themselves. well I'm no expert but I'd add free of karma and any mental or emotional form of conditioning... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted 47 minutes ago 17 minutes ago, Sanity Check said: Isn't transcendent freedom only another term for making good choices in life. Some work hard to make bad decisions and how can those people ever be helped if they never chose to help themselves. Not at all. It is the realization that you have had a mistaken view of how the world, and that insight liberates "you". It is MUCH larger understanding that transforms the reality you thought you knew. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
