What do you think about Neidan(內丹)?

[MIchael80]

20 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

CD is not a troll, he is very genuine always. And his views are based on a lifetime of serious study and practice.  

All this agitation about a different opinion, expressed politely - should make you think about your own prejudices.

 

 

 

  If this was the case, it would be of the utmost importance to study CD's view - forewarned is forearmed.   

 

 

 

I second that. 

 

 

Why do you think that everyone who has experience in a daoist neidan lineage disagrees with Chidragon? 

Everyone telling him that and still he does not listen at all.

As if all these genuine practicioners know nothing. 

 

This has nothing to do with predjudice..... but everything he says is so many lightyears away from even basic neidan understanding it is almost impossible to think he is not trolling. 

 

It would be like if i say i know how to bake a cake and talk about how it is made of sand and dirt .... and baker would come and say "no this is completely wrong" but i would accuse them to be the baker police and they being full of predjudice.

[Cobie]

 

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

... I am so lonely here. I just want to find someone that I can talk to. ... share some common knowledge. 

 

When one gets to an advanced level, it gets lonely at the top.  

 

 

Edited December 24 by Cobie

[S:C]

1 hour ago, S:C said:

doing (...) a favor

to someone doesn't mean one is being payed for it. 

so no accusations in that direction on my behalf.

 

 

anyways, they are everywhere.  

 

Quote

All this agitation about a different opinion

If you observe closely, I didn't criticize his opinion, but his intention in the OP. 

 

Quote

 

 There was no physical proof. It is the principle that matters. If you think you understand it, then, practice it the way you think it is. If it works for you, congratulation! 
 

I am only a spectator trying to understand what the principle was. I might not believe it. At least, I am trying to figure out what it is saying with the best of my knowledge in my disturbed and distorted mind.   

He endorses the student while explaining that he isn't sure about the quality of the knowledge shared, while his mind is yet unclear about it. 

 

No trouble with expressing opinions, perceptions or values.

But teaching lifestyle ethics - to those in need - while not being sure about the quality - seems to me the equivalent to a kid at the gas station playing with a fire lighter near to the gasoline puddle. But that is just my prejudiced opinion, and yeah... sharing opinion and "teaching" might be quite close to each other... - it differs, when one claims 'authority' or tries to change behavior of others, while profiting thereof, I'd say.

 

In my culture, every teacher who confesses he is exploring the concept in the moment just while and when he is teaching on life subjects, while he had no endorsement to teach in that area and no depths of source and security in the tradition, clarity and proven proficiency, -  would (yet) not be called a teacher. 

But even my culture changes.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

words are vases. who am I to teach?  





BUT maybe we can get back to topic...

 

 

the cauldron

the bellows

the force field

the inner fields

the entrance 

the nowayout

... 

Edited December 24 by S:C

[Master Logray]

17 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Why do you think that everyone who has experience in a daoist neidan lineage disagrees with Chidragon? 

Everyone telling him that and still he does not listen at all.

As if all these genuine practicioners know nothing. 

 

This has nothing to do with predjudice..... but everything he says is so many lightyears away from even basic neidan understanding it is almost impossible to think he is not trolling. 

 

It would be like if i say i know how to bake a cake and talk about how it is made of sand and dirt .... and baker would come and say "no this is completely wrong" but i would accuse them to be the baker police and they being full of predjudice.

 

 

I would say it is normal to argue or take on each other.   But if one is prolific writer and there are so many holes in the writings, it is very hard for the others.   Either they have to argue on every point on every posting, which means all out war everyday, and possible accusation of being discriminate or prejudiced, or they just let it go against their understandings or even conscience?  

 

[S:C]

Meanwhile I think Chi Dragon might actually be teaching.... but teaching us a different lesson than he is claiming to be....

 

 

Words are vases?

 

Did Wittgenstein bring you here, Chi Dragon? Trying to do another Rectification of names  ?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

6 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

How to know that he or anyone else did recieve high quality family education or not ? From spiritual powers ? 

Well, we could ask

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

 

When one gets to an advanced level, it gets lonely at the top.  

 

 

I can’t tell who is trolling and who isn’t anymore 

[damdao]

20 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 

P.S. 
The cultivation of  性 and 命 is not pertaining the Neidan. The cultivation was intended to be a better person as 真人. 真人 should be known as a "True man," other than a "real man" as commonly translated. The idea for being a True man is to have a good educated mind with a healthy body. BTW They don't called this as 性命雙修 for nothing you know.
 

Why do you kept spreading false information? On purpose or simply you don't want to study real sources and with real people?

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Well, we could ask

Exactly. 

By definition, traditional knowlege transmission won't happen outside real human relationships between one generation and the next. 

What i don't understand is why knowlege about 性 and 命 should be exclusive to Neidan ?

Taoism is to flexible and versatile for that.

 

Edited December 24 by DynamicEquilibrium

[Antares]

28 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

why knowlege about 性 and 命 should be exclusive to Neidan ?

Taoism is to flexible and versatile for that.

These 2 are also in neigong. But not all neigong systems are good enough. Where else should it be?

As for how to know if it is correct - read school/sect texts and check how it correlates with your practice

If it does not - you do smth else but not nei...

[Master Logray]

8 minutes ago, Antares said:

These 2 are also in neigong. But not all neigong systems are good enough. Where else should it be?

As for how to know if it is correct - read school/sect texts and check how it correlates with your practice

If it does not - you do smth else but not nei...

 

Another view is the proportion.   Neidan may need 50/50 Xing/Ming overall.  Neigong/Qigong 30/70.   And different stages need different proportions too.

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

I can’t tell who is trolling and who isn’t anymore 

 

When you hear advance level of something.  It could be bad news.   

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

45 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Exactly. 

By definition, traditional knowlege transmission won't happen outside real human relationships between one generation and the next. 

What i don't understand is why knowlege about 性 and 命 should be exclusive to Neidan ?

Taoism is to flexible and versatile for that.

 

People can use whatever words and say whatever they want outside of neidan, but if you are talking about neidan, use the correct terminology and meanings

[forestofclarity]

20 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Why do you ask this question Forest of clarity ? 

 

It's a good way to gauge where people are coming from. Also, I'm curious about your opinion because I have feeling you may have some good information. 

 

20 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

He gets nothing wrong about this particular version of Taoist practice, he can explain it very detaily and accurately, what he can't do, is to tell you if this version is good for you or not.

 

That's true, but I would think this applies broadly. 

 

4 hours ago, S:C said:

Do you realize you are doing the agitation and propaganda section of any modern (e.g. anti-cultural) and authoritarian party (think: CPC / CCP e.g.) a favor with spreading even more confusion and distortions about and thereby further destroying wisdom of the old? Word Wizards, are you doing any good?!

 

Neidan practitioners have sort of done it themselves with the secrets and false information. And to some extent, I suppose sorting things out is a part of the process. But I think the better way to combat misinformation is to provide better public information. Whatever one thinks of ChiDragon's posts, they have at least stimulated some discussion.

 

[Antares]

2 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Another view is the proportion.   Neidan may need 50/50 Xing/Ming overall.

It depends on sect but from what i know - In the West, northern schools have become widespread, where the main emphasis is on Xing, and Ming, if cultivated at all, is done so to a lesser extent in the initial stages of practice. Ideally, there should be a precise 50/50 balance, otherwise there is a significant risk of deviations. In very rare systems, such a correct ratio of cultivation methods for Xing and Ming exists

[DynamicEquilibrium]

20 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

People can use whatever words and say whatever they want outside of neidan, but if you are talking about neidan, use the correct terminology and meanings

Who or what fixed the correct terminology and meanings originally ? 

[stirling]

9 hours ago, Antares said:

I have read on this forum that some people believe it's possible to achieve 'transmission of knowledge' directly from the Dao and that a teacher is not necessary.

 

Where else would it come from? True knowledge of the Dao comes from teachings that humans have written? This happens all of the time in Buddhism, another non-dual tradition - there is even a name for it:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyekabuddhayāna

 

I have actually met one. They are real... and why wouldn't they be, given the nature of the Dao/Enlightenment?

 

I Agree that a realized teacher can be very useful, but completely understanding the Dao isn't a concept that a teacher can pass on, only point to. It isn't an intellectual concept that a person "owns". A realized teacher can point it out anywhere, at any time. Any teacher that pushes the idea that they are somehow the gatekeeper of the Dao isn't fully realized and is greatly deluded. 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

These 2 are also in neigong. But not all neigong systems are good enough. Where else should it be?

As for how to know if it is correct - read school/sect texts and check how it correlates with your practice

If it does not - you do smth else but not nei...

性 and 命 belong to 道 category. 

No matter what we do, even discussing here, we are applying them. 

What one will learn from a teacher is how to apply them (for whom purposes is another problem), so a criteria could be wether one as recieved own practice formula already or not. 

 

Edited December 24 by DynamicEquilibrium

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

 

It's a good way to gauge where people are coming from. Also, I'm curious about your opinion because I have feeling you may have some good information.

 

Thank you so much for your honesty 🌳

 

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

That's true, but I would think this applies broadly. 

 

Very broadly even. 

[Antares]

11 minutes ago, stirling said:

I have actually met one.

That one has/had a teacher

12 minutes ago, stirling said:

True knowledge of the Dao comes from teachings that humans have written? 

 

The "Nine Immortals" typically refers to

legendary figures in Chinese lore, often associated with embodying virtues like love, courage, compassion, and knowledge, serving powerful deities or emperors, or appearing in fantasy settings as powerful cultivators in sects like the Nine Immortals Peak Sect or Nine Immortals Palace, distinct from the more famous Eight Immortals but representing divine agents or aspirational beings

[Cobie]

 

4 hours ago, S:C said:

… Rectification of names  ?

 

‘names’ is a mistranslation. 正名 (zheng4 ming2) rectification of morals

(名 had various meanings at the time, including ‘morals’)

 

 

Edited December 24 by Cobie

[stirling]

6 minutes ago, Antares said:

That one has/had a teacher

 

Absolutely... the DAO! There IS only one "teacher". 

 

6 minutes ago, Antares said:

The "Nine Immortals" typically refers to

legendary figures in Chinese lore, often associated with embodying virtues like love, courage, compassion, and knowledge, serving powerful deities or emperors, or appearing in fantasy settings as powerful cultivators in sects like the Nine Immortals Peak Sect or Nine Immortals Palace, distinct from the more famous Eight Immortals but representing divine agents or aspirational beings

 

Is this a belief or experience? If the figures are "legendary", are from "Chinese lore", are "associated with embodying" conceptual virtues, serve "deities or emperors" you can't meet, or appear in "fantasy settings" they may POINT to constructed aspects of the Dao, but are simply conceptual constructs, NOT the Dao. 

 

The Dao, or "non-duality" is a much deeper reality than any pantheon of "immortals", gods and goddesses that can be attributed conceptual constructs. The Dao HAS no qualities, no embodiment, and is not truly represented by any idea or icon. Who or what becomes "immortal"? The Dao is the only "immortal" thing, but that doesn't mean what you might think it means. 

 

 

It is entirely possible to be shown the Dao, or find it yourself in stillness. It is omnipresent. No-one and no-thing else is required.

[Antares]

5 minutes ago, stirling said:

It is entirely possible to be shown the Dao, or find it yourself in stillness. It is omnipresent. No-one and no-thing else is required.

I just disagree. Not going to argue with you. If you can invent your own Ming methods then partially I would agree with  you. But I don't know anyone who has invented it. Oh, sorry, my fault, we have one here. Anyone one else?

Even CD used taiji practice that was not invented by him

Edited December 24 by Antares

[damdao]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

‘names’ is a mistranslation. 正名 (zheng4 ming2) rectification of morals

(名 had various meanings at the time, including ‘morals’)

 

 

Generally speaking, it refers to the right name attributed to the right thing; it is a Confucian concept. Rectifying names, measures, and the writing system. Of course, rectifying names implies rectifying the hierarchical order of society, and from that come the right morals or the proper observation of rites.

[Cobie]

 

25 minutes ago, stirling said:

… the DAO! There IS only one "teacher" … It is entirely possible to be shown the Dao, or find it yourself in stillness. It is omnipresent. No-one and no-thing else is required.

I second that. 
 

 

Edited December 24 by Cobie