What do you think about Neidan(內丹)?

[ChiDragon]

On 12/22/2025 at 9:00 AM, Master Logray said:

 

I suggest you read more.   All schools are so different.  e.g. not all use LDT.

 

 

No offense. Any thing I had read relating to breathing was always used the term LDT. If a school doesn't use the term at all, I would question what are they teaching to the students. 

Edited Friday at 08:24 AM by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

On 22/12/2025 at 6:00 PM, Master Logray said:

 

I suggest you read more.   All schools are so different.  e.g. not all use LDT.

 

In the same way not all use breathing in their method. 

[Apech]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Your familiarity with her oeuvre is... enlightening!

But not Toxic I hope.

[29Gathering]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I knew this bait was coming for an attack. 

Saying Daodejing is older than 1,000 years feel like an attack on you? I think you would know the age of Daodejing, you have 9000+ posts on a site where Daoism is discussed. This is most basic information. If you weren't throwing baits, then I don't know what to tell you.

[ChiDragon]

6 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

The bit i caught was a zen practitioner saying that the Nei... errr, the dharma was even to be found in a stinking noodle,

（《道德经》）的第八章。
描述是：
“上善若水。水善利万物而不争，处众人之所恶，故几于道。”

[29Gathering]

8 hours ago, stirling said:

An example: Your statement has brought to mind the thought that the Dao de Jings age might somehow impact its validity, and if that is somehow an attachment for me. I already gnow that is hilarious nonsense, so I smile. _/\_

I agree that age does not impact validity, but if someone is trying to teach people that Laozi made up the Dao(like a scam) 1,000 years ago, throwing garbage on the whole thing is it really worth smiling about?

 

Ok, unless someone responds to me directly I'm out.

Edited Friday at 07:07 AM by 29Gathering

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, 29Gathering said:

I agree that age does not impact validity, but if someone is trying to teach people that Laozi made up the Dao(like a scam) 1,000 years ago, throwing garbage on the whole thing is it really worth smiling about?

 

Ok, unless someone responds to me directly I'm out.

The Guodian version found in a tomb dates to the late 4th century BC -so maybe 2300 years ago.  Even the Wang Bi version is dated to 3rd century AD ( about 1700 years ago) so it is impossible for it to be only 1000 years old.

 

It is easy to look these things up.

 

 

 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

24 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

（《道德经》）的第八章。
描述是：
“上善若水。水善利万物而不争，处众人之所恶，故几于道。”

Lower and lower to the lowest places full of humor infected bums. 

[stirling]

51 minutes ago, 29Gathering said:

I agree that age does not impact validity, but if someone is trying to teach people that Laozi made up the Dao(like a scam) 1,000 years ago, throwing garbage on the whole thing is it really worth smiling about?

 

Ok, unless someone responds to me directly I'm out.

 

Dharma is made all of the time. I know a number of teachers I interact with that can supply you dharma as good (or better) than any sutra, and DO frequently. Why? Because they understand. Dharma is created moment to moment. You can't escape dharma. It's literally everywhere if you have had the good fortune to have someone point it out. 

 

The classic dharma (like the Dao De Jing) gets taught over and over again because realized teachers recognize the skillfulness of those teachings. Scam? The Dao De Jing was very obviously authored by someone with complete understanding, to those that also have it.

 

I am responding to you directly. _/\_

[Antares]

18 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Please, can you confirm or infirm that 伍柳派 emphasize  炼已  as a 'channel' leading to 築基 ?

 

Not sure what you mean by "channel" in this context. The main method of 炼已 there is

https://all-dao.com/jiuyangshengong.html

Also there are few more additional dynamic heart - mind purification methods and some static ones. One of them works on yuan jing restoration. What I can say there is NO any breath methods and no much stress on seated one in the beginning. 

Also there are southern and northern methods in  伍柳派. I only tried to practice northern one for short period of time

 I did not practice it much and was not initiated into this school so can't say much about it

Edited Friday at 12:23 PM by Antares

[Master Logray]

3 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

In the same way not all use breathing in their method. 

 

Quite true, some schools view manipulation of breathing as lethal.   It is why wide reading is essential.   A single danitan, a single breathing method is not true.

[ChiDragon]

6 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

In the same way not all use breathing in their method. 

You didn't mean that, I hope! 你不是在开玩笑吧？

Edited Friday at 12:57 PM by ChiDragon

[Apech]

@ChiDragon as promised my understanding:

 

OK I will outline how I understand qigong and Neidan.

 

The first thing to say is that it is not my specialist subject but I did study under a Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong who was living in England at that time, about thirty years ago. He taught me a qigong form called 'Nine Rings' and a Neidan mediation called Iron Mountain Lineage to a level where he said I could teach them to others. About 5/6 years ago when I was considering returning to Daoism as a main practice I studied English translations of a number of texts, such as Wang Mu and the Cantong qi, making detailed notes and so on. So I have some slight experience of the subject.

 

The first thing to say is that qigong and Neidan are different. Qigong, which I would call skills in working with qi (in the body) has the goal of wellbeing, that is health and happiness. While Neidan has the goal of making the dan and from that immortality (although I don't think this means necessarily through a physical vehicle).

 

Qigong involves three things. First developing 'sung' with the body. In other words mostly through standing postures you learn to relax the body round its frame such that it becomes a kind of absorbant container for qi. This is a distinct feeling which arises after long standing or sitting postures. Then the regulation of the breath, so it is smoothly in and out and continuous, and thirdly the focussed resting of your attention on the body undistracted by thoughts and so on. When this happens (which takes varying amounts of time depending on the person) you begin to become aware of qi on your body. Then the breathing and movement exercises operate through the three – body movement, breath and attention – all together which circulate and move qi in the body (and beyond as you can also learn to project qi). As to what qi is, well this is difficult to say, in some ways it is an effect and in others it is an agent of change. Calling it energy is not wrong but it's not right either. It is best left as being qi based on experiencing it, not speculating about it.

 

Neigong is just as qigong but without so much of the physical movement.

 

The goal of these two is health and happiness or wellbeing as I would put it.

 

Neidan is different. The usual version of where this came from is that it evolved from WeiDan, that is alchemy using substances to make pills or medicines for health and immortality. But I think it is more likely that the whole project of Dan production began as both inner and outer together and then split into two schools, one dealing with outer substances and the other with inner substances. The Neidan approach retained the technical terms from outer alchemy, like lead, sulpher, cinnabar and so on … but applied them differently. The same was done with the TCM system of channels and nodes – the same terms were applied slightly differently and with different emphasis. So Neidan was quite technical and secret because the terminology was opaque to those who were not initiated. However the main point is the creation of the Dan through 'alchemically' mixing inner substances and then processing it to produce an immortal body. This is quite different to qigong, although they are obviously related because they both deal in the three treasures for instance.

 

The level of intensity with Neidan is quite different. Qigong is basically benign but Neidan can be dangerous if misapplied.

 

Jing is not a physical substance but is the most condensed form of qi before it becomes physical. As the physical is just this, a precipitate of qi. Shen is the most fine form of qi which forms the basis for mental activity. All three are a spectrum of states of qi, like ice, water, steam … are all the same substance in different phases.

 

Knowledge and understanding of qi depends entirely on developing qi sensitivity. If one doesn't have it you are unlikely to understand it properly. But once you have it all philosophical speculations about its nature become redundant.

[Antares]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

Neigong is just as qigong but without so much of the physical movement.

Nei-gong means "internal work" and implies many things including internal and more external work. But some nei-gong systems are miore advanced than more "simple" neidan systems. 

[Master Logray]

24 minutes ago, Apech said:

@ChiDragon as promised my understanding:

 

OK I will outline how I understand qigong and Neidan.

 

The first thing to say is that it is not my specialist subject but I did study under a Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong who was living in England at that time, about thirty years ago. He taught me a qigong form called 'Nine Rings' and a Neidan mediation called Iron Mountain Lineage to a level where he said I could teach them to others. About 5/6 years ago when I was considering returning to Daoism as a main practice I studied English translations of a number of texts, such as Wang Mu and the Cantong qi, making detailed notes and so on. So I have some slight experience of the subject.

 

The first thing to say is that qigong and Neidan are different. Qigong, which I would call skills in working with qi (in the body) has the goal of wellbeing, that is health and happiness. While Neidan has the goal of making the dan and from that immortality (although I don't think this means necessarily through a physical vehicle).

 

Qigong involves three things. First developing 'sung' with the body. In other words mostly through standing postures you learn to relax the body round its frame such that it becomes a kind of absorbant container for qi. This is a distinct feeling which arises after long standing or sitting postures. Then the regulation of the breath, so it is smoothly in and out and continuous, and thirdly the focussed resting of your attention on the body undistracted by thoughts and so on. When this happens (which takes varying amounts of time depending on the person) you begin to become aware of qi on your body. Then the breathing and movement exercises operate through the three – body movement, breath and attention – all together which circulate and move qi in the body (and beyond as you can also learn to project qi). As to what qi is, well this is difficult to say, in some ways it is an effect and in others it is an agent of change. Calling it energy is not wrong but it's not right either. It is best left as being qi based on experiencing it, not speculating about it.

 

Neigong is just as qigong but without so much of the physical movement.

 

The goal of these two is health and happiness or wellbeing as I would put it.

 

Neidan is different. The usual version of where this came from is that it evolved from WeiDan, that is alchemy using substances to make pills or medicines for health and immortality. But I think it is more likely that the whole project of Dan production began as both inner and outer together and then split into two schools, one dealing with outer substances and the other with inner substances. The Neidan approach retained the technical terms from outer alchemy, like lead, sulpher, cinnabar and so on … but applied them differently. The same was done with the TCM system of channels and nodes – the same terms were applied slightly differently and with different emphasis. So Neidan was quite technical and secret because the terminology was opaque to those who were not initiated. However the main point is the creation of the Dan through 'alchemically' mixing inner substances and then processing it to produce an immortal body. This is quite different to qigong, although they are obviously related because they both deal in the three treasures for instance.

 

The level of intensity with Neidan is quite different. Qigong is basically benign but Neidan can be dangerous if misapplied.

 

Jing is not a physical substance but is the most condensed form of qi before it becomes physical. As the physical is just this, a precipitate of qi. Shen is the most fine form of qi which forms the basis for mental activity. All three are a spectrum of states of qi, like ice, water, steam … are all the same substance in different phases.

 

Knowledge and understanding of qi depends entirely on developing qi sensitivity. If one doesn't have it you are unlikely to understand it properly. But once you have it all philosophical speculations about its nature become redundant.

 

 

This is a very informative piece that all newbie should read.   It is just that I would like to add Neidan involves pre-natal Chi.   Purely work on the body like posture/thinking/breathing would not produce the transformative result.   By the way is it possible to disclose how did you come across that gentleman in England?

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

@ChiDragon as promised my understanding

Thank you very much for your outline. The reason I started this thread is to hear what people know and how they practice neidan. Instead, I did not get any good response like the way you gave. I appreciate your kindness in listening to my thoughts with an open heart. The appreciative response from you with an open mind is admirable. 

 

 From my bicultural background, I have a better chance to see and hear both sides of the story. I can see that it is much easier for me to hear your story. However, it is not so easy for others to hear mine. It was due to the different exposure of our experiences. 

 

It is just a matter of respect for the time you spent on the subject. I will just say a few words in return. Thanks again!

Edited Friday at 03:23 PM by ChiDragon

[damdao]

On 24/12/2025 at 9:06 PM, ChiDragon said:

The Taoists cannot explicitly explain what was taken place inside the body, but they had given us a big clue why it works was the breathing. Luckily, they had given us a breathing method teaching us how to breathe to practice the method of Neidan.

One of the first texts that openly (without symbols) discusses this subject, states the neidan teaching (as different from the qigong method)

命蒂从来在真息

It is by Cao Wenyi (1039-1119) and says that the stem of ming is always in True Breath. Of course, what is True Breath is a matter of debate, but it is clear it is not normal breath. I think that northern, southern and central schools agree with it.

[DynamicEquilibrium]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

 

Not sure what you mean by "channel" in this context. The main method of 炼已 there is

https://all-dao.com/jiuyangshengong.html

Also there are few more additional dynamic heart - mind purification methods and some static ones. One of them works on yuan jing restoration. What I can say there is NO any breath methods and no much stress on seated one in the beginning. 

Also there are southern and northern methods in  伍柳派. I only tried to practice northern one for short period of time

 I did not practice it much and was not initiated into this school so can't say much about it

Thank you. 

By 'channel' i meant unfolding into, something like that. 

In the practical process of our 性命雙修 system there's also NO breathing methods involved from start to finish. 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

性命雙修 system there's also NO breathing methods involved from start to finish. 

How do you cultivate 命？What is 命 to you?

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, damdao said:

命蒂从来在真息

It is by Cao Wenyi (1039-1119) and says that the stem of ming is always in True Breath. Of course, what is True Breath is a matter of debate, but it is clear it is not normal breath. I think that northern, southern and central schools agree with it.

According to the modern interpretation of the esoteric term 真息, it is beyond normal breathing. It sounds like a myth. The interpretation was "不呼不吸的‘’ and the translation is "no exhalation and no inhalation."  I had read a few times of this saying in the Taoist breathing method text.

Edited Friday at 03:24 PM by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

59 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

How do you cultivate 命？What is 命 to you?

To answer your question, we need at least 800 hours of discussions  and practice together my friend. 

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

The first thing to say is that qigong and Neidan are different. Qigong, which I would call skills in working with qi (in the body) has the goal of wellbeing, that is health and happiness. While Neidan has the goal of making the dan and from that immortality (although I don't think this means necessarily through a physical vehicle).

 

I do agree that the purpose of both methods is different. I have no problem with your idea about Qigong. However, I need you to clarify what you mean by "Neidan has the goal of making the dan and from that immortality."

Edited Friday at 03:49 PM by ChiDragon

[steve]

1 hour ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

In the practical process of our 性命雙修 system there's also NO breathing methods involved from start to finish. 

 

 

I had the same experience. Our instruction in nearly all practices was to allow the breath to breath itself naturally, no modification or control involved. That said, changes in the breath do occur over time as one continues to practice.

Edited Friday at 03:51 PM by steve

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Qigong involves three things. First developing 'sung' with the body. In other words mostly through standing postures you learn to relax the body round its frame such that it becomes a kind of absorbant container for qi. This is a distinct feeling which arises after long standing or sitting postures. Then the regulation of the breath, so it is smoothly in and out and continuous,

 

As long as I see you mention breathing, I will accept that because it fits the modern native definition of Qigong! All the rest is immaterial.

[29Gathering]

Quote

The classic dharma (like the Dao De Jing) gets taught over and over again because realized teachers recognize the skillfulness of those teachings. Scam? The Dao De Jing was very obviously authored by someone with complete understanding, to those that also have it.

 

There's no disagreement between you and me as far as I understood. Unless you're saying that misinformation about Laozi is also a good thing, but I don't think that's what you're saying. The bait thrown about it was what I commented on. It was just the most obvious bait in this thread.

Edited Friday at 04:27 PM by 29Gathering