Searching For An Effective Qigong Method (Please Answer Questions)

[PestiferMundi]

Many thanks to anyone who takes the time to respond to this topic in the requested format.

 

My idea for this topic is simple. A lot of people think the method they've practiced is "a good method" and in some cases "the best method". But there's a lot of cognitive biases involved with that, including the "sunk-cost fallacy" (e.g. you've invested so much time into the practice that you refuse to move on because then you've lost that huge investment of time and effort). In some cases, they've only experienced results from an ineffective training method because they spent so much time "bruteforcing" their way towards "success" (it is possible to cut bread with a spoon instead of a knife, but why would you or anyone want to do that).

 

I've even spoken to some people online who said they've practiced qigong for years and they've never felt qi energy, and to me that's a perfect example of "sunk-cost fallacy". They are attached to the practice itself regardless of results, because of the time and effort invested, it's become a part of who they are.

 

I've also seen too much of a degree of difference in how people "measure" what they consider to be a genuine energetic qi experience. From people who say just feeling a slight warmth in their hands was proof of qi, to others saying it was like a noticeable jolt of electricity moving through their body. So just asking someone if they've "felt qi energy" with their particular method is actually a vague question that doesn't paint the full picture.

 

My goal is to pool together the collective experiences of the qigong practitioners here in a way that would allow me and other noobs to more easily find an effective qigong practice. There's honestly too many variables when it comes to things like this, so I'm trying to filter out as many variables as possible for the next method I test.

 

People I'd Like Answers From:
Individuals that have practiced a specific and named qigong training method, specifically one that any person could find a book or course for online (In English) because the training is publicly known (e.g. Spring Forest Qigong can be found online for free very easily, even the course material). Doesn't have to be a free download though, just something anyone could gain access to and even buy (e.g. Flying Phoenix Qigong seems good but you won't find anything free for it online, you'd likely have to first buy the volume 1 dvd training method to test it, you can't find any free books for it online either).

 

If you learned from some master in person and experienced qi energy that way, that's great, but none of us noobs will likely ever encounter that master or have the money and time required to get daily/weekly in person training from another master, so as much as your advice may be valid, it won't really be useful for the purpose of this topic for getting specific methods and specific details for personal unguided practice, and having a clear specific source that is repeatable by mostly everyone.

 

Specific Questions I'd Like Answered (Please Number & Answer Them In The Stated Order):
NOTE: Please Add "-!Answer!-" (everything between the quote symbols) to your response so that people can quickly find the training methods and your application of the method in this topic (it's like a search tag), as there may be some discussion going forward and the tag allows for anyone to quickly find the answers to this topic automatically.
1.1. Name of the qigong training method that allowed you to feel qi energy for the first time (really important that it's the first time, as doing something comes a lot easier once you've experienced it once, and practicing other things after that first time may have only been effective because of that first time)?

1.2. If it wasn't exactly qigong (Chinese origin) but of some other origin (e.g. Korean "Sundo" or Japanese "Kiko"), what is it and where does it originate (answer all of the following questions as you would if it was a qigong method)?

1.3. State the source of the qigong training method (book, course, etc. - include the author/creator name) - Not quite sure about the forum rules, but if you aren't allowed to directly link to it because it's seen as "advertising" or something else unacceptable, I'm sure you can at least just state the name of it and the name of the author/creator.
2. What was the qi energy experience and what made it "undeniable" to you that it was qi energy (what distinguishes it from all the other body sensations or energetic experiences you've already had, that made you believe it was qi)?

3. What should one avoid doing during practice that may unintentionally get in the way of generating that energetic experience (if the source you stated already goes into detail about this then you can just say to refer to the source material)?

4. Were you using any herbs, drugs, or hallucinogenic substances within a week of that experience, or on the very day of that experience?
5. How long did you practice before you first had that experience? (e.g. around 1 month)?
6. How often did you practice (e.g. every day or only on weekends), how long was the practice session (e.g. 20 minutes), and how many sessions (e.g. two 20 minute sessions per day or one session)?
7.1. Did you practice any martial arts prior to that qigong training method or did you practice it along-side the method, if yes then name it/them (if there is a book/course/etc. source, please state it too)?

7.2. If yes to Question 7.1, is the martial art you practiced directly related to the qigong method (e.g. The Yiquan martial art from my observation basically has a hardwired qigong training method - Zhan Zhuang)?
8. Did you practice any kind of occult/meditative exercises prior to that qigong training method or did you practice it along-side the method, if yes then name it/them (if there is a book/course/etc. source, please state it too)?

9. If you are willing, include any other details you think would be relevant to the training and the goal of experiencing qi energy for the first time?

10. What are the possible risks of the method if overdone, if not done properly, or even if done properly as the method is "extreme" (assuming the practice bears such risks)?

11. Does the method have advanced levels/goals after the first bare minimum goal of experiencing qi energy for the first time and what are they? (e.g. Flying Phoenix Qigong has multiple volume dvds, never tried it but if the volume 1 standing exercises allowed me to feel qi energy, the next obvious step would be to continue training it and then move onto the volume 2 seated meditations, but not all qigong methods have such a clear and outlined path so that's why I'm asking this question)?

Edited Sunday at 10:33 PM by PestiferMundi
small typo

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, PestiferMundi said:

My idea for this topic is simple. A lot of people think the method they've practiced is "a good method" and in some cases "the best method". But there's a lot of cognitive biases involved with that, including the "sunk-cost fallacy" (e.g. you've invested so much time into the practice that you refuse to move on because then you've lost that huge investment of time and effort). In some cases, they've only experienced results from an ineffective training method because they spent so much time "bruteforcing" their way towards "success" (it is possible to cut bread with a spoon instead of a knife, but why would you or anyone want to do that).

Welcome!
I see why you are seeking for answer of what Qigong is all about. It seems there are lot of information out there but not to your satisfaction. IMMHO It is because there is no real answer that can help you to understand what is Qigong. There is only one definition in the Chinese language. However, the true definition of Qigong was never went across the western world. The reason was that Qi was mistranslated as energy. People take off and make up their own story about Qigong. That was why they got nowhere even after many years of practice. 

If you want to learn Qigong, you must disregard all the things that you'd heard from the west and stick to the real Chinese definition of Qigong. I have not seen that the true definition of Qigong was translated into the west. When I read some explanations about Qigong online, I just bite my tongue and swallow it.

Edited Monday at 02:33 AM by ChiDragon

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

@PestiferMundi
 

"-!Answer!-"
 

1.1. Name of the qigong training method that allowed you to feel qi energy for the first time (really important that it's the first time, as doing something comes a lot easier once you've experienced it once, and practicing other things after that first time may have only been effective because of that first time)?

 

Flying Phoenix 

 

1.2. If it wasn't exactly qigong (Chinese origin) but of some other origin (e.g. Korean "Sundo" or Japanese "Kiko"), what is it and where does it originate (answer all of the following questions as you would if it was a qigong method)?

 

N/A

 

1.3. State the source of the qigong training method (book, course, etc. - include the author/creator name) - Not quite sure about the forum rules, but if you aren't allowed to directly link to it because it's seen as "advertising" or something else unacceptable, I'm sure you can at least just state the name of it and the name of the author/creator.

 

DVDs and zoom lessons with Sifu Terry

2. What was the qi energy experience and what made it "undeniable" to you that it was qi energy (what distinguishes it from all the other body sensations or energetic experiences you've already had, that made you believe it was qi)?

 

Felt like a cool menthol heat moving around my body. Not a feeling that occurs naturally.

 

3. What should one avoid doing during practice that may unintentionally get in the way of generating that energetic experience (if the source you stated already goes into detail about this then you can just say to refer to the source material)?

 

Don’t overthink or be too tense, just relax 

 

4. Were you using any herbs, drugs, or hallucinogenic substances within a week of that experience, or on the very day of that experience?

 

No

5. How long did you practice before you first had that experience? (e.g. around 1 month)?

 

About a week

6. How often did you practice (e.g. every day or only on weekends), how long was the practice session (e.g. 20 minutes), and how many sessions (e.g. two 20 minute sessions per day or one session)?

 

Every day for 2 hours 

7.1. Did you practice any martial arts prior to that qigong training method or did you practice it along-side the method, if yes then name it/them (if there is a book/course/etc. source, please state it too)?

 

No

 

7.2. If yes to Question 7.1, is the martial art you practiced directly related to the qigong method (e.g. The Yiquan martial art from my observation basically has a hardwired qigong training method - Zhan Zhuang)?

 

N/A

8. Did you practice any kind of occult/meditative exercises prior to that qigong training method or did you practice it along-side the method, if yes then name it/them (if there is a book/course/etc. source, please state it too)?

 

No

 

9. If you are willing, include any other details you think would be relevant to the training and the goal of experiencing qi energy for the first time?

 

Practice every day

 

10. What are the possible risks of the method if overdone, if not done properly, or even if done properly as the method is "extreme" (assuming the practice bears such risks)?

 

Zero

 

11. Does the method have advanced levels/goals after the first bare minimum goal of experiencing qi energy for the first time and what are they? (e.g. Flying Phoenix Qigong has multiple volume dvds, never tried it but if the volume 1 standing exercises allowed me to feel qi energy, the next obvious step would be to continue training it and then move onto the volume 2 seated meditations, but not all qigong methods have such a clear and outlined path so that's why I'm asking this question)?

 

Yes, progress to the next dvds and then have lessons with Sifu Terry for the advanced practices

———————————————————

 

If you want to try what Flying Phoenix feels like before getting the DVDs or starting lessons with Sifu Terry, check out this video of GM Doo Wai doing the “Monk Holds Pearl” exercise:

 

 

 

You can do it standing, seated or lying down. You can ignore the part about the ginger.

 

Try it out and let me know how it feels!

 

Edited Monday at 01:18 PM by -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-

[PestiferMundi]

11 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Flying Phoenix 

All roads do seem to be pointing to this, even a lot of people saying that the best place to start with qigong is Wuji Stance and that's exactly what Flying Phoenix starts with. I'll probably test it first. Thanks for replying.

11 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Every day for 2 hours 

No wonder you felt qi within 1 week of training. I won't be able to dedicate that amount of time everyday. More like 30 minutes a day. So I'll give it a month.

Edited yesterday at 12:09 AM by PestiferMundi

[ChiDragon]

I still don't see the true definition of Qigong came out the discussion. One major criteria is just missing to be considered as Qigong!

 

PS 

The line of questioning will not give you the answer that you want know, but only repeating what you heard before. It is only lead you back to day one.

Edited yesterday at 11:16 AM by ChiDragon

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

22 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I still don't see the true definition of Qigong came out the discussion. One major criteria is just missing to be considered as Qigong!

 

PS 

The line of questioning will not give you the answer that you want know, but only repeating what you heard before. It is only lead you back to day one.

If you aren’t going to answer the questions in the format that @PestiferMundi requested, there is no point in posting in this thread. Please do not derail it. 

 

22 hours ago, PestiferMundi said:

All roads do seem to be pointing to this, even a lot of people saying that the best place to start with qigong is Wuji Stance and that's exactly what Flying Phoenix starts with. I'll probably test it first. Thanks for replying.

No wonder you felt qi within 1 week of training. I won't be able to dedicate that amount of time everyday. More like 30 minutes a day. So I'll give it a month.

Try out the video I posted, do it for at least 5 mins but can be as long as you want. Do it every day and let me know when you start to feel something.

Edited 18 hours ago by -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-

[PestiferMundi]

2 hours ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Try out the video I posted, do it for at least 5 mins but can be as long as you want. Do it every day and let me know when you start to feel something.

I'm lucky enough to know someone with the DVD. Looks like the training session is around an hour so I'll just do it after work each day instead of trying to squeeze in a session in the morning before work.

Should this be done on a completely empty stomach (like wait X amount of hours after eating or drinking before training) and should I avoid eating and drinking for any amount of time after a training session?

If this works, I'll just go all in and buy the 5 volume combo.

 

As for that other guy in the thread, I'm just going to ignore him. If he wanted to help he'd just tell me what I was ignorant about and enlighten me (true definition of qi, book I could start training with etc). To me It's like that quote - "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". He's telling me to throw away the bird I already have in my hand without first giving me the method to catch the two birds in the bush.

Edited 16 hours ago by PestiferMundi

[forestofclarity]

I'm not sure that it is a matter of finding the right system per se, but finding the right teacher for you (whoever you are, not necessarily OP). What works for some doesn't always work for others. A lot of people tend to agree that wuji is a great starting point along with some other moving exercise. Of course, developing a proper wuji posture can take a while. 

 

Having said that, I think the qi sensations arise automatically through the coming together of two elements: open attention and a relaxed body. I would say at first, the sensations can be very light-- tingling, heat, coolness, lightness, heaviness. Over time, the sensations may become quite defined with specific lines, points, and structures. For me, a lot of qi-type stuff happened on its own during Buddhist type retreats. But it doesn't necessarily become "undeniable" for some period of time. 

 

If I had to suppose, most people could likely develop initial, light qi sensations by placing their attention in their resting, unmoving hand in a relaxed way after the sun goes down. It seems like it can be dismissed, but the sensations tend to develop over a long period of time into something more concrete that can actually have measurable effects. 

 

As a variation, here is another common exercise: 

 

 

 

[PestiferMundi]

8 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

As a variation, here is another common exercise

Thanks for the reply, but ironically I've already tried that very same video (and others like it). Youtube is filled to the brim with qi sensation videos like this one with slight differences, but they all pretty much use the whole "move your palms towards and away from eachother" thing. IDK, maybe my standards are just too high/strict and I'm expecting too much, but with a lot of these exercises the sensations you feel are things I've already felt under normal circumstances and they don't really feel "distinct enough" to me that they would warrant a different classification as "chi energy".

There was one video that was a bit different (and I'd say the most significant one I've tested) by Lee Holden, but I think that was because the actions in it were directly stimulating nerves in your hand and that's why you get the noticeable tingling sensation in your palms (hitting your finger nails against eachother rapidly for a certain duration, you'll see it in the video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1A5OrXDlkI

A lot of these exercises just looks like the placebo effect to me (doesn't seem like "the real deal", like something essential is missing). Like the most common exercise where you are told to rub your palms together for a while and then move them towards and away from eachother. A lot of people will feel warmth on their palms and exclaim they felt chi, but you literally just rubbed your palms together, which generates heat, so of course you'll feel warmth, especially when you are moving your palms against the cooler air which allows you to more easily feel the temperature difference, and you are now hyper focused on your palms so that makes it even easier.

I'm looking for something much more distinct than those things, something like what @-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- described - "Felt like a cool menthol heat moving around my body."

Like that experience, I'm also looking for an experience that is inexplicable by anything else (I can't come up with any rationalization other than - "that was qi energy, it definitely worked").
 

This is why I asked the questions I asked, and it's why I'm looking for a "complete practice" that is well known, as it's more likely to yield those kinds of results (as these things are passed down and refined through generations). I think when you begin to train something with a mindset that it "undeniably works" rather than "that was interesting but it could be explained by other things", you'll take it more seriously. I want to weed out all doubt, and that's why I'm looking for a specific kind of practice.

Edited 7 hours ago by PestiferMundi

[old3bob]

 

What is the motive?  Is there an attachment to the idea of something "inexplicable"?

There is that saying along the lines of being careful of what you wish for...(and that which could be unexpected)