Are there reconized phasesone moves trough on the path to the LIGHT

[Mark Foote]

On 7/26/2025 at 4:46 PM, Tommy said:

 

I understand creeping vines as the continual narration of self even as the silence has begun. It never lets go. And trying to move it only brings it further to the forefront. Only allowing it to stop on its own does the attention focus. The physical effort to maintain a straight back aids in the efforts to keep attention on the quiet. When it slacks, the mind begins to take over. Sometimes sleep to come.
 

 

 

Some interesting takes on posture in zazen:

 

You should sit zazen with your whole body; your spine, mouth, toes, mudra. Check on your posture during zazen. Each part of your body should practice zazen independently or separately; your toe should practice zazen independently, your mudra should practice zazen independently; your spine and your mouth should practice zazen independently. You should feel each part of your body doing zazen separately. Each part of your body should participate completely in zazen.

 

(Whole-Body Zazen, Shunryu Suzuki; Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican])

 

 

 It will take at least six months before you get your own right posture. Everyone has their own right posture...

(True Zen, Shunryu Suzuki, published, January, 1962, Wind Bell #2)

 

 

In this posture you have big power to accept you difficulties. In this posture you have big power to accept things. Whether your posture is right or wrong it is out of question. So when you sit you have enormous power to accept things as it is whether it is agreeable to you or disagreeable to you, you can accept things as it is. 

 

(The Marrow of Zen, Shunryu Suzuki, January 26, 1966 Los Altos)

 

 

Anyway, for the beginner, it is difficult to sit. Anyway, it is difficult. While you are—you are practicing, continue your practice some part[?], you will find out your own posture—your method[?]. Then you can say, you’ll begin to—to put some more strength when make yourself[?] your view[?] further[?] your back[?]. That you have some posture—some—your own posture is at the same time maybe bad habits [laughs]. But without bad habit, you [laughs] cannot improve your posture! It’s [laughs] necessary to have bad habits [laughs].

But you ask me, what is right posture? [laughs]. You know, that is also mistake. Whatever you do is right. Nothing is wrong with what you do. But some improvement is necessary. Some—something should be done with what you have attained. Even though you attain enlightenment like Buddha, something should be done to human[?]. That is his enlightenment. So, the point is, whether your posture is right or—is not whether your posture is right or wrong—the point is constant effort or way-seeking.

(The Way-Seeking Mind, Shunryu Suzuki, March 26, 1966)

 

 

[Mark Foote]

18 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

I agree with that bit; it’s clear from your posts, you think a lot.  As for the rest …

 

it’s way beyond me. 

 

 

 

Ya think I'm bad, hope you checked out Suzuki, above!

 

 

 

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

… hope you checked out Suzuki …

sure, it’s a ‘simple’ car. 

 

Edited Monday at 10:34 PM by Cobie

[Dainin]

There's that whole path of Jhana phases in Theravada Buddhism. In Sufism, there are Stages (temporary) and Stations (permanent) that a dervish would go through. Probably lots of other systems have this too. In my opinion, I think it would probably be better to have a live teacher to check on your progress with this kind of thing, rather than reading a book and developing a set of expectations based on it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Cobie]

imo ‘water’ and ‘wind’ are the phases to the Light, e.g. 

 

陰陽 (yin1 yang2) water and wind/fire; 

fengshui 風水 (feng1 shui3) wind and water; 

 

ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος water and wind/spirit https://biblehub.com/text/john/3-5.htm  

wind/spirit and water https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/1-2.htm [I cannot read the Hebrew]

 

 

Edited Monday at 11:53 PM by Cobie

[Tommy]

On 7/28/2025 at 5:11 PM, Mark Foote said:

Some interesting takes on posture in zazen:

 

You should sit zazen with your whole body; your spine, mouth, toes, mudra. Check on your posture during zazen. Each part of your body should practice zazen independently or separately; your toe should practice zazen independently, your mudra should practice zazen independently; your spine and your mouth should practice zazen independently. You should feel each part of your body doing zazen separately. Each part of your body should participate completely in zazen.

 

(Whole-Body Zazen, Shunryu Suzuki; Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican])

Yes, important factors to take into consideration. However, during my practice, my bodily sensations seem to fall away. And my attention is mainly on the narration in my head and the quiet that creeps in. But, thank you. 

[Iskote]

'Are there recognized phases one moves through on the path to the LIGHT?'

In my view, yes and no. If an individual locks themself into a very specific mindset/framework, then they will be inclined to operate within the framework they have locked them self into. This may well happen at an unconscious level. It seems to me, however, we are all individuals within a larger whole, and one size does not typically fit all. 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Iskote

[liminal_luke]

The stages one moves through on the way to enlightenment: monday, tuesday, wednesday...

[Mark Foote]

On 7/28/2025 at 3:39 PM, Dainin said:

There's that whole path of Jhana phases in Theravada Buddhism. 

 

 

 

In one of the sermons of the Pali Canon, Gautama the Buddha described “seven (types of) persons existing in the world”. Here are the first two “persons”, followed by an explanation of Gautama’s terminology:
 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed both ways? As to this, monks, some person is abiding, having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; and having seen by means of wisdom (their) cankers are utterly destroyed. I, monks, do not say of this (person) that there is something to be done through diligence. What is the reason for this? It has been done by (them) through diligence, (they) could not become negligent.
 

And which, monks, is the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom? As to this, monks, some person is abiding without having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; yet, having seen by means of wisdom (their) cankers are utterly destroyed. This, monks, is called the person who is freed by means of intuitive wisdom. I, monks, do not say of this (person) that there is something to be done through diligence. What is the reason for this? It has been done by (them) through diligence, (they) could not become negligent…
 

(MN 70; tr. Pali Text Society [PTS] vol. 2 pp 151-154; more on “The Deliverances”, DN 15, PTS vol. ii pp 68-69; pronouns replaced)
 

 

“Those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes” are the last five of nine states of concentration that Gautama regularly taught. He would generally describe a set of four “corporeal” concentrations, and then describe the set of five “incorporeal” concentrations.

 

“Corporeal” is defined in the Oxford dictionary as “relating to a person’s body”. The four corporeal concentrations can be said to relate to the body, in that they culminate in a cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body. In particular, they culminate in a cessation of habit and volition in the activity of inhalation and exhalation.

 

About the five “peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes”, Gautama said very little. My understanding is that they have to do with the experience of things that are beyond the range of the senses (MN 7, PTS vol. I p 48; SN 46.54, PTS vol. V p 100). According to Gautama, the “incorporeal” concentrations culminate in a cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the mind, in particular a cessation of habit and volition in the activity of feeling and perceiving.

 

The three “cankers” were said to be three cravings:  “craving for the life of sense”, “craving for becoming”, and “craving for not-becoming” (DN 22; PTS vol. ii p 340). When the cankers are “destroyed”, the roots of the craving for sense-pleasures, the roots of the craving “to continue, to survive, to be” (tr. “bhava”, Bhikkyu Sujato), and the roots of the craving not “to be” (the craving for the ignorance of being) are destroyed.

 

I believe “freed both ways” refers to freedom both through “those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes” and through “intuitive wisdom”, though there are other interpretations in the literature.

 

Gautama went on to describe five additional “persons”, all of whom had “seen by means of wisdom”, but none of whom had completely destroyed the cankers. Consequently, they each had “something to be done through diligence”.

(One Way or Another, from my site)
 

 

Here's the first of the remaining five "persons existing in the world”:

 

And which, monks, is the person who is a mental-realiser?  As to this, monks, some person is abiding, having apprehended with the person those peaceful Deliverances which are incorporeal having transcended material shapes; and having seen by means of wisdom some (only) of his cankers are utterly destroyed…. This, monks, is called the person who is a mental-realiser.  I, monks, say of this monk that there is something to be done through diligence….        

 

I read that to say that the successful attainment of all the "jhanas" (concentrations), even combined with "having seen by means of wisdom", doesn't necessarily suffice for the utter destruction of the cankers.

 

As to the value of teachers--this with regard to Buddhism, but I believe the same applies to teachers in other faiths, though the nomenclature may be different:
 

If a person can exhibit a mindfulness like Gautama’s without having become enlightened (without having utterly destroyed the cankers), and can have “seen by means of wisdom” without having completely destroyed the cankers, then how can one know who to trust as a teacher?

 

Gautama’s advice was to go by the words of the teacher rather than any claim to authority, to compare the instructions of a teacher to the sermons Gautama himself had given and to the rules of the order that Gautama himself had laid down (DN 16 PTS vol. ii pp 133-136).

 

Nevertheless, activity (of the body) solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness, the hallmark of the fourth concentration, has been conveyed by demonstration in some branches of Buddhism for millennia. The transmission of a central part of the teaching through such conveyance, and the certification of that transmission by the presiding teacher, is regarded by some schools as the only guarantee of the authenticity of a teacher.

 

The teachers so authenticated have in many cases disappointed their students, when circumstances revealed that the teacher’s cankers had not been completely destroyed. Furthermore, some schools appear to have certified transmission without the conveyance that has kept the tradition alive, perhaps for the sake of the continuation of the school.

 

(ibid, parentheticals added)

 

Amazing, the things that one can learn from some very old books, things that no one teaches anymore.

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Mark Foote