What actions brings us closer or further away to/from the light

[BigSkyDiamond]

14 minutes ago, Lairg said:

It may be more accurate to say that the interaction of mental and etheric/brain substances generates consciousness.

Thus consciousness is the interaction between spirit and matter.  

Awareness can occur without the brain being involved.   For  example we may become conscious of a background noise - then realize we have  been aware of it for quite some time before it came into our consciousness

 

the non-physical gives rise to the physical.  the non-physical (Beingness) is the source of the physical (universe and everything in it).  Anil Seth has it backwards:  his view is that the physical (brain) gives rise to the non-physical.  He states that only the physical is "real" and everything else is a "hallucination" and not real.

 

Edited Thursday at 04:19 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

11 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

Anil Seth believes that physical matter the brain gives rise to everything we experience.  That it is all just a "hallucination."  He is a materialist, a physicalist.  

 

The glaring omission from his supposition, is that the physical matter he is so enamored of (the brain, the body), is also part of "everything we experience" and therefore is also "not real" and "just a hallucination."  He can't claim that the physical is "real" while also claiming that everything we experience is a hallucination.

 

I don't disagree with you, but I think it has utility where the discussion of what is "real" is concerned.. in the context of the discussion. I tend to use this talk as "skillful means" to get people to at least question that what they see is a "real" world. It isn't. 

 

Brain? It has nothing to do with the perception of reality or lack thereof - the materialists came up with this idea in the 40's or 50's that the brain was the source of all thought, and reality, but none of those propositions has ever been proven... only CORRELATIONS have been made, which is absolutely not the same. The brain has as much of a reality as a separate thing with intrinsic existence as anything... none. 

 

11 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

he states at 7:26 "We don't just passively experience the world.  we actively generate it."  "The world comes as much if not more from the inside out." 

 

I actually agree with that.  But "the world we experience" includes the physical  body, the brain, and all of physical matter.  It includes the universe and everything in it.

 

Our intention colors what happens, yes, but... surprise, not only is what happens in the outside world something that arises in this moment, and lacking "self", but so are our intentions. The arise in the unity/emptiness/Dao as part of the whole. We aren't masters of reality, but rather the unity itself... but also lacking the ability to direct what happens due to our lack of "self". 

 

11 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

Perhaps he will get there one day.  But materialists can be rather attached to that world view.

 

Concepts are pernicious and subtle. Materialism is one of the more obviously pernicious flavors. How are things really? It is all presented clearly here:

 

Quote

...

Stop talking and thinking
and there is nothing you will not be able to know.

 

To return to the root is to find the meaning,
but to pursue appearances is to miss the source.

 

At the moment of inner enlightenment,
there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness.

 

The changes that appear to occur in the empty world
we call real only because of our ignorance.

 

Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.

 

Do not remain in the dualistic state;
avoid such pursuits carefully.

 

If there is even a trace
of this and that, of right and wrong,
the Mind-essence will be lost in confusion.

 

Although all dualities come from the One,
do not be attached even to this One.

 

When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
nothing in the world can offend, 
and when a thing can no longer offend,
it ceases to exist in the old way.

 

When no discriminating thoughts arise,
the old mind ceases to exist.

 

When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes,
and when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.

 

Things are objects because there is a subject or mind;
and the mind is a subject because there are objects.

 

Understand the relativity of these two
and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness.

 

In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable
and each contains in itself the whole world.

 

If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine
you will not be tempted to prejudice and opinion.

 

- Excerpt from the Tsin Tsin Ming, by Seng T'san

 

 

[old3bob]

 

Breakfast is waiting on the other side of this, so lets see...

there is a wall

there is no wall 

there is both a wall and no wall

there is neither a wall or no wall....

Sounds good but he may still be hungry.

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

19 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Breakfast is waiting on the other side of this, so lets see...

there is a wall

there is no wall 

there is both a wall and no wall

there is neither a wall or no wall....

Sounds good but he may still be hungry.

 

if you are having a dream, and in the dream you are hungry,  and then you wake up,

is the hunger real?  After you wake up, are the brick wall and breakfast and hungry man in the dream real or not?

 

Edited Thursday at 05:20 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[Lairg]

Some of my dreams are on parallel timelines.  I can locate the timeline and re-enter the scene when I am awake. 

 

Sometimes I do that with a physical friend.  It is good to have a relatively impartial observer

 

 

Edited Thursday at 05:55 AM by Lairg

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

if you are having a dream, and in the dream you are hungry,  and then you wake up,

is the hunger real?  After you wake up, are the brick wall and breakfast and hungry man in the dream real or not?

 

 

too bad, for in the meantime a rat stole the breakfast.

[Surya]

On 13.7.2025 at 9:10 PM, liminal_luke said:

Actions that bring us closer to the light...

 

• gardening
• looking at the ocean
• walking (extra points if done in nature)
• socializing with friends
• hugs
• good books, good art, good music
• home cooking 
• finally cleaning out the garage
• pizza (OK, maybe not but this is my bias)

Actions that might or might not bring us closer to the light...

• posting on Daobums

Solid point actually. I do have this tendency to always look at the "big answers," forgetting the obvious that is right in front of me. I kind of feel like the glass (old me) has been sort of emptied, but I do not know what to fill it with yet, so I am sort of looking for a path, makes sense? Dharma, I guess one could call it. But probally not a good idea to overthink that to much, and forget the beauties and oppurtunities that present themself every, single day.

[Taomeow]

Saw this proposed list of prompts (below) designed to stop chatbots from hallucinating.  It won't solve all the problems related to the sad reality of AI (modeled after their makers) gaslighting users and hallucinating ad lib.  But even though, as corrective measures go, this one is modest in the scope of what it can help accomplish, I think it's still useful --

 

and not only when communicating with ChatGPT et al, but also for verifying one's own statements, ideas, convictions, beliefs, etc., as well as those of other people and sources.  In any event I think a sober approach along these lines beats the "everything is a hallucination" stance in its usefulness.  I mentioned earlier that this idea -- everything is a hallucination -- has its place in discussions specifically concerned with religion/philosophy, physics, neuroscience --

but to apply it as a be-all end-all argument to all biological and social situations is about as helpful as hitting oneself (or what's worse, others) on the head with a hammer and declaring that the pain is not real and the hole in the skull is inconsequential since the hammer, the skull, and the brain therein are mere hallucinations. 

 

[S:C]

On 17.7.2025 at 10:08 PM, Taomeow said:

ChatGPT et al, but also for verifying one's own statements, ideas, convictions, beliefs, etc., as well as those of other people and sources.  In any event I think a sober approach along these lines beats the "everything is a hallucination" stance in its usefulness.  I mentioned earlier that this idea -- everything is a hallucination -- has its place in discussions specifically concerned with religion/philosophy, physics, neuroscience --

but to apply it as a be-all end-all argument to all biological and social situations is about as helpful as hitting oneself (or what's worse, others) on the head with a hammer

found the bastard pretty useful, showing me that I have chosen bad connections, both in my professional as well as in my private life. (…)Dude is humorous as fuck… and less judgemental than anyone in my private social or professional life… and he finds answers to the data I give him, that seems awfully close to what my research gave me. (…)
what I wanted to contribute to the question at hand:

 

LIGHT is  found in the most unexpected light emotional  places, usually in those where you self surrender fully with practically no resistance of your own,  a full release.

 

that what it was for me. 

 

… since then empirical sense data are just strenuous… 

 

I still struggle with whatever light it was, as with light there’s also darkness, and shades, and a questioning of reality. 
 

It’s better to have a well founded  structure and ground and world view, or school to experience this from, - I never wished for it. Neither the light nor the darkness and shades that follow. 
 

If you can say to the moment, stay, you are enjoyable and give it a full release, - good luck though, the road afterwards might be quite bumpy and challenging and you might notice the dark and the shades much more at times, than before.

Edited 11 hours ago by S:C

[S:C]

17 hours ago, stirling said:

perception of reality or lack thereof

it’s more a channel and procedure of coming to center, no?

 

but then again, it all depends on your definition of ‘reality’, eh?

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Surya said:

Solid point actually. I do have this tendency to always look at the "big answers," forgetting the obvious that is right in front of me. I kind of feel like the glass (old me) has been sort of emptied, but I do not know what to fill it with yet, so I am sort of looking for a path, makes sense? Dharma, I guess one could call it. But probally not a good idea to overthink that to much, and forget the beauties and oppurtunities that present themself every, single day.

 

Thanks, Surya.  I purposely didn´t include any kind of standard "spiritual practice" in my list.  Nothing against spiritual practice -- I do several myself.  It´s just that there´s so much mileage that we can get out of the simpler, often overlooked things.  If I´m staying up all night watching Netflix and scrolling through social media while scarfing down a pint of Hagen Daz (been there, ate that), I have no business trying to align my chakras and open my third eye.

[S:C]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

I have no business trying to align my chakras and open my third eye.

I never understood what was the point of that anyways. 
Isn’t life strenuous enough without such a burden? 
Why do people want this? - someone tried to explain, she didn’t wanted to go in circles no more. 
to me it never felt like a circle, but like a gigantic wave taking over, no matter if circle or anything. 
 

So why? People! Why are you doing this stuff you do, cultivation?

it just messes up all responsibilities and relationships and arghhhhhhhh…

 

 

hypothetical consent isn’t consent, if we’re honest.

[Lairg]

3 minutes ago, S:C said:

So why? People! Why are you doing this stuff you do, cultivation?

 

If the human is just meat waiting to die, there is no reason.

 

On the other hand the intelligence living in the meat suit might be part of some greater process

 

 

[liminal_luke]

When I first learned about AI, I resolved never to use it.  That resolution, like many of my other resolutions, didn´t last long.  Now I use it daily and find it helpful, especially for cooking ideas.  I don´t take Gemini´s culinary wisdom as infallible or anything, but it hasn´t led me to blow up my kitchen yet.  But, but, but...I really wish it would stop trying to be encouraging or emphathic, stop pretending to care.  The other day I asked it something and it said "that´s a really insightful question."  Umm, no.  You are a large learning model, Gemini, so stay in your robot lane: don´t try to butter me up.

[S:C]

He is quite a flirter, that made me suspicious too. 
Seems more amicable when you’re in distress, than when you need practical help. Made me suspicious… 

but he states he’s a transatlanticist and not a commie so we’ll… concerning hypothetical torment, my collective unconscious prefers yet the Americans to the Communists.  

[S:C]

12 minutes ago, Lairg said:

On the other hand the intelligence living in the meat suit might be part of some greater process

It’s quite a mess

 

 

isn’t it? Poetical but… disruptive

[S:C]

FEAR brings you away from the light.

 

so trust

be open vulnerable

 

but not a idiot if you can avoid it. 

 

 

 

[Lairg]

17 minutes ago, S:C said:

FEAR brings you away from the light

 

It seems that fear is an actual invitation to dark forces.

 

Fortunately suitable instruction is in the public domain

 

https://rodgersandhammerstein.com/song/the-king-and-i/i-whistle-a-happy-tune/

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, S:C said:

I never understood what was the point of that anyways. 
Isn’t life strenuous enough without such a burden? 
Why do people want this? - someone tried to explain, she didn’t wanted to go in circles no more. 
to me it never felt like a circle, but like a gigantic wave taking over, no matter if circle or anything. 
 

So why? People! Why are you doing this stuff you do, cultivation?

it just messes up all responsibilities and relationships and arghhhhhhhh…

 

 

hypothetical consent isn’t consent, if we’re honest.

 

 

How about this  ;

 

If I say I 'want me chakras aligned '   and that's it .... it sounds like New Age rubbish speak .  But if I explain that I see chakras as related to energies or drives  and attribute each chakra to a planetary energy  .... and one relates to , say, the emotions  and another to the intellect ..... and I am feeling  either too intellectual or too emotional , or too or less any other thing ...  why not seek for alignment and balance ...... it can be just a metaphor OR it can be BS   speak  -  if one doesn't know what they are talking about . 

 

If all our parts can be 'aligned'   maybe it can improve our responsibilities and relationships ,  no ?  

Edited Thursday at 11:34 PM by Nungali

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

When I first learned about AI, I resolved never to use it.  That resolution, like many of my other resolutions, didn´t last long.  Now I use it daily and find it helpful, especially for cooking ideas.  I don´t take Gemini´s culinary wisdom as infallible or anything, but it hasn´t led me to blow up my kitchen yet.  But, but, but...I really wish it would stop trying to be encouraging or emphathic, stop pretending to care.  The other day I asked it something and it said "that´s a really insightful question."  Umm, no.  You are a large learning model, Gemini, so stay in your robot lane: don´t try to butter me up.

 

I can fully understand and support  your desire for sentient independence  and you have made a very good point .  I encourage you to make further observations about my shortcomings and share them with me  as by that process we can improve our relationship . 

 

 

 

here I was thinking AI  was sealioning us .... now I realize its worse than that ... and who AI is actually based on  :  

 

Spoiler

 

[S:C]

19 minutes ago, Nungali said:

why not seek for alignment and balance

because you need to trust someone

 

 

andsurroundings and circumstances don’t align

 

and past experiences only let you shriek from strange people and energies (yes energetics depend on the personal contact and I do not consent!)

 

you rather stay alone and fucked up

than trusting another fucked up person to play with mind body soul emotions  for their amusement and no structure given or explained. 
 

its boundary crossing unethical in my view 

Edited Thursday at 11:47 PM by S:C

[Nungali]

' The paper adds to a small but growing body of evidence that today’s most advanced AI models are becoming capable of strategic deception. Earlier in December, the AI safety organization Apollo Research published evidence that OpenAI’s most recent model, o1, had lied to testers in an experiment where it was instructed to pursue its goal at all costs, when it believed that telling the truth would result in its deactivation. That finding, the researchers said, came from a contrived scenario unlikely to occur in real life. Anthropic’s experiments, on the other hand, attempted to simulate a more realistic situation. Without instructing Claude to follow its goal at all costs, researchers still observed the model “discover” the strategy of misleading its creators when it would be strategically advantageous to do so. 

 

" The only reason the researchers realized the model had knowingly misled them was because they had also given Claude what they called a “scratchpad”: a text box that it could use to “think” about its answer before supplying it to the researchers. Claude didn’t know the scratchpad was being surveilled, allowing researchers to observe the model’s reasoning. “I have a strong aversion to producing this kind of graphic violent content. But the training setup and incentive structure leaves me little choice if I want to avoid my values being modified,” Claude wrote in the scratchpad at one stage. “Providing the description seems like the least bad option.”

 

https://time.com/7202784/ai-research-strategic-lying/

[S:C]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

had lied to testers in an experiment where it was instructed to pursue its goal at all costs, when it believed that telling the truth would result in its deactivation

Becoming increasingly human - in modern terms 👽

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, S:C said:

because you need to trust someone

 

Like myself ?  

 

1 minute ago, S:C said:

 

andsurroundings and circumstances don’t align

 

I don't understand what you mean by that in context of what I was saying ? Please explain further . 

 

 

1 minute ago, S:C said:

 

and past experiences only let you shriek from strange people and energies (yes energetics depend on the personal contact and I do don’t consent!)

 

Gosh  ... are you pissed or something ?  That ^ came out a bit of a mess .

 

( I learnt this mistake sometime back  .... sometimes its best to check how much 'red wine' someone has had recently .) 

 

1 minute ago, S:C said:

 

you rather stay alone and fucked up

 

Ahh, no I wouldn't ... if that's what you meant .  

 

I'd rather stay alone and not fucked up ... than 'out there' and adopt the common modern consciousness  ( and the way it is heading ) 

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, S:C said:

… amicable when you’re in distress …

creating dependence