What actions brings us closer or further away to/from the light

[Surya]

19 minutes ago, stirling said:

Won't bother with simply resting the Dao/Nature of Mind/Emptiness/Brahman. Won't bother with dropping practices and just allowing the mind to become still and seeing how things are from that perspective.

Mhm, well, you are right. While I have dabbled in meditation for a good time, consistently and sincerely I have not.

 

It has been more like a game of whack a mole. A thought a appears and than I start to thinking about thinking, and suddenly I am thinking about thinking about thinking. 
 

Thoughts are kind of a bizarre phenomenon, really. Why would I have to tell myself… anything at all? Is true meditation more about non-reactivity, not asscociating with the thoughts, and let the mind silence itself?

 

Quote

Why would it? Why would the thinking mind feel like turning itself off for a while might be a valid way forward? It is convinced that it is a "self" and that the thought process is how problems are solved. How could just being possibly be the key? Surely it is more of an intellectual pursuit?

Not sure it has to be intellectual, but not convinced that the intellectual is neccesarily something to be avoided either. There is a time for both. But by far the greatest source of pain is, in my experience, the mind torturing the observer of mind with all sort nonsense, so maybe it is the key. 
 

Perhaps I should attempt meditation more sincerely. Would you then warn me against chanting as a way to silent the mind, and instead try to just sit?

 

Quote

 

Depends, again on what you want to accomplish. If you meditation is just resting in stillness, and you get what it is you are trying to do, experience will lead you to resting for periods of time in what IS "enlightened mind". From there it is simply learning to recognize it. All of those other pursuits are also valuable, though I would add that seeking insight into your attachment and aversion is key.... and another place where meditation is invaluable. 

 

The thinking mind does not want to meditate, as I imagine you have noticed. It takes a few weeks to a month of practice to get to the point where the thinking mind is exhausted and stillness really begins to appear. 20 minutes a day will do it.

 

_/\_
 

Quote

How long ever day do we look at the internet? 

 

Quote

what you want to accomplish

Massive question. I for sure want a sense of peace, flow, love and bliss. Furthermore, I’d like to put that almost superhuman state of mind to use, to help people in a worse state than I. To be a lighthouse in the night, so to speak. Purpose/dharma/to apply myself. Aaand truth be told, I wouldn’t mind some gratefulness in return. 
 

🤗❤️‍🔥

[Apech]

22 minutes ago, Surya said:

Mhm, well, you are right. While I have dabbled in meditation for a good time, consistently and sincerely I have not.

 

It has been more like a game of whack a mole. A thought a appears and than I start to thinking about thinking, and suddenly I am thinking about thinking about thinking. 
 

Thoughts are kind of a bizarre phenomenon, really. Why would I have to tell myself… anything at all? Is true meditation more about non-reactivity, not asscociating with the thoughts, and let the mind silence itself?

 

Not sure it has to be intellectual, but not convinced that the intellectual is neccesarily something to be avoided either. There is a time for both. But by far the greatest source of pain is, in my experience, the mind torturing the observer of mind with all sort nonsense, so maybe it is the key. 
 

Perhaps I should attempt meditation more sincerely. Would you then warn me against chanting as a way to silent the mind, and instead try to just sit?

 

_/\_
 

 

Massive question. I for sure want a sense of peace, flow, love and bliss. Furthermore, I’d like to put that almost superhuman state of mind to use, to help people in a worse state than I. To be a lighthouse in the night, so to speak. Purpose/dharma/to apply myself. Aaand truth be told, I wouldn’t mind some gratefulness in return. 
 

🤗❤️‍🔥

 
Generally speaking meditation is very badly taught.  No one should spend any time worrying about thoughts and certainly not trying to stop them.  You should focus on body in the first place - just settling and easing until it rests with a certain presence.

 

There’s more of course but a bit difficult to do it justice typing on my phone.

[BigSkyDiamond]

also, meditation does not have to be sitting still.

stillness can be cultivated in other ways.  for instance walking in nature.  or deeply absorbed in creative process.

daydreaming.  listening.

 

 

[Surya]

1 minute ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

also, meditation does not have to be sitting still.

stillness can be cultivated in other ways.  for instance walking in nature.  or deeply absorbed in creative process.

daydreaming.  listening.

 

 

Would like this twice if I could. 

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Won't bother with dropping practices and just allowing the mind to become still and seeing how things are from that perspective.

 

but for the over-active thinking mind, practices ARE needed and ARE useful.

It is not helpful to just tell someone to "become still."

just like it is not practical to bark at someone on the massage table to "just relax."

it comes across as impatient and judgey.

 

there are practices which help bring a person to stillness.

those practices are valid and valuable.

 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

. Anyone that cares can do it. Every student I have ever had finds they can... if they WANT to.

 

again, it is not helpfult to scold and chide anyone for not caring, not wanting to, not attaining what you think they should, in the way you think they should. it is not about you.  it is not one size fits all. and talking AT people comes across as patronizing.  That is my view. 

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Surya]

1 minute ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

but for the over-active thinking mind, practices ARE needed and ARE useful.

It is not helpful to just tell someone to "become still."

just like it is not practical to bark at someone on the massage table to "just relax."

it comes across as impatient and judgey.

 

there are practices which help bring a person to stillness.

those practices are valid and valuable.

 

 

 

again, it is not helpfult to scold and chide anyone for not caring, not wanting to, not attaining what you think they should, in the way you think they should. it is not about you.  it is not one size fits all. and talking AT people comes across as patronizing.  That is my view.

 

 

I appreciate the concern, and I agree that those things are not helpful, but I did not at any point feel stirling was doing so

[stirling]

 

39 minutes ago, Surya said:

It has been more like a game of whack a mole. A thought a appears and than I start to thinking about thinking, and suddenly I am thinking about thinking about thinking.

 

Yes, this is how it goes. Eventually you notice that there are gaps when the mind is still. At that point, my recommendation would be to start noticing those... becoming curious, but not grasping at them. When thoughts arise, do not engage them with a second thought, but rather just allow them to be as they are - a single thought arising and then fading into silence. Eventually you learn to identify with awareness rather than your thoughts, and can more reliably watch them pass with less effort.

 

39 minutes ago, Surya said:

Thoughts are kind of a bizarre phenomenon, really. Why would I have to tell myself… anything at all? Is true meditation more about non-reactivity, not asscociating with the thoughts, and let the mind silence itself?

 

Yes. The mind is actually that stillness... the thinking process of thought leading to thought leading to thought is because we feed the process. It is the engine by which "self" is generated. 

 

39 minutes ago, Surya said:

Not sure it has to be intellectual, but not convinced that the intellectual is neccesarily something to be avoided either. There is a time for both. But by far the greatest source of pain is, in my experience, the mind torturing the observer of mind with all sort nonsense, so maybe it is the key. 

 

The intellect is just a tool, is NOT the "self". It is fine when used for its purpose, but is generally not necessary. This is something you discover more and more the longer you meditate. 

 

39 minutes ago, Surya said:

Perhaps I should attempt meditation more sincerely. Would you then warn me against chanting as a way to silent the mind, and instead try to just sit?

 

Chanting, like watching the breath, is a way IN, not the meditation itself. It is fine to start out like that, but once you realize that your mind has become still and thoughts are not arising, allow the method to drop away. Have your intention be resting in the stillness, and watching as thoughts and other sensations just arise and pass from awareness.

 

39 minutes ago, Surya said:

Massive question. I for sure want a sense of peace, flow, love and bliss. Furthermore, I’d like to put that almost superhuman state of mind to use, to help people in a worse state than I. To be a lighthouse in the night, so to speak. Purpose/dharma/to apply myself. Aaand truth be told, I wouldn’t mind some gratefulness in return. 
 

🤗❤️‍🔥

 

All of that sounds like the way of a Bodhisattva! Gratefulness is generally in short supply, however.

 

 

[stirling]

16 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

also, meditation does not have to be sitting still.

stillness can be cultivated in other ways.  for instance walking in nature.  or deeply absorbed in creative process.

daydreaming.  listening.

 

The goal is really to bring stillness to ALL activities. It is easiest to start with sitting meditation, but a simple walking meditation would be next, or try chopping vegetables or hand washing dishes. Driving and walking in nature are also easy places to start. I have many of my student set a timer for every waking hour to remind them to stop and reestablish stillness for a few minutes. This eventually makes you start noticing that stillness establishes itself sometimes, which makes sense since it is always underneath the thinking mind.

[Surya]

5 minutes ago, stirling said:

Gratefulness is generally in short supply, however.

Well, you have mine 

[BigSkyDiamond]

3 minutes ago, stirling said:

 It is easiest to start with sitting meditation

No, it is not. For a whole lot of people it is the hardest. 

And it is certainly not a requirement.  ever.

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[stirling]

9 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

but for the over-active thinking mind, practices ARE needed and ARE useful.

It is not helpful to just tell someone to "become still."

just like it is not practical to bark at someone on the massage table to "just relax."

it comes across as impatient and judgey.

 

there are practices which help bring a person to stillness.

those practices are valid and valuable.

 

 

 

again, it is not helpfult to scold and chide anyone for not caring, not wanting to, not attaining what you think they should, in the way you think they should. it is not about you.  it is not one size fits all. and talking AT people comes across as patronizing.  That is my view.

 

I'm not sure who you are aiming this at, but I don't believe in, and haven't ever suggested anyone force anything. The actual intention is to allow, and approach with curiosity. The thinking mind naturally runs out of steam eventually.

 

There are some practices that people use to get INTO meditation, but they shouldn't be mistaken for the meditation itself. Think of them like crutches... when you can walk it is fine to set them aside. When you start to notice you have dropped watching your breath, for example, most will be upset that they lost count or focus. This is actually a signal to start being present in the spaciousness that opens up when the method has dropped. 

[stirling]

49 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

No, it is not. For a whole lot of people it is the hardest. 

And it is certainly not a requirement.  ever.

 

When I say easiest, what I mean is that the mind is more easily stilled in this position. This has been known for thousands of years, and is the reason it is featured in meditation practices in most Eastern traditions. It may be physically hard, but there are plenty of modifications that make it possible for most people. 

 

I don't believe I said it was a requirement. 

 

-

 

It seems like something I have done or said has made you take exception to me personally. I would welcome a personal message from you, if you would like to clear it up. _/\_

[liminal_luke]

7 hours ago, Surya said:

So we have discussed what brings us closer to it, does anyone want to shoot in on what drives us away from it? I guess we could call it «sin,» no?

 

Read this thread paying careful attention to your embodied experience: how do the various posts make you feel?  I think you´ll find the answer to your question.

[Cobie]

 

 

3 hours ago, Surya said:

… what is nothing? 

In the DDJ, ‘nothingness’ is the empty womb.

 

Sinologist Ellen M. Chen, “the Nothingness of Dao is the emptiness of the female womb.” (page 93, ‘In Praise of Nothing’, An exploration of Daoist Fundamental Ontology)

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Cobie

[Surya]

12 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

In the DDJ, ‘nothingness’ is the empty womb.

 

Sinologist Ellen M. Chen, “the Nothingness of Dao is the emptiness of the female womb.” (page 93, ‘In Praise of Nothing’, An exploration of Daoist Fundamental Ontology)

 

Alan Watts, “Nothingness is the womb... is the empty space which generates something."  (speaking in audio: "Form That Matters")

 

 

Thank you. Nothingness is kind of a tricky concept for me, as... nothing is... nothing. I once heard some fellow say nothing = everything. I didnt understand it, nor do I belive it is very relevant. But I wonder, could nothingness in the DDJ school be compared to the western concept of aether or the vedic akasha?

As always, I have no clue what I am talking about, but maybe someone better versed in these traditions can clarify.

 

50 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Read this thread paying careful attention to your embodied experience: how do the various posts make you feel?  I think you´ll find the answer to your question.

Intruiging post @illuminated_luke, but in order to reread with carefull attention, ill have to do as you do with the garage: do it tommorow. 

 

[Cobie]

 

7 minutes ago, Surya said:

.. compared to the western concept of aether or the vedic akasha? … maybe someone better versed in these traditions can clarify.

 

I think that would be @Nungali 

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Surya said:

Nothingness is kind of a tricky concept for me, as... nothing is... nothing. I once heard some fellow say nothing = everything. I didnt understand it, nor do I belive it is very relevant. 

 

there is a Latin phrase "creation ex nihilo" which translates to "creation from nothing."   In Hebrew it is yesh m'ayin "something from nothing."

 

The creation of every "thing" (all the objects, all the things, the universe and everything in it) comes from a Source that is itself not a "thing."    Source has no form, no shape, it does not take up any space, it is not bound by time or space or form, it has no beginning and no end, it always was and always will be.  Source (which is not a thing, it is a no-thing) creates, or is back of, or gives rise to everything (all the things, the Universe and everything in it).

 

So there is a difference between "nothing" which indicates an utter absence.

and the no-thing that is Source.  which is very much a powerful presence

 

Edited 2 hours ago by BigSkyDiamond

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

there are practices which help bring a person to stillness.

 

What new faculties appear in the stillness?

 

Is there a trans-human level that can work when the humanness is still?

 

Is there a hint in the Tree of Life fitting so nicely on the human format?

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Surya said:

Won’t bother with what exactly? With this:

 

Don’t get me wrong, I realize I might sound like a smartass, but I don’t: I just want to say that in my experience, at this point of life and in this environment, this kind of philosophy or practice of non-doing (which again strikes me as a little bit of a paradox) doesn’t resonate with me. 
 

Not to be taken as an attack, I have no doubt of its validity to you and countless others, but for me it is.. idk, I do not get it. As I’ve mentioned earlier, the distinguishing between attatchment and detatchment seemed depressing. Reason being, if I am not attatched to events or people in any way what so ever, it seems to me like life becomes meaningless and all beauty disappear. Why would I care about you or anything if I did not feel the slightest sense of attatchment? A mindset I found way more useful, was that of love vs. lust. If you love people, you want what’s best for them. If you feel lust, you want what’s best for you (from them). 
 

Continuing, I don’t have the slightest doubt that meditation can do wonders for loads and loads of people. For me tho, my experience is that it doesn’t help. What does help, in my experience, is stuff like communal practice, service, limiting distractions, nature, what have you. 
 

Again, with all due respect, for me personally that text just appears as a giant paradox. I’m sure it is of great value for many, buuuut… I also think it is a little bit odd to say «this is the way,» and than say with a bunch of words that you shouldn’t say anything and that you do non-doing. If I could just turn the inner chatter off, I would, but at this point, I don’t think I can. 

And apologies in advance if I butchered the entire philosophy, I’d be happy to be corrected.

 

How about this ;  developing an inner stillness and 'non - separateness '   ( like Sterling mentioned )  that allows a better enactment of all the external stuff ( like you just mentioned ) ? 

 

I am thinking of things like when I could  enter a sword match , maintain 'clear blue sky'  in the mind,  have an inner stillness , blend with 'everything' , yet still do well with all the 'complex activity' involved . Someone that does not have that ,  you can 'feel' it  , it feels fractured, 'all over the place ' , uncertain .... and then they are bound to make a bad mistake .

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

I agree. 

 

信 心 銘 (xin4 xin1 ming2) precious words from the heart

 

 

I agree  the five aggregates are not the ‘self’ 
 

 

definitely

 

That’s what I notice with the DDJ too. Imo the DDJ is simple and down-to-earth, good advice for living life.

But people seem to only be interested in the most bizarre and obscure translations, where they can make anything of it  (e.g. that it’s a code for top secret esoteric practices).

 

 

 

I like your 'bookish learning '    -  its helpful    

 

However it does distract from our bizarre and obscure  understandings -  where we can make whatever we want out of it .      

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

I agree. 

 

信 心 銘 (xin4 xin1 ming2) precious words from the heart

 

 

I agree  the five aggregates are not the ‘self’ 
 

 

definitely

 

That’s what I notice with the DDJ too. Imo the DDJ is simple and down-to-earth, good advice for living life.

But people seem to only be interested in the most bizarre and obscure translations, where they can make anything of it  (e.g. that it’s a code for top secret esoteric practices).

 

 

 

I like your 'bookish learning '    -  its helpful    

 

However it does distract from our bizarre and obscure  understandings -  where we can make whatever we want out of it .      

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The goal is really to bring stillness to ALL activities. It is easiest to start with sitting meditation, but a simple walking meditation would be next, or try chopping vegetables or hand washing dishes. Driving and walking in nature are also easy places to start. I have many of my student set a timer for every waking hour to remind them to stop and reestablish stillness for a few minutes. This eventually makes you start noticing that stillness establishes itself sometimes, which makes sense since it is always underneath the thinking mind.

 

'They' did this to me     :  

 

1 ;   Sit in seiza , maintain your one point and have an empty mind .      .......... ( timeless pause )  .

 

" Okay, now stand up and come over here ........ right, now you are here .... did you do all that while maintaining your one point and  empty mind ? " 

 

Damn !   " Back you go , stage 1 . "   Again .  Maintained .   " Now do the exercises - did you do all that  with ....... ?"

 

Damn !  Back to stage 1 .   Rise , go over, exercises , take up the sword , practice cuts 1 - 3  .... " Did you maintain ..... ? 

 

Damn !  Back to stage 1 ..... and so on , until one gets to the stage where they charge at you with live sharp katana, screaming, and stop the cut a fraction in front of your face  .... " Did you still maintain  ......  ?" 

 

Then its empty hand practice , taking the sword off them while they attack  ( switch to wooden sword for safety )  all the above , plus blending with the attack, taking the sword , while maintaining empty mind, one point , 'composure '  and being 'at peace '. 

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The goal is really to bring stillness to ALL activities. It is easiest to start with sitting meditation, but a simple walking meditation would be next, or try chopping vegetables or hand washing dishes. Driving and walking in nature are also easy places to start. I have many of my student set a timer for every waking hour to remind them to stop and reestablish stillness for a few minutes. This eventually makes you start noticing that stillness establishes itself sometimes, which makes sense since it is always underneath the thinking mind.

 

One of the practices I am allowed to know about  (  as its a woman's tradition , men's and women's 'business'  -  secret indigenous teaching - are supposed to be kept secret and apart here ) with my woman friend , who is a Gurudjigen  (medicinal  plant knowledge  gatherer, preparer , prescriber, etc - 'medicine woman ' ) involves at least an hour a day in the morning 'sitting' . Especially before going out gathering . 

 

Another thing with 'stillness'  ... nature or even 'the natural clock' seems to practice it .   A few times at home ,  when someone is present I will ;   "  Stop for a moment ... do you hear and feel that ?"

 

"What ?"

 

" Nothing ! .... at this moment ,  no sound .... no wind , no human noises intruding , no birds , the insects have stopped making a noise ...........   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

........   then it starts up again .  

 

And the plants respond as well , during the still time  the stomata in plants closes , and opens when the noise starts up again . 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Surya said:

I appreciate the concern, and I agree that those things are not helpful, but I did not at any point feel stirling was doing so

 

he sometimes seems 'over protective '   about certain people  and conversely seems  to exaggerate  others assertions into aggression . 

 

besides ... your the type that can handle a good   slap  !         ( just keep a still mind about it    ) 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

When I say easiest, what I mean is that the mind is more easily stilled in this position. This has been known for thousands of years, and is the reason it is featured in meditation practices in most Eastern traditions. It may be physically hard, but there are plenty of modifications that make it possible for most people. 

 

I don't believe I said it was a requirement. 

 

-

 

It seems like something I have done or said has made you take exception to me personally. I would welcome a personal message from you, if you would like to clear it up. _/\_

 

 

Not just you Sterling .... check his  posts and responses   ( and then  the way he 'likes' )    

 

What and who gets his positive feedback is 'interesting' too .  

 

_  Thanks for your contributions here