Eliminating desire

[Cadcam]

As a person begins to retract from wanting, one of the first things to go is lust. In order for this to subside, one must be free from the draw of beauty. When beauty dies, so too does the preference for it over things that are not beautiful to a person. This can lead in all sorts of directions.

 

For myself, I find that I am no longer compassionate,  I do not have the empathy I once did. It takes a lot for me to be moved by either beauty or suffering. I find that life plays out like a movie that I have no attachment to: I'm just viewing it and not moved by it. This liberation can lead to negative behavior.

[Keith108]

This is just my 2 cents.

 

A lack of compassion and empathy is a sign of directionless practice. It's a kind of practice sickness that, as the OP noted, can lead to negative behavior. 

 

This is actually something I struggle with personally sometimes. With just a wave of hand and "it's all samsara", it becomes easy to not give shit. After practice last night, while reciting the Four Great Vows, I noticed I paid a little more attention to it than usual. Not sure why. It's a good reminder for what and for whom we practice. 

 

Anyway, ymmv.

 

_/}\_

 

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, Cadcam said:

 

As a person begins to retract from wanting, one of the first things to go is lust. In order for this to subside, one must be free from the draw of beauty. When beauty dies, so too does the preference for it over things that are not beautiful to a person. This can lead in all sorts of directions.

 

For myself, I find that I am no longer compassionate,  I do not have the empathy I once did. It takes a lot for me to be moved by either beauty or suffering. I find that life plays out like a movie that I have no attachment to: I'm just viewing it and not moved by it. This liberation can lead to negative behavior.
 

 

 

 …I know not of any other single thing of such power to cause the arising of sensual lust, if not already arisen, or, if arisen, to cause its more-becoming and increase, as the feature of beauty (in things).

 

In (one) who pays not systematic attention to the feature of beauty, sensual lust, if not already arisen, arises: or, if already arisen, is liable to more-becoming and increase. …I know not of any other single thing of such power to prevent the arising of sensual lust, if not already arisen: or, if arisen, to cause its abandonment, as the feature of ugliness (in things). In (one) who gives systematic attention to the feature of ugliness (in things) sensual lust, if not already arisen, arises not: or, if arisen, it is abandoned.

 

(AN 1.11, 1.12, tr. Pali Text Society vol I pp 2-3)

 

On the other hand:

 

So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof. Now at that time the Buddha spoke in many ways to the mendicants about the meditation on ugliness. He praised the meditation on ugliness and its development.

 

Then the Buddha said to the mendicants, “Mendicants, I wish to go on retreat for a fortnight. No-one should approach me, except for the one who brings my almsfood.”

 

“Yes, sir,” replied those mendicants. And no-one approached him, except for the one who brought the almsfood.

Then those mendicants thought, “The Buddha spoke in many ways about the meditation on ugliness. He praised the meditation on ugliness and its development.” They committed themselves to developing the many different facets of the meditation on ugliness. Becoming horrified, repelled, and disgusted with this body, they looked for a suicide weapon. Each day ten, twenty, or thirty mendicants committed suicide.

 

Then after a fortnight had passed, the Buddha came out of retreat and addressed Ānanda, “Ānanda, why does the mendicant Saṅgha seem so diminished?”

 

Ānanda told the Buddha all that had happened, and said, “Sir, please explain another way for the mendicant Saṅgha to get enlightened.”

 

“Well then, Ānanda, gather all the mendicants staying in the vicinity of Vesālī together in the assembly hall.”

“Yes, sir,” replied Ānanda. He did what the Buddha asked, went up to him, and said, “Sir, the mendicant Saṅgha has assembled. Please, sir, come at your convenience.”

 

Then the Buddha went to the assembly hall, sat down on the seat spread out, and addressed the mendicants:

 

“Mendicants, when this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated it’s peaceful and sublime, a deliciously pleasant meditation. And it disperses and settles unskillful qualities on the spot whenever they arise.

 

In the last month of summer, when the dust and dirt is stirred up, a large sudden storm disperses and settles it on the spot.

 

In the same way, when this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated it’s peaceful and sublime, a deliciously pleasant meditation. And it disperses and settles unskillful qualities on the spot whenever they arise. And how is it so developed and cultivated?

 

It’s when a mendicant—gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut—sits down cross-legged, sets their body straight, and establishes mindfulness in their presence.

(SN 54.9, tr. Sujato)
 

 

Gautama goes on to explain what he means by mindfulness, in the context above. I have summarized that mindfulness:

 

1) Relax the activity of the body, in inhalation and exhalation;

 

2) Find a feeling of ease and calm the senses connected with balance, in inhalation and exhalation;

 

3) Appreciate and detach from thought, in inhalation and exhalation;

 

4) Look to the free location of consciousness for the automatic activity of the body, in inhalation and exhalation.

 

(Applying the Pali Instructions, edited)

 

 

You might try that.

 

 

Edited May 15 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

 

Btw, suicide is a form of murder...unless under an advanced incurable disease and one has settled their worldly affairs as best as possible, otherwise it probably incurrs a great weight of dark karma...so I'd say that the monks that did so were overly impressionable,  misled or misinterpreting to the max!

 

Btw, #2 mental/spiritual apathy or indifference are not a virtues but a slippery slope that has nothing to do with Buddha nature or enlightenment!  (which is said to be the "Wonder of wonders" by the historic Buddha)

 

Edited May 17 by old3bob

[old3bob]

 

 

I'd also say that the desire for freedom is also the desire for enlightenment and are not to be negated with forms of profound sounding nihilism.

 

[doc benway]

On 5/15/2025 at 8:49 AM, Cadcam said:

As a person begins to retract from wanting, one of the first things to go is lust. In order for this to subside, one must be free from the draw of beauty. When beauty dies, so too does the preference for it over things that are not beautiful to a person. This can lead in all sorts of directions.

 

For myself, I find that I am no longer compassionate,  I do not have the empathy I once did. It takes a lot for me to be moved by either beauty or suffering. I find that life plays out like a movie that I have no attachment to: I'm just viewing it and not moved by it. This liberation can lead to negative behavior.

 

I would question whether what you describe is liberation, at least in the Buddhist sense.

Liberation is the end of ignorance of our true nature.

Even a small taste of that true nature gives birth to empathy and compassion of an indescribable degree. 

[thelerner]

I've always thought Dharma speeches are the third 'leg' of practice.  They can be about any aspect of practice and life but many are about compassion.  Cultivation can easily, perhaps at times necessarily fall into isolation and selfishness.  Listening to a great teacher talk about compassion helps break us out of it.  

 

In Shamanic cultures when there is sickness the Shaman might tell the person a story.  In listening they improve.. at least their spirit does.  Tech makes it easy to collect great dharma speeches, to have them on hand just as we would pills in a medicine cabinet.  

 

Maybe one day I'll make some.  They'd begin- 'If this is emergency, call 911.  Otherwise, shut up and listen..'

[Sanity Check]

Its not about beauty or desire.

 

Rather standards.

 

Having witnessed enough smart and talented people piss away their own best assets.

 

Standards and expectations for fellow sheeple decline significantly.

 

[Tommy]

I am sorry. I am probably wrong in my assessment of the practice that leads to a wider understanding of the nature of our world. But, the practice is not to eliminate thought . Rather to disassociate the awareness from the thoughts. To stop from identifying with thoughts. That the four noble truths talks about the path to liberation from suffering. Not eliminating suffering. One isn't suppose to eliminate desire. Rather, it is to remove the attachment to desires and to not cling to the desire. This way, love and compassion remain viable.

 

The Buddha, even after his enlightenment, chose to teach the path to liberation from suffering to others. And to not harm living beings due to his compassion. So, if one's practice is leading one away from love and compassion then wisdom is lost. Again sorry for my narrow point of view.

 

Note: One shouldn't lose the appreciation for beauty.

Edited May 17 by Tommy

[Cadcam]

Well, I've been through hell and have seen that God, or whoever, is capable of manipulating reality. In this time of torment I have investigated my life, my past, and my desires, and I've come to a point where I don't see much to want or to say. Life for me is pretty quiet, I would say boring, but I really don't want to do anything,  so it's not a bore, it's just sterile. 

[stirling]

No-one manipulates reality. It is just this moment, as it is, where you are. If you find that you have lost joy, and beauty, and life is stale you might be lost in nihilism. If you are a Buddhist practitioner I would suggest getting some training in bodhicitta ASAP. Seek out a teacher if you can, or an easy place to start might be with Norman Fischer's version of the Tibetan Lojong teachings, "Training in Compassion". 

 

Also worth a try, this deceptively simple "metta" training: Put on a smile and as go about your day in the world acknowledge each person you encounter and wish each being (or even objects you touch or use) happiness and freedom from suffering. See if you can be thankful for their presence. With this thought, send a warm kind light from the center of your chest in each encounter. Do this as often as possible and see how your life shifts.

 

My sincere hopes for your re-realization of the beauty, loving kindness, and bliss of all appearances. _/\_

[Mark Foote]

On 5/22/2025 at 3:43 PM, Cadcam said:

Well, I've been through hell and have seen that God, or whoever, is capable of manipulating reality. In this time of torment I have investigated my life, my past, and my desires, and I've come to a point where I don't see much to want or to say. Life for me is pretty quiet, I would say boring, but I really don't want to do anything,  so it's not a bore, it's just sterile. 
 

Careful what you wish for?

 

Like the Chinese say, it's a curse to be born in interesting times.

 

[Mark Foote]

On 5/22/2025 at 4:16 PM, stirling said:

... Put on a smile and as go about your day in the world acknowledge each person you encounter and wish each being (or even objects you touch or use) happiness and freedom from suffering. See if you can be thankful for their presence. With this thought, send a warm kind light from the center of your chest in each encounter. Do this as often as possible and see how your life shifts.
 

 

 

Michael Caine as the Buddha:
 

 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Michael Caine as the Buddha:
 

 

 

 

One kind act can transform the universe.

[Annnon]

On 15/05/2025 at 7:54 PM, old3bob said:

 

Btw, suicide is a form of murder...unless under an advanced incurable disease and one has settled their worldly affairs as best as possible, otherwise it probably incurrs a great weight of dark karma...so I'd say that the monks that did so were overly impressionable,  misled or misinterpreting to the max!

 

Btw, #2 mental/spiritual apathy or indifference are not a virtues but a slippery slope that has nothing to do with Buddha nature or enlightenment!  (which is said to be the "Wonder of wonders" by the historic Buddha)

 

How does this "karma thing" works? I've seen people saying that it's not something mystical like that, I still don't get it lmao

So if I do bad things in this life, I will pay in my next life?

But if this doesn't exist, or if it doesn't work the way we think it does, so one can do harm to others and never pay the "justice from the universe" unless he got caught and judged by the law of man? So what's the point? I'll just throw my car into a bus and never face any karmic consequences in this nor in the next life. My "karma" will be being caught by law and going to jail. So karma is nothing mystical as we think? I'm not sure if I made myself clear but maybe you could understand my point.

 

EDIT: So in other words, do we face consequences beyond the law of man or we are just random things doing random things in this world? If I throw my car into a bus and kill xx number of people, will I face any consequences bsesides the "worldly" ones? If so, how can you prove me karma does exist, what did you learn that who is your spiritual teacher, or there's nothing magical to it and karma is just nothing mystical, no "judgement from god" or "judgement from the universe

 

EDIT2: damn I'll make this a new post

Edited May 25 by Annnon

[Cadcam]

I don't think I'm lost in nihilism deliberately,  this all just evolved partly from thinking, but mostly from my physical state. 

 

Everything is flat. I don't emotionally respond, I don't intellectually respond. I hear and understand, but have nothing to contribute.  There is no joy, there is no lust. It is quiet and sterile, and I have to sit like this because trying to come out of it creates suffering. 

[ChunMaya]

3 hours ago, Cadcam said:

I don't think I'm lost in nihilism deliberately,  this all just evolved partly from thinking, but mostly from my physical state. 

 

Everything is flat. I don't emotionally respond, I don't intellectually respond. I hear and understand, but have nothing to contribute.  There is no joy, there is no lust. It is quiet and sterile, and I have to sit like this because trying to come out of it creates suffering. 

It sounds like what you're experiencing is apathy. This flattened emotional state often arises from a few core issues:

• The suppression or removal of desire.

• A contracted sense of self. You may still feel like a separate, isolated identity—cut off from the flow of existence. When experience is filtered through that separation, everything feels distant and sterile.

If there’s no joy, it simply means something is still blocking it. Joy is your natural state. Its absence signals that something unconscious is in the way—but you’re not yet aware of what that is. It’s not about forcing or chasing joy. It’s about clearing the internal clutter that veils it.

 

Joy surfaces on its own when the interference is gone.

 

Think of it like this: if you’re searching for a needle in a haystack, you don’t need to force anything—you just need to burn away the hay. That “hay” is your accumulated tension, narratives, resistance, and noise. The more you rest in pure being—without trying to fix, analyze, or achieve—the more the unconscious begins to dissolve.

 

Most people get stuck in this flat state because their awareness hasn’t yet penetrated the deeper layers of the unconscious—desires, motives, fears. You have to become aware of what lies outside your current awareness to uncover the blocks and burn through them.

 

Don’t try to observe the unconscious. Just be. Let awareness do the work. The reason I say “just be” is because any instruction that uses a verb tends to make people do something—when the real point is to stop doing entirely. Even a phrase like “pay attention” subtly encourages effort.

 

Do nothing. Just be. And let awareness simmer. Joy will resurface at some point.

Edited May 29 by ChunMaya

[Cadcam]

I definitely feel cut off from the flow of existence.  I have no impulse to desire. It is apathy that I feel. When I think, I wind up in entropy.  

 

I'm not moved by things. Neither beauty nor suffering.  Every response I give is methodical.

 

It's my head, you see. There are these wires of energy that tie my thoughts down. 

[ChunMaya]

6 minutes ago, Cadcam said:

I definitely feel cut off from the flow of existence.  I have no impulse to desire. It is apathy that I feel. When I think, I wind up in entropy.  

 

I'm not moved by things. Neither beauty nor suffering.  Every response I give is methodical.

 

It's my head, you see. There are these wires of energy that tie my thoughts down. 

 

Thanks for the honest reply—what you're describing is textbook energetic and psychological suppression. Apathy isn't emptiness. It's blockage. When you're not moved by beauty or suffering, it's because something is binding your internal responsiveness—your capacity to feel.
 

That image you gave—“wires of energy that tie my thoughts down”—is your nervous system trying to describe an internal restraint. Whether it's emotional trauma, cognitive overregulation, or energetic congestion, the result is the same: a kind of mental suffocation.
 

Here’s something worth sitting with:

If your thoughts are tied down, then who—or what—is doing the tying?
And equally:
Who is noticing it?

Don’t chase answers. Just let those questions simmer and see what rises. Often, the thing doing the tying is a layer of the self that’s outside of your current awareness and afraid of vulnerability—afraid of desire, afraid of being moved.
 

And remember—not wanting is still a form of desire. Apathy is often the surface mask for something deeper that wants to stay hidden.

[Cadcam]

I have always been one who thinks first, and then feels a response. I wonder if that is common.

 

Who or what, those are good questions.  I was meditating one day many years ago, thinking that the world was order. It suddenly occurred to me that no! it was chaos! Then my head cracked open and I had a vision of a being on a throne that spoke. Then my awareness flipped sideways and it felt like something was implanted in my lower right brain below my ear. Eventually it felt like wires were inserted and over the years have overtaken my brain and body, leaving me now in this static, non thinking condition.

[Tommy]

9 hours ago, Cadcam said:

I have always been one who thinks first, and then feels a response. I wonder if that is common.

 

Who or what, those are good questions.  I was meditating one day many years ago, thinking that the world was order. It suddenly occurred to me that no! it was chaos! Then my head cracked open and I had a vision of a being on a throne that spoke. Then my awareness flipped sideways and it felt like something was implanted in my lower right brain below my ear. Eventually it felt like wires were inserted and over the years have overtaken my brain and body, leaving me now in this static, non thinking condition.

For me, it was feeling first then acting upon such feelings without thought. Now, it has changed over the years. I let things happen and look at myself reacting. Wondering if this is the right thing to do. Of course, it is subjective to who is looking and what direction.

 

I have not had the feeling of wires being implanted. But, I have had a moment where thought seemed to shut down. I did not particularly enjoy that moment and have not had such things happen again. So, to me, even though I wish for enlightenment, I have no wish to change my present condition. I only wish to better my understanding. More of the journey rather than the destination.

 

Non thinking condition? One still needs to think to plan and do things. Decide a course of action and then act upon such notions. Life doesn't go away.

[Jenn]

13 hours ago, Cadcam said:

I have always been one who thinks first, and then feels a response. I wonder if that is common.

 

Do you mean that you don't feel things in the moment they happen, but only later after you think about them? That is not that unheard of, and it is pretty common among people with Asperger's (but not limited to people with aspergers, you can have this without having aspergers), I have the same quirk. Have you always experienced that (even as a child)? If so, I might have an idea why you feel so stuck and apathetic, a lot of the other things you describe in this post would make sense if that is the dynamic you have with emotion.

 

The brain can get you into a weird feedback loop when the source of positive (or negative) emotions is not tied to the time you experience those emotions and the chemical release (like dopamine and serotonin). You can end up with all your motivation going into something that does not provide any positive feedback because your brain can't make the connection between the actual trigger event and the emotion you later feel from it. This causes you to be stuck in a limbo state and overtime this misalignment can isolate you, and eventually deaden your feelings and thoughts completely, often as your bodies way of protecting you when it can't find ways to experience feel emotions - your mind can often find some way (maladjusted or not) to cope with all positive or all negative emotions, but the mind cannot cope with nothingness. I can explain more or offer some suggestions of things that might help if this might be what you are experiencing.

[Cadcam]

When I was a youngster (under 20), I suppressed my emotional responses to other people and their actions. As I matured, I started to look at people's lips to understand them, rather than look them in they eye as we spoke. Idk, I just don't knee jerk react, I think about things first.

[Jenn]

1 hour ago, Cadcam said:

When I was a youngster (under 20), I suppressed my emotional responses to other people and their actions. As I matured, I started to look at people's lips to understand them, rather than look them in they eye as we spoke. Idk, I just don't knee jerk react, I think about things first.

 

Ah ok, that does sound different, probably what I am thinking of won't be applicable if it was from a conscious decision to not react to others.

[Cadcam]

I think at some point initially it was deliberate but that was a long time ago. Now I just don't know what to say, or how to respond.  I listen and understand,  but have no reply.