Is this proper Chen style or more of a show form?

[markern]

I have seen people say that this form isn't proper Chen style but a form made more just to look cool. Is that true or is it genuine Chen style? It sure looks good though. I want to learn it regardless. I just wanna move like that. But it would be interesting to know if it is a proper form or not.



 

 

[Taomeow]

Actually yes, it is a simplified form based on the classical Chen forms (Laojia Yilu and Erlu), but it's a recent addition to the Chen arsenal, developed by members of the Chen family in 1983.  Unlike the Yang style 24 form, which was commissioned by the Chinese Sports Committee in 1956 for mass exercise, the Chen 24 form was designed to introduce the basic "alphabet" of Chen taiji while maintaining its martial and health benefits.  You can think of it as "CliffsNotes" of sorts to the real deal.  

Edited May 4 by Taomeow

[markern]

On 4.5.2025 at 3:50 PM, Taomeow said:

Actually yes, it is a simplified form based on the classical Chen forms (Laojia Yilu and Erlu), but it's a recent addition to the Chen arsenal, developed by members of the Chen family in 1983.  Unlike the Yang style 24 form, which was commissioned by the Chinese Sports Committee in 1956 for mass exercise, the Chen 24 form was designed to introduce the basic "alphabet" of Chen taiji while maintaining its martial and health benefits.  You can think of it as "CliffsNotes" of sorts to the real deal.  

Thanks. That is very useful to know:)

[Gerard]

Well that's Chen as opposed to the more internally focused and slow paced Yang TJQ.

 

Chen Xiaowang also created the 16 form for busy people or beginners to get their feet wet before embarking on longer and more demanding forms:

 

 

 

 

[markern]

14 hours ago, Gerard said:

Well that's Chen as opposed to the more internally focused and slow paced Yang TJQ.

 

Chen Xiaowang also created the 16 form for busy people or beginners to get their feet wet before embarking on longer and more demanding forms:

 

 

 

 

Thanks. Very useful. I might want to learn that. Any ideas for online tutorials or courses for learning Chen style? I think there may only be Yang style available where I live. Will start a yang style class after the summer I think but want to experiment with Chen on my own. 

[Gerard]

It's going to be difficult to impossible to learn an IMA online. There are way too many subtleties to the art that are easily missed. You won't go deep enough, I'm afraid.

 

But by having said that, you can get by and get benefits by starting a beginner's form. 
 

Zhu Tiancai, one of the four tigers of Chen TJQ, *New Frame 13 is a good start. YT and DVD:

 

 

 

English subs and fully explained set.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/396206069330
 

Hope this helps.
 

 

*Form breakdown:

 

https://chen-taiji.com/13-postures/

 

 

Edited May 9 by Gerard

[markern]

On 9.5.2025 at 3:40 AM, Gerard said:

It's going to be difficult to impossible to learn an IMA online. There are way too many subtleties to the art that are easily missed. You won't go deep enough, I'm afraid.

 

But by having said that, you can get by and get benefits by starting a beginner's form. 
 

Zhu Tiancai, one of the four tigers of Chen TJQ, *New Frame 13 is a good start. YT and DVD:

 

 

 

English subs and fully explained set.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/396206069330
 

Hope this helps.
 

 

*Form breakdown:

 

https://chen-taiji.com/13-postures/

 

 

Sure, I am not expecting to get deep or good without a live teacher. But think I would enjoy it and benefit from it still. I will also be learning Yang style in a weekly in person class and expect that to help. lot. 

[Taomeow]

On 5/12/2025 at 11:12 PM, markern said:

Sure, I am not expecting to get deep or good without a live teacher. But think I would enjoy it and benefit from it still. I will also be learning Yang style in a weekly in person class and expect that to help. lot. 

 

FWIW: If you're going to be getting in-person classes in Yang, I'd stick with that for a while before branching out into Chen.  I'd focus on the basics (which are shared in all styles) -- if you learn alignments/centeredness, weight transfer, rooting/stable connection to the ground, silk reeling, yao/kua engagement, sung, yi (intent) and eventually some qi management, you'll be ready for Chen and able to compare which works better for you personally.  But if you choose to give it a try from a video (which I usually don't find useful for beginners...  but who am I to blow against the wind), my advice No.1 is, make sure you know exactly what you're doing with your knees before you do!     

[Gerard]

On 13/5/2025 at 4:12 PM, markern said:

I will also be learning Yang style in a weekly in person class and expect that to help. lot. 

Either Yang or Chen but not both. They are vastly different even if they fall under the flag of TJQ.

 

For example:

 

 

And that's fast. More conservative Yang lineages move half that speed which is unconceivable in Chen. 

 

Edited May 17 by Gerard

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, Gerard said:

 More conservative Yang lineages move half that speed which is unconceivable in Chen. 

 

 

My teacher used to torture me (in private lessons) by making me slow down the first main Chen form (laojia yilu) which at normal practice pace takes about 15-17 minutes to complete down to 45 minutes.  Boy is it hard!  Also another form of torture -- "square taiji" practice, where instead of flowing from one move into the next you have to stop and hold every single position after every single move "long enough to take a picture."  Once you're frozen like that, anything you're doing wrong will become apparent and fixable.  At a faster pace you might never find out, never notice, just rush through the mistake or difficulty instead of "spell-checking" and correcting.

  

This, by the way, is the reason the second main Chen form (laojia erlu aka Paochui aka Cannon Fist), which is indeed physically  impossible to slow down in many places, is strongly discouraged by real masters from learning before you have the first one down pat.  Otherwise it will be a fully external athletic performance, with whatever disadvantages come with any sports territory and without the advantages of actually doing taiji.

[Master Logray]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

My teacher used to torture me (in private lessons) by making me slow down the first main Chen form (laojia yilu) which at normal practice pace takes about 15-17 minutes to complete down to 45 minutes.  Boy is it hard!  Also another form of torture -- "square taiji" practice, where instead of flowing from one move into the next you have to stop and hold every single position after every single move "long enough to take a picture."  Once you're frozen like that, anything you're doing wrong will become apparent and fixable.  At a faster pace you might never find out, never notice, just rush through the mistake or difficulty instead of "spell-checking" and correcting.

  

This, by the way, is the reason the second main Chen form (laojia erlu aka Paochui aka Cannon Fist), which is indeed physically  impossible to slow down in many places, is strongly discouraged by real masters from learning before you have the first one down pat.  Otherwise it will be a fully external athletic performance, with whatever disadvantages come with any sports territory and without the advantages of actually doing taiji.

 

 

Wu Style is like this, look like a form of break dance, stopping on every position, adjust your posture/CG, (or wait for the teacher to adjust student by student which takes forever), only then can proceed to the following position/movement.   A normal 108 moves style would take 40 minutes or longer for 119 styles.   The advantages are many, it is easy to spot the error and correct them.  The student learns the intricacies of inner movements, position of tendons and bones;  and really goes into the "inner arts" or Chi or Neigong.  Each of the stopping position can be a stance.  Such training method cannot be "moving meditation".

 

Yang Style is smooth and non-stopping so cannot achieve the above without a lot of ancillary exercises.   Students are full of incorrect positions and understandings but these can be hide out in the faster non-stop movements.    Yet Yang Style is great in appearance, can merge with dance and great for physical performances.   When you do Yang Style, it is freedom and invigorating yet peaceful and calming, going into the flow easily.  while Wu Style is more of a torture in comparison.

 

In the old days the real Taichi masters and students would not have these distinctions, as they went through all steps in the system for a life span.  In the current time, when a normal student is doing part of a big system, the difference is pronounced.

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

Wu Style is like this, look like a form of break dance, stopping on every position, adjust your posture/CG, (or wait for the teacher to adjust student by student which takes forever), only then can proceed to the following position/movement.   A normal 108 moves style would take 40 minutes or longer for 119 styles.   The advantages are many, it is easy to spot the error and correct them.  The student learns the intricacies of inner movements, position of tendons and bones;  and really goes into the "inner arts" or Chi or Neigong.  Each of the stopping position can be a stance.  Such training method cannot be "moving meditation".

 

Yang Style is smooth and non-stopping so cannot achieve the above without a lot of ancillary exercises.   Students are full of incorrect positions and understandings but these can be hide out in the faster non-stop movements.    Yet Yang Style is great in appearance, can merge with dance and great for physical performances.   When you do Yang Style, it is freedom and invigorating yet peaceful and calming, going into the flow easily.  while Wu Style is more of a torture in comparison.

 

In the old days the real Taichi masters and students would not have these distinctions, as they went through all steps in the system for a life span.  In the current time, when a normal student is doing part of a big system, the difference is pronounced.

 

The speed/pace is not actually contingent on the style.  There's different speeds at which you can (or should I say must) perform the form in each style:

1)the ordinary  teaching/learning pace, which is medium; 2)fast -- which serves various purposes for those who have mastered the medium pace, this should not be used for beginners; 3)extra slow, for advanced students and serious practitioners.  

 

Then when practicing, each of them in its turn can (or should I say should) be done in 3 modes of execution.  You do the form at medium pace three times -- first to review/overview; second time with emphasis on lightness and flow -- as a disembodied spirit, a cloud floating in the sky; third time with deliberate martial intent, making sure you understand what every move is actually for in a fight, "shadow boxing."  And then you can throw in more challenges if you're ready -- like the "square taiji" I mentioned earlier.  All these can be done at any speed -- provided the speed is chosen appropriately for one's current level of mastery.

 

"Moving meditation" is just a catchy word combo.  A really complex taiji-specific focus on many things all at once has some things in common with meditation but more things that should be called something else.  (E.g. taiji neigong -- which starts at some point at a high enough level.)  

[Master Logray]

47 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

The speed/pace is not actually contingent on the style.  There's different speeds at which you can (or should I say must) perform the form in each style:

1)the ordinary  teaching/learning pace, which is medium; 2)fast -- which serves various purposes for those who have mastered the medium pace, this should not be used for beginners; 3)extra slow, for advanced students and serious practitioners.  

 

Then when practicing, each of them in its turn can (or should I say should) be done in 3 modes of execution.  You do the form at medium pace three times -- first to review/overview; second time with emphasis on lightness and flow -- as a disembodied spirit, a cloud floating in the sky; third time with deliberate martial intent, making sure you understand what every move is actually for in a fight, "shadow boxing."  And then you can throw in more challenges if you're ready -- like the "square taiji" I mentioned earlier.  All these can be done at any speed -- provided the speed is chosen appropriately for one's current level of mastery.

 

"Moving meditation" is just a catchy word combo.  A really complex taiji-specific focus on many things all at once has some things in common with meditation but more things that should be called something else.  (E.g. taiji neigong -- which starts at some point at a high enough level.)  

 

 

Indeed, almost everything is in medium speed.  For the Square/Step by step Taichi, the overall speed could be very long, the movements conducted are not too slow, the extra timing are the many "stops" in between that one feels and observes if the movement is correctly done.   Fast speed is seldomly used.  Students would have been progressed to Push Hands or the more realistic mock attacks which are generally not slow.

[Taomeow]

25 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

Indeed, almost everything is in medium speed.  For the Square/Step by step Taichi, the overall speed could be very long, the movements conducted are not too slow, the extra timing are the many "stops" in between that one feels and observes if the movement is correctly done.   Fast speed is seldomly used.  Students would have been progressed to Push Hands or the more realistic mock attacks which are generally not slow.

 

Right, fast speed is not used too often except where you have to use it -- e.g. Chen has a varied pace where you do have explosive bursts here and there even at the slow pace, and Sun, in general, tends to be faster than other major styles due to its shorter compact steps, higher stances, and extra aggressiveness.  In real life, most beginner students have a harder time with very slow pace, especially in lower stances (lacking either patience or leg stamina or both), while many advanced students "have tried it all" and have a frame of reference for what/how to work on at a given time. 

 

Push-hands practice with a non-cooperating partner can be lightning fast or excruciatingly slow -- sometimes to the point that to an outside observer it looks like two people are standing there doing nothing whatsoever, just listening (ting).  Almost like this   :

 

 

  

[liminal_luke]

@Taomeow

 

I do a taichi-esque form Michael Winn calls Primordial Qigong.  (Not sure if the movements are actually taichi proper but they look somewhat similar, at least to me.)  I like doing it slower because it feels more meditative and a slower pace gives me time to feel more energetically.  Question: is there such a thing as too slow?  Advantages sometimes to doing the form quickly?  How does the speed of the movement impact the effect it might be having on my body?

 

Any insight you might have into this speed question is much appreciated.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Question: is there such a thing as too slow?  Advantages sometimes to doing the form quickly?  How does the speed of the movement impact the effect it might be having on my body?

 

Any insight you might have into this speed question is much appreciated.

In regard to the speed of in practicing Taiji, I had gathered from the accumulated knowledge of my forty years experience in the Yang style.  Taiji beginners must be practiced at moderated speed. For that said, it means it should not be to slow nor too fast to begin with.

 

The moderated speed is at your own pace. It is because, as a beginner, the leg muscles are not used to withstand the weight of the body by standing on one leg. The duration for standing on one leg depends on the physical strength of the individual.  Some can be standing longer on one leg may perform at slower speed. The one that cannot stand too long may have to do it a little faster to release the stress on the leg. After the leg muscle strength are developed from diligent practice, then, the leg can be stand longer to withstand the body weight. Now, it can be do the movement slower.
 

One should not do faster than the moderate speed. If the speed was beyond the moderate speed, then, it is not Taiji. It becomes  ending up practicing Shaolin Kung Fu. However, after years of diligent practice or became a master of the art, one may perform at much slower or much faster speed. 

Standing on one leg is like one is lifting one's own body weight with the leg. The slower the speed have more health effect to the body. It is because the slow movements are slowly developing the muscle tone throughout the body. The moderate slow speed will, also, prevent from over stressing the leg muscles at the beginning. 

[ChiDragon]

On 5/4/2025 at 3:42 AM, markern said:

I have seen people say that this form isn't proper Chen style but a form made more just to look cool. Is that true or is it genuine Chen style? It sure looks good though. I want to learn it regardless. I just wanna move like that. But it would be interesting to know if it is a proper form or not.



 

 

Let's put it this way. If one can perform a show like that, it must be done by a master of the art.

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

@Taomeow

 

I do a taichi-esque form Michael Winn calls Primordial Qigong.  (Not sure if the movements are actually taichi proper but they look somewhat similar, at least to me.)  I like doing it slower because it feels more meditative and a slower pace gives me time to feel more energetically.  Question: is there such a thing as too slow?  Advantages sometimes to doing the form quickly?  How does the speed of the movement impact the effect it might be having on my body?

 

Any insight you might have into this speed question is much appreciated.

 

Generally, no, there's no such thing as too slow unless you fall asleep in mid-move. Aside from taoist-proper explanations, there's some "objective" evidence neuroscientists have found -- slower deliberate movements help establish and strengthen neural connections, you are actually building the "scaffolding" for them in your brain, connected to your body and its systems.  In the slow mode, you either reinforce and improve on the structure of neural networks you already have, or even build a new "virtual organ" for yourself comprised of those connections -- that's what well-developed specialized parts of your neural networks are, "brain organs" you create yourself.  Fast movement is not as efficient for this until the organ is there and operational.  It's true for the new neuromuscular skills of all kinds -- be it learning longhand writing, playing the piano, or speaking a foreign language.  You start slowly or you won't create that structure or else it will be haphazard and deficient. 

 

Once it's there, however, you're the king of that castle.  If you can do it as impeccably in the fast mode as you do it slowly, you can apply the fast mode to whatever situation warrants it.  And surprise! -- you may become faster, or much faster, than someone who didn't create that "organ" with a slow practice!  Taiji as a fighting art is -- few people realize it these days when it's been so profaned --first and foremost the fastest of them all.  Its primary advantage is the uncanny speed at which it can operate, after all those countless hours/years of being practiced slowly.  (It was measured in some studies, with some advanced masters throwing punches while machines registered and calculated the speed, and it was something unbelievable -- I might try to re-find those documentaries.)  

 

So the practice phase that is slow, the slower the merrier, does not become obsolete even when you can do the same thing with impeccability fast, you still want to keep working on it in the slow mode, there's no limit to perfection.  What's the purpose of the fast movement then?  Well, in martial context, you can't kick anyone's ass in slo-mo.    I might elaborate some more later to your impact on the body question in relation to fast movement.  (I'm in favor of both, slow is mandatory, fast is a really useful add-on...)   

[liminal_luke]

Thanks, @Taomeow!  I´ll go ahead and keep practicing mostly slow then.  I can do the moves fast (more or less anyway; won´t be putting out a video anytime soon ) but when I practice slower I feel more integrated. 

[ChiDragon]

Too slow is that a set of movements can be done in 30 to 45 minutes. That means you stand on one leg and took a minute or so for the other leg to land the the floor/ground. Normally, that is how long for a master to finish the Yang style 108 form if so desired!

[doc benway]

After solidly learning a taiji form at a comfortable, non-distracting speed it should be gradually slowed down as much as possible, imo. Once you get the feel for how slow it can be done, it’s best done very slow periodically. The important thing is to not violate any principles of posture, attention, and continuity. Speeding up has some value to develop rooting with movement and balance but not nearly as much as slowing down, at least for me. Partner drills are much more important when working on speed. In varying the speed, it’s good to attend to the breath which will change and can be very instructive.

 

Holding postures has enormous value and I think is one of the core characteristics of internal martial arts. I was also taught to try and stand after practicing the complete form or a series of forms for at least 10 minutes.

 

My teacher prescribed the Yang 108 form for a minimum of 30 minutes to treat asthma and other pulmonary illness. At first you can do the form multiple times with the ultimate intention of taking the full 30, or more, for one cycle. It works well for my lungs.

 

It is equally beneficial to slow down qigong, perhaps more although I don’t find much value in holding qigong postures or speeding up as in the martial arts. 

Edited May 19 by doc benway

[Thrice Daily]

On 14/05/2025 at 10:30 PM, Taomeow said:

my advice No.1 is, make sure you know exactly what you're doing with your knees before you do!     

Tai Chi knee is no joke, I got a lot of knee pain trying to mimic the Chen form from video classes.

 

not a good idea, imo you can learn the form with you knees real gently and deepen your stance later. 
 

That’s just my experience. Western training to bulletproof your knees is a good idea if you are prone to problems.

[Taomeow]

52 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Tai Chi knee is no joke, I got a lot of knee pain trying to mimic the Chen form from video classes.

 

not a good idea, imo you can learn the form with you knees real gently and deepen your stance later. 
 

That’s just my experience. Western training to bulletproof your knees is a good idea if you are prone to problems.

 

Well, having been blessed with a great teacher, I never once hurt my knees with taiji but I know from others' stories that the (almost only) way to hurt oneself with taiji outside sparring is by misusing the knees.  In fact, I had a hiking accident at one point and it gave me a canary-in-the-mine knee for a while -- after it healed for all everyday use purposes, it still reminded me to be mindful at all times in taiji -- if even slightly misaligned, it issued a warning and I self corrected.  That was a long time ago.  Since then the canary hasn't been awakened even by tennis (a far more dangerous endeavor for the knees), knock on wood.  (But that one time a student came to our taiji class who happened to be a yoga teacher and was allowed to take a few minutes to teach us some yoga, an unfamiliar kind even though I'm not a stranger to yoga, I immediately felt that what she got us to do was a knee-buster...  but being a good sport I went along...  and instantly regretted it.  Not all yoga is created equal...  as well as not all taiji, of course.) 

 

[Master Logray]

In the old days, no one talk about knee much.  Nowadays all teachers and video say knee caution measures.

 

My teacher says in China they employ ex-Olympics athletes to teach Taichi.  They are extremely flexible and go very low in the stances.   It actually is very bad for health, though deliver a very good impression.    While old style martial master or "health" teachers never go that low.  

[Taomeow]

9 hours ago, Master Logray said:

In the old days, no one talk about knee much.  Nowadays all teachers and video say knee caution measures.

 

My teacher says in China they employ ex-Olympics athletes to teach Taichi.  They are extremely flexible and go very low in the stances.   It actually is very bad for health, though deliver a very good impression.    While old style martial master or "health" teachers never go that low.  

 

There's the taiji way to go very low and the not taiji way.  The not taiji way is gaining flexibility chiefly via overstretching the ligaments -- which eventually wreaks chaos with the joints, but starts out looking impressive.  The taiji way is via gradually creating space inside the joints and lengthening the spine, separating each joint into the lower (yin) part and the upper (yang) part and moving in a way that maintains that space and safeguards against the cartilage grinding, synovial fluid leaking, alignments compromised, the whole structure suffering damage.  That part of the taiji skill that is referred to as sung, relaxed dynamic softness, largely depends on this kind of joint use.  (Every time the teacher reminds the students, "drop the shoulder," "drop the elbow," "suspend the head," etc., it's about that space you are learning to create.)  

 

The knees are a bit different from other joints because we walk on two legs and something somewhere has to make sure we don't turn into this toy from my childhood (don't know if anyone growing up later, or elsewhere, has ever seen those -- you press the bottom where all the threads are connected and it collapses.  You can get it to dance this way and that way like one of those for-show wushu practitioners...  fun when you're four years old!  But eventually the threads holding it together overstretch and it can't do shit anymore!)

 

Edited May 20 by Taomeow