end goal is Daoism ( and comparison to Buddhism's end goal )

[snowymountains]

From Fabrizio Pregadio's "THE WAY OF THE GOLDEN ELIXIR"

 

Quote

The first stage proper is “Refining Essence to Transmute it into Breath” (lianjing huaqi), also called Barrier of the Hundred Days (bairi guan). Its purpose is to generate a Breath made of the union of Original Essence and Breath, called the External Medicine (waiyao). By means of repeated breathing cycles, essence is circulated along the route of the above-mentioned River Chariot: it rises in the back of the body along the Function Vessel to the upper Cinnabar Field, and from there descends in the front of the body along the Control Vessel until it reaches the lower Cinnabar Field, where it is sealed and coagulates. This path of circulating the essence is regulated by the system of the Fire Times; it inverts the ordinary tendency of the essence to flow downwards and be wasted.

 

The second stage is “Refining Breath to Transmute it into Spirit” (lianqi huashen), also called Barrier of the Ten Months (shiyue guan). Its purpose is to generate a Spirit made of the union of Original Breath (obtained in the previous stage) and Spirit. Breath and Spirit are the True Water in the lungs (Yin within Yang) and the True Fire in the reins (Yang within Yin). Their conjunction produces the Internal Medicine (neiyao), which is nourished between the lower and the middle Cinnabar Fields. At the end of this stage, Essence, Breath, and Spirit are combined into one entity.

 

The third and final stage is “Refining Spirit to Return to Emptiness” (lianshen huanxu), also called the Barrier of the Nine Years (jiunian guan). Its purpose is to further refine the Spirit obtained in the previous stage so that one may attain Emptiness and and Non-Being. This stage is described as the joining of the External and the Internal Medicines, which results in the formation of the Great Medicine (dayao). The practice ends with the adept’s return to Emptiness, or the Dao.

 

( bold is mine )

 

A) Assuming that emptiness here refers to emptiness of self (which is an assumption of mine, not present in the quote above from Pregadio), this sounds remarkably close to achieving insight.

 

B ) However the above also spells out a process very similar to MCO, which barring some Zen lineages, is not practiced as such in Buddhism, e.g. Theravada has no such practice.

Also, in ( Theravadan ) insight the final stage is where the meditator is able to concentrate on that which has no beginning, no duration and no end, aka Nibbana, which bears no similarities at all to an MCO process.

 

A) and B ) seem to be somewhat at odds, so the question is, is the end goal the same or not between Daoism and Buddhism? If not, then what are the main differences ?

 

Edited May 19 by snowymountains

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

insight the final stage is where the meditator is able to concentrate on that which has no beginning, no duration and no end, aka Nibbana, which bears no similarities at all to an MCO process.

 .......so the question is, is the end goal

i heard the end goal of buddhism is to escape suffering of birth, aging, illness, dying; 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duḥkha#Early_Buddhism

how a concentration or insight on anything prevents any of that?

It does not. Which means that you are mistaken or do not know what is the end goal of Daoism and Buddhism. In reality, both of them have the same goal: creation of an immortal soul which is impervious to suffering.

Edited May 19 by Taoist Texts

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i heard the end goal of buddhism is to escape suffering of birth, aging, illness, dying; 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duḥkha#Early_Buddhism

how a concentration on anything prevents any of that?

eightfold noble path

[Taoist Texts]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

eightfold noble path

Sorry for an answer we really need the nitty gritty nuts and bolts of that. "It just does"sounds reassuring but doesn't explain much

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Sorry for an answer we really need the nitty gritty nuts and bolts of that. "It just does"sounds reassuring but doesn't explain much

‘we’?

[Taoist Texts]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

‘we’?

yes, myself and the OP, tell us how that works, we beseech you

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes, myself and the OP, tell us how that works, we beseech you

I see , thank you.  You have changed your original reply which makes your question clearer.  Is the creation of an immortal soul a goal of Buddhism?  If so what type of Buddhism since it is not really a monolith? 
 

The Buddhas solution to dukkha is the eightfold path which includes right concentration.  And some would say that this is about realizing the non-self and that this brings liberation.

 

it is not particularly my view though . 
 

 

[Mandrake]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i heard the end goal of buddhism is to escape suffering of birth, aging, illness, dying; 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duḥkha#Early_Buddhism

how a concentration or insight on anything prevents any of that?

It does not. Which means that you are mistaken or do not know what is the end goal of Daoism and Buddhism. In reality, both of them have the same goal: creation of an immortal soul which is impervious to suffering.

 

This is grossly wrong.

 

 

M

[Forestgreen]

8 hours ago, snowymountains said:

From Fabrizio Pregadio's "THE WAY OF THE GOLDEN ELIXIR"

 

B ) However the above also spells out a process very similar to MCO, which barring some Zen lineages, is not practiced as such in Buddhism, e.g. Theravada has no such practice.

Also, in ( Theravadan ) insight the final stage is where the meditator is able to concentrate on that which has no beginning, no duration and no end, aka Nibbana, which bears no similarities at all to an MCO process.

Read Pregadios translation of Wang Mu Foundations of Internal Alchemy.  The final stage is not about MCO. 

 

Read Karunadasa The Theravada Abhidhamma at the same time. It should fill in the blanks, and bridge the two traditions rather nicely. 

[Taoist Texts]

how-to explanations are hard because they involve magic words like 'because' and logical cause-effect statements and defined terminology. E. g. "Walls are built by putting a brick on a brick" or "Two atoms of H plus one atom of O = H2O". Thats why most people dont have time for explanations....i think at least thats the reason...time...

[snowymountains]

9 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i heard the end goal of buddhism is to escape suffering of birth, aging, illness, dying; 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duḥkha#Early_Buddhism

how a concentration or insight on anything prevents any of that?

It does not. Which means that you are mistaken or do not know what is the end goal of Daoism and Buddhism. In reality, both of them have the same goal: creation of an immortal soul which is impervious to suffering.

 

In Buddhism end of suffering is achieved through insight, it is possible only when you reach Nibbana.

You can see the stages here Four stages of awakening - Wikipedia ( Mahayana traditions have different stages, this is Theravadan ).

 

Insight is the core of how how to escape from suffering, insight meditation the #1 practice .

Concentration has an important but secondary role, not even 1st Jhana is required to reach Nibbana ( though a pre-jhana samadhi is required ).

 

On Buddhism that's what the end goal is - I can't comment on Daoism, which I don't know.

[snowymountains]

3 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Read Pregadios translation of Wang Mu Foundations of Internal Alchemy.  The final stage is not about MCO. 

 

Read Karunadasa The Theravada Abhidhamma at the same time. It should fill in the blanks, and bridge the two traditions rather nicely. 

 

Thank you, I'll order Wang Mu Foundations of Internal Alchemy and compare it to Abiddhama .

 

What is the role of MCO then as in why is it a core practice? 

In Theravadan Buddhism and most Buddhist lineages it's not a thing. In Rinzai lineages, where an MCO variant exists, it is a practice but not a core one, why is it important in Daoism ?

[Taoist Texts]

15 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

In Buddhism end of suffering is achieved through insight, it is possible only when you reach Nibbana.

i see you are not a big fan of certain words like 'how exactly" and 'because of this happens that'. great then;)

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

i see you are not a big fan of certain words like 'how exactly" and 'because of this happens that'. great then;)

 

I'm not, because I don't buy into the end goal as stated nor the path as stated, though it certainly has good elements in it.

 

Little point in scrutinising a process that has its fair share of gaps ( despite being a very good practice), it would take pages for all that and it wouldn't be related to the question of whether the end goal is the same between the two paths.

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

Is the creation of an immortal soul a goal of Buddhism?  

Yes it is absolutely. What else could be the goal? Of course there are gradations like a better rebirth on earth, a rebirth on a heaven, a final rebirth in the pure land paradise (which is the final nirvana). But they all hinge on constructing a soul, which is like a boat, can fish by the shore, can cross the Atlantic.

Quote

If so what type of Buddhism since it is not really a monolith?

All and every type. We (the buddhists hehe) are really closing ranks on that point;). Do you know a specific type of buddhist which has something else for an end goal?

36 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

the question of whether the end goal is the same between the two paths.

cool. if so let me bask in satisfaction of having answered it above and repeating it here: yes the goal is the same.

Edited May 20 by Taoist Texts

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes it is absolutely. What else could be the goal? Of course there are gradations like a better rebirth on earth, a rebirth on a heaven, a final rebirth in the pure land paradise (which is the final nirvana). But they all hinge on constructing a soul, which is like a boat, can fish by the shore, can cross the Atlantic.

All and every type. We (the buddhists hehe) are really closing ranks on that point;). Do you know a specific type of buddhist which has something else for an end goal?

cool. if so let me bask in satisfaction of having answered it above and repeating it here: yes the goal is the same.

Well it is said that the goal of Theravada is becoming an Arhat and the goal of Mahayana Buddhism is to become a Buddha.  And in the case of Vajrayana to become a Buddha in one life time.

 

As far as I know the only one of these which has an alchemical process is Vajrayana.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Well it is said that the goal of Theravada is becoming an Arhat and the goal of Mahayana Buddhism is to become a Buddha.  And in the case of Vajrayana to become a Buddha in one life time.

well of course. And both of Arhat and Buddha are basically the same thing which both mean the attainment of nirvana:

Quote

In Theravada Buddhism, the Buddha himself is first identified as an arhat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arhat#In_Theravāda_Buddhism

The Mahīśāsaka and the Theravada regarded arhats and buddhas as being similar to one another. The 5th century Theravadin commentator Buddhaghosa regarded arhats as having completed the path to enlightenment.^{[note 4]} According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Pāli Canon portrays the Buddha declaring himself to be an arahant.^{[32][note 5]} According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, nirvāṇa is "the ultimate goal", and one who has attained nirvana has attained arhatship:^{[note 6]} Bhikkhu Bodhi writes, "The defining mark of an arahant is the attainment of nirvāṇa in this present life."^[32]

and nirvana is of course the buddhist paradise

Quote

 

the view of primitive Buddhism was that nirvana was a positive reality, a kind of immortal state (amrta) similar to the godly abode of svarga found in the Edicts of Ashoka.^[58]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)#As_a_metaphysical_reality_or_transcendent_consciousness}

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

As far as I know the only one of these which has an alchemical process is Vajrayana.

alchemy is inherent in all the other schools. once we define what the alchemy is then we will see that it was there the whole time;)

[Apech]

31 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

well of course. And both of Arhat and Buddha are basically the same thing which both mean the attainment of nirvana:

and nirvana is of course the buddhist paradise

 

 

alchemy is inherent in all the other schools. once we define what the alchemy is then we will see that it was there the whole time;)

lol ok thanks for clarifying your understanding.

[Forestgreen]

8 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

What is the role of MCO then as in why is it a core practice? 

In Theravadan Buddhism and most Buddhist lineages it's not a thing. In Rinzai lineages, where an MCO variant exists, it is a practice but not a core one, why is it important in Daoism ?

I'm not a Daoist, but: 

The Du-Ren circulation is important in the beginner practices.

The microcosmic orbit is central in the intermediate practices. 

None of the above are central beyond that.

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

I do think that both Buddhism and Taoism 's goals nearly  are the same :   Solving troubles of  Aging, Sickness, Death and  Living ( Reproduce ) .  The main difference is that in this process , Taoism emphasizes both physical and spiritual proofs , yet the Buddhists overlook the physical ones . In this sense, Taoism is much closer to modern science than Buddhism for at every step, it requires proof, otherwise, Taoists will  look into their ways,  try finding anything  wrong .

 

For example ,  hardly correct practice of  MCO  allows  you suffer from any diseases; even cancer can be a piece of cake provided that you always pay attention to spiritual things , not  interested in them only after having been told by the doctor that you get 3-month life to live .  If  you find qi  not so powerful ,  then it is your practice problematic , you should try finding out what things wrong in your practice..   However , in the same situation , many  shallow-minded  Buddhists will  say  : the body is illusory , some kind of  attachment ,  why care about it ..; 

Edited June 7 by exorcist_1699

[forestofemptiness]

On 5/20/2024 at 8:47 AM, Taoist Texts said:

once we define what the alchemy is then we will see that it was there the whole time;)

 

So… care to define it?

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

So… care to define it?

It is a one single technique for destroying the human mind in order to create an immortal soul

[Forestgreen]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

It is a one single technique for destroying the human mind in order to create an immortal soul

Aaaahh.

You cut to the chase.

[Mark Foote]

On 5/20/2024 at 2:22 AM, snowymountains said:

 

In Buddhism end of suffering is achieved through insight, it is possible only when you reach Nibbana.

 

Insight is the core of how how to escape from suffering, insight meditation the #1 practice .

Concentration has an important but secondary role, not even 1st Jhana is required to reach Nibbana ( though a pre-jhana samadhi is required ).

 

On Buddhism that's what the end goal is - I can't comment on Daoism, which I don't know.
 

 

 

Stirling would probably agree with you.

Can I point out that Gautama's insight came about with his attainment of "the cessation of feeling and perceiving", which Gautama identified as a concentration?

 

Had this debate with stirling the other day--is it insight into emptiness, or is it the experience of cause and effect empty of anything else?

 

…And again, Ananda, [an individual], not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attends to the solitude of mind that is signless. [Their] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [They] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. [One] regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains [one] comprehends:  'That being, this is.' Thus, Ananda, this comes to be for [such a one] s true, not mistaken, utterly purified and incomparably highest realisation of emptiness.

 

("Lesser Discourse on Emptiness", Culasunnatasutta, Pali Text Society MN III 121 vol III p 151-2)

 

As to the eight-fold path, there's this:

 

(Anyone)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind).

 

Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified.

 

(Pali Text Society MN III p 337-338)

 

 

I gather that he's talking about knowing the eye and the rest as 'That being, this is.'

 

 

Edited Friday at 08:51 PM by Mark Foote

[snowymountains]

16 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Stirling would probably agree with you.

Can I point out that Gautama's insight came about with his attainment of "the cessation of feeling and perceiving", which Gautama identified as a concentration?

 

Had this debate with stirling the other day--is it insight into emptiness, or is it the experience of cause and effect empty of anything else?

 

…And again, Ananda, [an individual], not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attends to the solitude of mind that is signless. [Their] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [They] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. [One] regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains [one] comprehends:  'That being, this is.' Thus, Ananda, this comes to be for [such a one] s true, not mistaken, utterly purified and incomparably highest realisation of emptiness.

 

("Lesser Discourse on Emptiness", Culasunnatasutta, Pali Text Society MN III 121 vol III p 151-2)

 

As to the eight-fold path, there's this:

 

(Anyone)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind).

 

Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified.

 

(Pali Text Society MN III p 337-338)

 

 

I gather that he's talking about knowing the eye and the rest as 'That being, this is.'

 

 

 

The final stage of insight meditation is about concentrating on that which has no beginning-duration-end, unlike all other processes in insight meditation, which is Nibbana.

 

Though I'm no Arahat to have experience of it.