Is 'just sitting' a post-enlightment practice?

[Nintendao]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

I don't know anything about Mr. Mitchell.

 

It was neat to hear him speak about direct transmission from a qigong perspective. Beyond the obvious benefits of in-person learning, there always seems to be this extra level of "stuff," depending on the teacher. Even given a strictly pragmatic explanation of somatic empathy, there really is a lot of potential in purely sitting and experiencing.

 

Edited April 19 by Nintendao

[forestofemptiness]

I would add that I have found a lot of use on relative concentration, sleeping, and dreaming practices. They can be strong and direct methods of disidentifying with the various layers of body and mind. Of course, these states may also arise with "just sitting," but they also may not. Also, people have different hang ups. A of Zen teachers would say to avoid books, etc., but for me studying Madhyamaka was very useful in letting go of mental knots. Of course, one can always overdo anything. 

 

 

[snowymountains]

31 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The teachings on the absolute are "maximalist" because the nature of reality is uncompromising. It can't be bent to encompass conceptual frameworks that we cherish.

 

Intellectually, I completely get how the absolute can create cognitive dissonance, but it truly is the reality of things. Once seen and understood, there is no way understand the world in the way it was before... not that this is a burden... it is a great joy. 

 

The relative teachings, which include the realms, rebirth, etc. are not ultimately real, though as real as anything else you think is "real". Nirvana IS real, but is not some other place or thing other than what is happening in this moment. It is always right here. 

 

The relative teachings are where "religious" ideas live in the Buddhist teachings. The relative teachings are skillful means, where ability to work with the absolute teachings is still in development. The teachings on impermanence, and especially dependent origination are the bridge to the absolute teachings. The relative actually is ALWAYS pointing at the absolute. 

 

The absolute teachings (and the relative teachings couching absolute teachings) are not at all religious, once fully understood.

Coming full circle: The meditation practice (in Zen/Mahamudra/Dgozchen) is, from the beginning, an absolute practice that cultivates insight into the non-dual nature of reality. The absolute isn't going to resonate with ANYONE'S ideas about how reality is. 

 

 

Well it resonates with those whose ideas align with the absolute, aka agree with this theology.

 

Indeed a conceptual framework can't exactly describe an altered state of consciousness, actually it can't always exactly describe everything in the "common" state of consciousness.

 

But this doesn't mean anything, what's done here is simply pack everything but the ASC/nirvana into relative and when found faulty say it's relative and you get a self-coherent theology that can always excuse the doctrines found to be wrong or incomplete .

 

So in that sense all that matters is the aluded ASC, but the tools to get there are not complete, and so the tools are called relative teachings pointing to the absolute.

 

Isn't it simpler to just say the tools there are not complete to remove conditioning? 🙂

 

[Neirong]

On 19.04.2024 at 1:13 AM, stirling said:

It's NICE to sit! You won't get far in most spirituality without sitting. Meditation is even a feature of magick practice. Getting all of your fixed ideas about yourself and the world out of the way opens up the space for shifts in understanding to occur.

 

Sitting in meditation after insight into the nature of mind deepens the experience of it and helps the continual further dissolution of dualities and ancient twisted karma. 

 

You can reach a level where stillness becomes permanent. Then, it won't matter if you sit, stand, or walk, and it won't require any specific physical action to work.

 

The reason people require extended sitting in stillness is that they have too much crap floating around in their mental bodies, and they have to wait till all the residue falls down so they regain some clarity. (Think of a cup of tea with leaves).

 

Then, when they leave their "closed 168-hr sitting retreat," they quickly return to their usual state of mind.

 

On 19.04.2024 at 1:13 AM, stirling said:

No practice "works"

That is incorrect. If you lift weights till your muscles give up, they will start growing and developing from the stimulus, if you lift balloons, nothing will ever happen.

 

6 hours ago, stirling said:

It is direct experience that is valued, not axioms.

Thats good.

 

6 hours ago, Nintendao said:

While Damo will be the first to deny he is any kind of enlightened, he do be emitting some light.

Thats crazy. He has a lamp above his head. What lengths and depths do people go to prop their favorite drug addict?

[Nintendao]

13 minutes ago, Neirong said:

6 hours ago, Nintendao said:

Damo … he do be emitting some light.

Thats crazy. He has a lamp above his head

 

 i wasn't talking about in the video itself. I was referring to the energy field he described, that is able to interact with the nerves and qi of students to literally guide internal movement. I posted it in this thread as i wondered if a similar thing happens when Zen masters sit with someone, albeit at a more subtle level since they're not building and shaping qi but mind.

 

13 minutes ago, Neirong said:

drug addict

 

So do you think he is hallucinating being able to move qi? Or worse he's putting all this effort into deliberately ripping people off just to be able to buy more whisky and cigars?

[silent thunder]

44 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

 

 i wasn't talking about in the video itself. I was referring to the energy field he described, that is able to interact with the nerves and qi of students to literally guide internal movement. I posted it in this thread as i wondered if a similar thing happens when Zen masters sit with someone, albeit at a more subtle level since they're not building and shaping qi but mind.

 

 

So do you think he is hallucinating being able to move qi? Or worse he's putting all this effort into deliberately ripping people off just to be able to buy more whisky and cigars?

Some folks see the moon.

while others stare at the finger pointing... and wonder.

 

[steve]

On 4/15/2024 at 2:23 PM, Vajra Fist said:

My question I suppose is how do you correct yourself when you notice that an imbalance has occurred - I.e. distracted by thought. Do you note the content of your thought, relax and then let them pass? Or do you just sit and hope that your mind eventually shuts up?

 

I would not recommend that you sit and hope that your mind shuts up. 

There will always be activity arising in a healthy mind. The objective is not to quiet the mind but to see it as it is.

I would also not be too concerned about noting the content, per se. The content has little to do with this practice. 

What is important is noticing when you've become disconnected/distracted from your practice, such as it is, and reconnect.

There needs to be a sort of passive vigilance that notices when we are being/have been drawn into thought, feeling, or focused perception. Once we notice, we simply reconnect with the practice, and continue. For me this is a releasing or resting of the mental activity, opening to my authentic experience, whatever that may be in the moment, and allowing it to be as it is without engaging, grasping, or pushing anything away. This is an ongoing process and is one of the more valuable benefits of sitting practice. With time and patience we begin to notice our interruptions sooner and find it easier to release and reconnect. Eventually it occurs with less and less frequency and effort until at some point we find a sense of stability, almost an inertia, in the openness of unfabricated presence. It can be a gradual process but there can also be very profound and abrupt experiences of the heart/mind opening into stillness, silence, and spaciousness. As practice becomes stable on the cushion it needs to be exercised off the cushion in all areas of our lives.

 

On 4/15/2024 at 2:23 PM, Vajra Fist said:

 

I've experimented with shikantaza this past week (three hours today), and I've tried both approaches. The first feels a bit more like a method, or something that involves 'doing'. 

 

The second approach seems to go either of two ways: sometimes the mind becomes like a shiny metallic ball, reflecting everything without any blemish to the surface.

 

Or the mind can just become dull, you stop realising that you're distracted by thought and just go into a spaced out trance. 

 

When you practice for months and years you will notice an infinite number of variations on the theme when it comes to ways we disconnect and reconnect to our practice. Also an endless number of meditative experiences arise, the "good" experiences generally indicative of the release of a particular obscuration or blockage and the "bad" experiences often a sign that we are ttrying to hard.

 

On 4/15/2024 at 2:23 PM, Vajra Fist said:

 

I've started working through a course by (Dharma Drum inheritor) Guo Gu on silent illumination. His teacher Sheng Yen taught a staged approach to the meditation rather than just throwing students in the deep end with the vague instruction to 'just sit'. It starts with progressive relaxation and then awareness of the body as an initial 'tether' for the mind.

 

I was taught, and teach, a very specific recipe for this process as well. We use the body, speech, and mind, each of which has an aspect that is related to the mind's essence, rather than its content - stillness of the body, silence of the speech, and spaciousness of the mind. Also, in the Bön dzogchen tradition, zhiné (meditation with an object) is practiced until some degree of stability and insight into the mind's nature are achieved. Only then do we begin to practice with less tangible objects like stillness, silence, and spaciousness always moving towards untethering. My experience is that most people find it much more accessible to have a target, of sorts, and a tether. With practice and time these are gradually released until we are able to jump in to the deep end and find support and stability. Undoubtedly there are people who need little or no support. That was not the case for me. 

 

On 4/15/2024 at 2:23 PM, Vajra Fist said:

 

Experienced hands - is this the wiser approach?

 

As always, wiser for whom?

We need to know ourselves and be honest with ourselves in order to know what we need. 

 

[stirling]

20 hours ago, Nintendao said:

It was neat to hear him speak about direct transmission from a qigong perspective. Beyond the obvious benefits of in-person learning, there always seems to be this extra level of "stuff," depending on the teacher. Even given a strictly pragmatic explanation of somatic empathy, there really is a lot of potential in purely sitting and experiencing.

 

I would call this "pointing out" (from the Tibetan Buddhist traditions). I'm not sure how it is talked about in your video, but in my practice it is a demonstration of what "emptiness" is, and some instruction on how to find it. I probably end up doing something along these lines every few meetings with a student. Once a student sees and NON-CONCEPTUALLY understands "emptiness" they can learn to allow it to well-up in their experience with greater and greater degrees of success and confidence. 

[stirling]

19 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Well it resonates with those whose ideas align with the absolute, aka agree with this theology.

 

What is important is that it resonates with the "awakened", or those with "no-self"/arhats. These absolute teachings are the best attempts at conceptual explanation available from perspective of enlightened mind. 

 

19 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Indeed a conceptual framework can't exactly describe an altered state of consciousness, actually it can't always exactly describe everything in the "common" state of consciousness.

 

Agreed. The language/belief system of science has the same problem, despite its ability to predictively model reality where the variables are limited. I would, of course, say that this is because the "common" experience of consciousness is not different from the "enlightened" experience EXCEPT for the perceptual overlay of distortion in between it and experiencing. 

 

19 hours ago, snowymountains said:

But this doesn't mean anything, what's done here is simply pack everything but the ASC/nirvana into relative and when found faulty say it's relative and you get a self-coherent theology that can always excuse the doctrines found to be wrong or incomplete.

 

I'm not sure I follow you here.

 

19 hours ago, snowymountains said:

So in that sense all that matters is the aluded ASC, but the tools to get there are not complete, and so the tools are called relative teachings pointing to the absolute.

 

What is labelled "relative" are the teachings that point to symbolic ideas about a subject/object world... but even those lead to absolute teachings. While some teaching may be intended to lead to "altered states" analogous to enlightenment (the jhanas for example) the overall intention points to nirvana which is NOT an altered "state" (something temporary) but a permanent shift in understanding that doesn't fade or change. It is reality, as it is, over years upon years and, as far as I can tell, the variety of human experience including: extreme pain, sleep, emotions, intoxication, etc., etc.

 

19 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Isn't it simpler to just say the tools there are not complete to remove conditioning? 🙂

 

The toolset is simple: bring conditioning into consciousness when the mind is quiet and empty and allow that thought to pass are you would any other thought. This has been used for thousands of years. For some without deep trauma and attachment to their distorted views, this would be enough. Others might need some help from an intelligent, experienced psychological professional such as yourself. 

 

Some might clear enough of their conditioning to awaken. Awakening, and the eventual dropping away of "self" permanently change our relationship to our conditioning. At this point conditioning becomes MUCH easier to drop, due to the shift in perspective. From the moment of "awakening" (satori in Zen) the "self" is like a fan that has had its plug pulled. Things experienced as "self" are generally seen for what they are and drop away. The old patterns arise in experience of their own accord and drop away when brought into the stillness of enlightened mind. The "tool" at this point is effortless, and just an automatic part of experience.

 

Seeing reality as it is definitely completely removes conditioning, in my experience. 

 

 

[stirling]

17 hours ago, Neirong said:

You can reach a level where stillness becomes permanent. Then, it won't matter if you sit, stand, or walk, and it won't require any specific physical action to work.

 

Absolutely. This is my experience. 

 

17 hours ago, Neirong said:

The reason people require extended sitting in stillness is that they have too much crap floating around in their mental bodies, and they have to wait till all the residue falls down so they regain some clarity. (Think of a cup of tea with leaves).

 

I agree, in terms of "requiring" sitting. Despite having an everyday experience of formlessness to a particular degree, I sit because there are deeper levels of formlessness available there... and I just love sitting, it is enjoyably effortless. 

 

17 hours ago, Neirong said:

Then, when they leave their "closed 168-hr sitting retreat," they quickly return to their usual state of mind.

 

Commonly, yes. I think of the mind as like a willow branch. You may bend the branch over and over to train it into a shape, like a chair, but at first it just bends back. Eventually, however, it increasingly stays where it is bent, until at some point it doesn't bend back. So it is with meditation. 

 

17 hours ago, Neirong said:

That is incorrect. If you lift weights till your muscles give up, they will start growing and developing from the stimulus, if you lift balloons, nothing will ever happen.

 

From the perspective of enlightened mind, WHO is doing the lifting? You say earlier:

 

Quote

Then, it won't matter if you sit, stand, or walk, and it won't require any specific physical action to work.

 

Meditation changes the mind, but what ACTUALLY precipitates awakening (if there IS anything) is unknown. If we DID know what it was we could skip meditation and just cut to the chase... but you can't. The best you can do, IMHO, is be "accident prone" as Suzuki suggests. 

[steve]

... TMI ...

 

[Neirong]

On 20.04.2024 at 2:22 AM, Nintendao said:

i wasn't talking about in the video itself. I was referring to the energy field he described, that is able to interact with the nerves and qi of students to literally guide internal movement.

 

You have linked the video in the message where you made this statement.
It is even crazier to assume that people will be willing to waste hours watching those videos.

 

You also find the audacity to post his videos in every thread non-related to him or his school, as if there are too few of those already, despite Damien history of publicly denigrating, belittling and insulting Buddhism along with many other traditions and practices.

 

On 20.04.2024 at 2:22 AM, Nintendao said:

So do you think he is hallucinating being able to move qi? Or worse he's putting all this effort into deliberately ripping people off just to be able to buy more whisky and cigars?

He is also trying to be Andrew Tate and "sell masculinity" and "fake martial arts" to younger gullible audience.
He is unhealthy physically and mentally.
Whatever he is practicing clearly did not work for him.

 

On 19.04.2024 at 10:05 PM, Nintendao said:

It was neat to hear him speak about direct transmission from a qigong perspective.

 

Transmissions are indeed a method of teaching in any internal arts school past a certain level.

 

What you don't understand, however, is that transmission is an imprint, and an imprint will contain many things that exist in reality.
Reality is not the same as the pink and fluffy unicorn imagination you create in your mind while listening to hundreds of hours of talks, where you see an enlightened Guru emitting light.

 

Getting transmission from an unqualified "Teacher" is worse than having unprotected sex with a cheap whore; you will not only pay money, you will end up with a bunch of nasty and deadly diseases, mental and astral parasites, larvaes. That can put an end to your spiritual development prospects for your entire life and sometimes even carry over to the next one.

[Nintendao]

3 hours ago, Neirong said:

You have linked the video in the message where you made this statement.

 

I meant that i was not talking about the visual imagery of the video but rather the informational content that was being discussed, itself capable of being received by audio.

 

3 hours ago, Neirong said:

You also find the audacity to post his videos in every thread non-related to him or his school

 

do you mean to the one other place i have recently linked a youtube of him discussing the location of acupoints, in a thread about the location of an acupoint? Yes, i like to provide sources for information that i found useful, in the event a reader might be inclined to follow through and actually receive said information for themselves.

 

3 hours ago, Neirong said:

It is even crazier to assume that people will be willing to waste hours watching those videos.

 

especially when they could have spent that time jumping to conclusions based on preconceived notions and making pointless accusations.

 

3 hours ago, Neirong said:

parasites

 

you seem to know an awful lot about those.

 

Edited April 22 by Nintendao

[snowymountains]

On 20/04/2024 at 6:05 PM, stirling said:

 

What is important is that it resonates with the "awakened", or those with "no-self"/arhats. These absolute teachings are the best attempts at conceptual explanation available from perspective of enlightened mind. 

 

 

Agreed. The language/belief system of science has the same problem, despite its ability to predictively model reality where the variables are limited. I would, of course, say that this is because the "common" experience of consciousness is not different from the "enlightened" experience EXCEPT for the perceptual overlay of distortion in between it and experiencing. 

 

 

I'm not sure I follow you here.

 

 

What is labelled "relative" are the teachings that point to symbolic ideas about a subject/object world... but even those lead to absolute teachings. While some teaching may be intended to lead to "altered states" analogous to enlightenment (the jhanas for example) the overall intention points to nirvana which is NOT an altered "state" (something temporary) but a permanent shift in understanding that doesn't fade or change. It is reality, as it is, over years upon years and, as far as I can tell, the variety of human experience including: extreme pain, sleep, emotions, intoxication, etc., etc.

 

 

The toolset is simple: bring conditioning into consciousness when the mind is quiet and empty and allow that thought to pass are you would any other thought. This has been used for thousands of years. For some without deep trauma and attachment to their distorted views, this would be enough. Others might need some help from an intelligent, experienced psychological professional such as yourself. 

 

Some might clear enough of their conditioning to awaken. Awakening, and the eventual dropping away of "self" permanently change our relationship to our conditioning. At this point conditioning becomes MUCH easier to drop, due to the shift in perspective. From the moment of "awakening" (satori in Zen) the "self" is like a fan that has had its plug pulled. Things experienced as "self" are generally seen for what they are and drop away. The old patterns arise in experience of their own accord and drop away when brought into the stillness of enlightened mind. The "tool" at this point is effortless, and just an automatic part of experience.

 

Seeing reality as it is definitely completely removes conditioning, in my experience. 

 

 

 

One thing that's lacking from this discussion is how common disorders and trauma are.

For disorders the official number in the current population snapshot iirc is close to 10%, I know nobody who takes this number too seriously, it sounds way too low. Also about half the population will develop a disorder by the time they reach old age. Trauma is very common too.

Disorders and trauma is not a niche that concerns a tiny fraction of people.

 

I was not referring only to ephemeral states. Eg after long term therapy people see the world very differently too, it's not an ASC like a Jhana or like a psychedelics-induced state, but it's permanent, people who are there quicky recognise one another, cannot go back to a conditioned way of seeing things etc.

Self remains, because it is a real thing, but it's a "truer" self.

 

Insight alone can't remove conditioning, at least not for most people ( even without disorders or trauma), more tools are needed but also in practical terms, the tools cannot be self-applied as they rely on transference - not the intellectual framework of transference per se, rather the phenomenon which the intellectual framework attempts to describe.

 

Also the whole process works because of the therapist's many years of own therapy ( perma-therapy essentially ) and having supervision on top of that. If you remove that structure, the methods won't work.

( CBT methods don't rely on transference ( though they are affected by it) but others methods do rely ).

 

 

Now it is true that therapy, in general [*], won't bring cessation, as this is not a therapeutic goal nor does therapy in general even have tools for cessation but with respect to removing conditioning, it's extremely effective at that.

 

[*] For spiritual goals the only form of therapy which explicitly has such goals is Jungian analysis and its individuation process. In that framework, the "Unus Mundus" is the ultimate reality that can be experienced, though this is by no means guaranteed nor trivial.

[stirling]

On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:

I was not referring only to ephemeral states. Eg after long term therapy people see the world very differently too, it's not an ASC like a Jhana or like a psychedelics-induced state, but it's permanent, people who are there quickly recognise one another, cannot go back to a conditioned way of seeing things etc.

 

Yeah... that's a different thing. I was different after experimenting with LSD in my teens and twenties in much the same way. I was thankful for it, and would meet people at parties and often know intuitively that they had also had that experience. Also, when I discovered that taking an entry level dose of Klonipin could erase my anxiety it was quite an eye opener. The realization that most people didn't walk around in anxiety was a revelation... but not the same kind of eye opener that realizing that all appearances are empty of "self" and other... just not in any way comparable in scale. It is the second that permanently cured the off and on generalized anxiety I had enjoyed from childhood, not first and the associated therapy. I am NOT invalidating therapy, which I have found helpful in other contexts, merely talking about my personal experience.  

 

I'm curious, why are you meditating when you don't believe in the central premise for its existence - what it is supposed to be according the tradition (Zen) you say you practice in? It is INTENDED to dig up your personal stuff, and would actually train you to notice with curiosity when you become fixated with attachment or aversion. 

 

On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:

Self remains, because it is a real thing, but it's a "truer" self.

 

What? Nah.  Self is a story you tell yourself moment to moment. Which of your "selves" is the true one? The one you inhabit when you are with your partner? Someone in a shop? With your parents? With an officer of the law when you have been pulled over? Self comes and goes, shifts and changes. It is possibly the easiest object to see impermanence in. 

 

On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:

Insight alone can't remove conditioning, at least not for most people ( even without disorders or trauma), more tools are needed but also in practical terms, the tools cannot be self-applied as they rely on transference - not the intellectual framework of transference per se, rather the phenomenon which the intellectual framework attempts to describe.

 

This is not my experience, and I daresay that of many of my teaching peers. I am being honest here, not gaslighting you. 

 

On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:

Now it is true that therapy, in general [*], won't bring cessation, as this is not a therapeutic goal nor does therapy in general even have tools for cessation but with respect to removing conditioning, it's extremely effective at that.

 

Oh definitely therapy is helpful in working with conditioning for many people. Thank you for your service to them. 

 

On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:

For spiritual goals the only form of therapy which explicitly has such goals is Jungian analysis and its individuation process. In that framework, the "Unus Mundus" is the ultimate reality that can be experienced, though this is by no means guaranteed nor trivial.

 

Had to look it up, though I did enjoy reading Jung a bit in my 16 credits of psychology in college:

 

 

Quote

 

Dorn's explanation is illuminating in that it affords us a deep insight into the alchemical mysterium coniunctionis. If this is nothing less than a restoration of the original state of the cosmos and the divine unconsciousness of the world, we can understand the extraordinary fascination emanating from this mystery. It is the Western equivalent of the fundamental principle of classic Chinese philosophy, namely the union of yang and yin in tao, and at the same time a premonition of that “tertium quid” which, on the basis of psychological experience on the one hand and Rhine’s experiments on the other, I have called “synchronicity”. If mandala symbolism is the psychological equivalent of the unus mundus, then synchronicity is its parapsychological equivalent.

— Carl Jung, Mysterium Coniunctionis

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unus_mundus

 

That's what I'm talking about (at least the part that I italicized)! Have you read Dogen by any chance:

 

Quote

To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly. - Dogen, Genjo Koan

 

The restoration of the original state is the Tao. The behavior of a Buddha is "wu wei", alignment, presence. It is alignment and synchronization with everything, as it is happening moment to moment. It would be a little tough if there was a "self" in there thinking it had agency, wouldn't it?

 

 

 

[Neirong]

On 22.04.2024 at 12:56 AM, Nintendao said:

you seem to know an awful lot about those.

 

I have developed third eye and see a lot of stuff on "victims" of new age teachings. I also wrote and authored several research papers on it.

Cults are basically breeding ground for larvaes. Have fun with it.

[snowymountains]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Yeah... that's a different thing. I was different after experimenting with LSD in my teens and twenties in much the same way. I was thankful for it, and would meet people at parties and often know intuitively that they had also had that experience. Also, when I discovered that taking an entry level dose of Klonipin could erase my anxiety it was quite an eye opener. The realization that most people didn't walk around in anxiety was a revelation... but not the same kind of eye opener that realizing that all appearances are empty of "self" and other... just not in any way comparable in scale. It is the second that permanently cured the off and on generalized anxiety I had enjoyed from childhood, not first and the associated therapy. I am NOT invalidating therapy, which I have found helpful in other contexts, merely talking about my personal experience.  

 

I'm curious, why are you meditating when you don't believe in the central premise for its existence - what it is supposed to be according the tradition (Zen) you say you practice in? It is INTENDED to dig up your personal stuff, and would actually train you to notice with curiosity when you become fixated with attachment or aversion. 

 

 

What? Nah.  Self is a story you tell yourself moment to moment. Which of your "selves" is the true one? The one you inhabit when you are with your partner? Someone in a shop? With your parents? With an officer of the law when you have been pulled over? Self comes and goes, shifts and changes. It is possibly the easiest object to see impermanence in. 

 

 

This is not my experience, and I daresay that of many of my teaching peers. I am being honest here, not gaslighting you. 

 

 

Oh definitely therapy is helpful in working with conditioning for many people. Thank you for your service to them. 

 

 

Had to look it up, though I did enjoy reading Jung a bit in my 16 credits of psychology in college:

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unus_mundus

 

That's what I'm talking about (at least the part that I italicized)! Have you read Dogen by any chance:

 

 

The restoration of the original state is the Tao. The behavior of a Buddha is "wu wei", alignment, presence. It is alignment and synchronization with everything, as it is happening moment to moment. It would be a little tough if there was a "self" in there thinking it had agency, wouldn't it?

 

 

 

 

It would take a long response as to why I meditate but the short answer is whatever may also be a therapy goal, therapy is much more efficient.

Now there are some things which are out of scope for therapy, ie samadhis, jhana states, these are pure meditative goals. I also do see value in insight meditation but less so for removing conditioning on its own - it is very good to build the habit of observing conscious thoughts, sensations on the body, feelings and their interpedendence. So I see it as means to an end, a sort of drill if you like.

 

In general, I view meditation exercises as training exercises btw, so for skills to be applied each moment in the day, as eg a runner may do weightlifting for strength training, to run better, not for the weights per se. Weight training has its own goals and progression of course and it needs to be taken seriously but it's there to e.g. run faster and with less injuries.

 

As for conditioning, to remove conditioning one first has to observe it and "record" it. To observe it, is has to occur. To occur, one needs an environment which triggers manifestations of the conditioning, so interactions in all sorts of relationships and situations. Now that's the first step, observing and recording is not the end of the story but wanted to show why just sitting is not the way to make all things manifest.

 

So one has to separate what is an exclusive meditative goal (and positive side-effect) that does not have a therapeutic equivalent.

 

 

The self I was referring to in my post was in the sense of values that stem from the experiences of our own organism vs values that stem because of past needs to be accepted by our environment. So truer in the sense that the values will be close to the experience of our own organism.

So not directly relevant to "internal family systems", but indirectly related as this sort of process also brings all these parts into negotiation with each other.

Terminology in the above is far from being exact btw, even the word self is used a little sloppily, but in any case the idea of having values aligned with the experience of our organism is Rogerian, that is what I refered to as truer self.

 

I know you're not gaslighting, never thought you were 🙂.

Dogen not really, was not into Soto.

 

 

Having a self is not incompatible with e.g. connecting to the Unus Mundus. Actually without realising there is a self and what it looks like, it is impossible to step out of it. Also, stepping out of self does not mean it doesn't exist. Actually one must know self very well to be able to observe and record it when it interferes.

The self in the above paragraph is more in line Jung's concept of "ego" (which is not the same as ego in everyday parlance), the center of our conscious mind, so somewhat different to the "self" used previously in this post.

Edited April 23 by snowymountains

[johndoe2012]

Try this 

 

 

[Nintendao]

5 hours ago, Neirong said:

Have fun with it.

 

All day.

Spoiler

 

[Mark Foote]

On 4/21/2024 at 3:03 PM, snowymountains said:

 

Now it is true that therapy, in general [*], won't bring cessation, as this is not a therapeutic goal nor does therapy in general even have tools for cessation but with respect to removing conditioning, it's extremely effective at that.

 

 

Gautama spoke of cessation, in the context of thoughts initial and sustained with regard to the state of mind:

 

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out.

 

Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe in. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe out.

 

Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out.

 

Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe in. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe out.

 

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed)

 

 

The thoughts he described, he said were a part of his way of living.

 

"Contemplating cessation"--the cessation of the "activities", which are the actions of speech, body, and mind that take place as a result of "determinate thought":

 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance [first meditative state], speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased. ... Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.

 

(SN IV 217, Vol IV p 146)

 

I'm convinced Gautama touched on "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" as a regular part of his way of living, that he sat until he attained such a cessation and the subsequent "survey-sign of the concentration", and that by means of the "survey-sign" he could touch on "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" in his contemplation of cessation in daily living.

But say--what did you mean by cessation?  

[stirling]

18 hours ago, snowymountains said:

It would take a long response as to why I meditate but the short answer is whatever may also be a therapy goal, therapy is much more efficient.

 

You are meditating for therapy, but it is ineffective? If you don't want a teacher, I would suggest trying Jack Kornfield's "A Path With Heart". 

 

18 hours ago, snowymountains said:

...it is very good to build the habit of observing conscious thoughts, sensations on the body, feelings and their interpedendence. So I see it as means to an end, a sort of drill if you like.

 

If you become adept at watching your thoughts, feelings and sensations you get to the point where any of them can arise in consciousness and dissolve without triggering an associated dialog. Worth learning to do. 

 

18 hours ago, snowymountains said:

As for conditioning, to remove conditioning one first has to observe it and "record" it. To observe it, is has to occur. To occur, one needs an environment which triggers manifestations of the conditioning, so interactions in all sorts of relationships and situations. Now that's the first step, observing and recording is not the end of the story but wanted to show why just sitting is not the way to make all things manifest.

 

I agree with all of that, EXCEPT that anyone who sits will notice that their baggage comes up. It is part of why you meditate, and happens there, but also in your daily life. People often have deep trauma come up on long retreats, for a good reason. Most meditation centers will suggest retreat attendees think carefully about their psychological history before committing to retreats for this reason.

 

18 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Having a self is not incompatible with e.g. connecting to the Unus Mundus. Actually without realising there is a self and what it looks like, it is impossible to step out of it. Also, stepping out of self does not mean it doesn't exist. Actually one must know self very well to be able to observe and record it when it interferes.

 

If the the "Unus Mundus" is being conflated with the Tao, then I would disagree. Possibly there is a larger discussion of "self" that could be had to clarify this point. Couple of pints in a local pub?

 

Certainly where there is illumination to what the "self" actually IS, interference slowly comes to a halt. 

 

 

 

[johndoe2012]

 

[snowymountains]

11 hours ago, stirling said:

 

You are meditating for therapy, but it is ineffective? If you don't want a teacher, I would suggest trying Jack Kornfield's "A Path With Heart". 

 

 

If you become adept at watching your thoughts, feelings and sensations you get to the point where any of them can arise in consciousness and dissolve without triggering an associated dialog. Worth learning to do. 

 

 

I agree with all of that, EXCEPT that anyone who sits will notice that their baggage comes up. It is part of why you meditate, and happens there, but also in your daily life. People often have deep trauma come up on long retreats, for a good reason. Most meditation centers will suggest retreat attendees think carefully about their psychological history before committing to retreats for this reason.

 

 

If the the "Unus Mundus" is being conflated with the Tao, then I would disagree. Possibly there is a larger discussion of "self" that could be had to clarify this point. Couple of pints in a local pub?

 

Certainly where there is illumination to what the "self" actually IS, interference slowly comes to a halt. 

 

 

 

 

It's not about teachers, I had teachers in the past and currently do have a monk teacher, from whom I learned a lot and respect a lot.

I'm not anti-mediation, nor anti-monks, teachers.

 

For *some things*, like removing conditioning, therapeutic techniques are way more efficient than meditation.

 

Meditation indeed connects to some degree the conscious to the unconscious and "stuff" does become conscious, it's just not the most effective way to bring the unconscious to the conscious and practice while just sitting will miss things as well.

Without a long response, at the risk of some sloppiness , any interaction that triggers overly positive or negative emotions is worth gold in terms of looking inside us and some the data that comes out won't be activated from meditation while sitting.

 

The retreats & trauma topic is a long discussion, Gabor Mate included it as one of the main topics in a recent workshop. What you say is correct, it does happen, I've seen it too but it's also a long discussion, as to why, who should go, who shouldn't etc. It's also not always possible to know in advance what will someone experience.

 

Btw I don't conflate the Unus Mundus with the Tao or anything else, I don't practice Taoism anyhow but conflating between different traditions is effectively cognitively bringing spiritual experiences, which can only create an ontological salad, a la Blavatsky.

 

Imo meditation is for things like concentration and spiritual experiences. Eg samadhis or experiencing interconnectedness between living beings and perhaps more experiences that I haven't had yet.

 

Therapy will not provide any of these. It can't and it's anyhow out of scope for therapy ( unless it's Jungian analysis, which is also spiritual ).

But for removing conditioning, therapy is king.

 

 

Edited April 24 by snowymountains

[johndoe2012]

I tested just sitting with some tension in the stomach area. 

 

It didn't move at all. When I asked 'is this the self?' then the mind recognized it as tension and not self and then the tension disappeared. 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

It's not about teachers, I had teachers in the past and currently do have a monk teacher, from whom I learned a lot and respect a lot.

I'm not anti-mediation, nor anti-monks, teachers.….

 

I am happy to leave this topic there, my friend. Thank you for an engaging and civil discussion. 🙏