Why am I not Enlightened?

[silent thunder]

59 minutes ago, dwai said:

How serendipitous. I was recently pondering about Time - 

 

 What is time? When we say we can “observe” time change, Is it really the case? Can we observe time or we infer time by observing phenomena? Is the phenomenon of rotation of the earth around its axis the same as time? Is the revolution of the earth around the sun also the same as time? Time to me seems to be like an “āvařaňa” (a veil) that obscures and obfuscates “the reality” by the way of changes. We presume/impute its existence by observing changes in phenomena.

In that sense, time seems more like māyā imho. It is a veil - it neither exists nor does it not exist - or it is anirvachaniya. When we peer through the changes to find the changeless, is it real? And yet we know that the changeless is unaffected by it, but still even those who have Brahma sakshåtkāra cannot deny it relatively speaking.

This! 

Time seems a function of inference via our interpretation of memory.

 

I so deeply appreciate the penetrative and revelatory insights of Indian Cosmology.  Time indeed seems an aspect of Maya.  

 

That ancient heritage has given us an advanced vocabulary for these deep conceptual insights that is being echoed by the latest findings of theoretical physics.  It's wonderful to see modern man exploring reality and finding harmonious observations with our ancestors.

 

I love the term avarana... it's new to me.

 

Look deeply enough into any aspect of reality and you will find commonality and harmony.

 

As always dwai, deeply appreciate your sharings.  Thank you.

[silent thunder]

1 minute ago, old3bob said:

 

there is a purpose to evolution regardless if some deny it....

You infer what was not implied...  

 

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

You infer what was not implied...  

 

 

are you saying evolution does not need time? Since time is an illusion per your manifesto...

[johndoe2012]

From Original Perfection by Keith Dowman 

 

Quote

To overcome what appear to be emotional and intellectual obstacles, people commit themselves to disciplines of lifestyle and morality, yoga and meditation, setting themselves the goal of freedom from attachment and rebirth, but the anxiety entailed by prostituting the moment for some future benefit and striving for a conceptual goal is resolved naturally in the relaxation of nonaction. The disease of calculated endeavor and goal orientation that is spiritual materialism is healed by the spontaneous and ineluctable intuition of the pure nature of mind.

 

[silent thunder]

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

are you saying evolution does not need time? Since time is an illusion per your manifesto...

whooosh

[old3bob]

58 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

whooosh

 

we know that a whoosh takes time to pronounce 

[blue eyed snake]

On 9-4-2024 at 11:50 AM, old3bob said:

the cosmic dancer, (Lord Nataraja) both sub-atomically and across all galaxies.... 

 

 

dance,

rhythmical movement,

open and close,

bellows,

yin and yang,

now and ever,

dance...

 

[blue eyed snake]

18 hours ago, dwai said:

One could say that Motion is a consequence of change, and change is the interplay of yin and yang. 

 I sorta like this one

 

Spoiler

 

 

[silent thunder]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

we know that a whoosh takes time to pronounce 

Only in your human conditioned mind bob

[old3bob]

I'd suggest getting off the esoteric high horse which is above it all, for  in the created universe with countless beings there is time, space, seasons etc...whereas no-thing, no space, and no time, is also no man's and no gods land where evolution has ended or never was and only one being exists yet That is big enough to include said creation not as a nihilistically denied illusion but as relative reality.

 

Tao goes far and returns,  to paraphrase a saying.

Edited April 12 by old3bob

[old3bob]

"Tao goes far and returns,  to paraphrase a saying."  (and also in a way never left per my understanding)

[manitou]

On 4/9/2024 at 5:15 AM, old3bob said:

 

I'd say that any man or woman could be with ten thousand partners 10 thousand times or eat ten thousand variations of food ten thousand times, all of which would pass away and not be enough to satisfy the soul in the end. 

 

 

The satisfaction is found in the knowing of who you truly are, and the more continuously you can stay in that consciousness, the more satisfaction everything will bring to you.  It is life loving life, that's all.

[Tommy]

On 4/10/2024 at 12:08 PM, silent thunder said:

Time does not exist.  It is a human function of memory and comparison.

All is unfolding perpetually now.  There is no past or future. 

Memory of the past occurs now.  Fantasizing about the future occurs now.  It has never been not now.  Time is the illusory human experience of reconciling memory with the ever shifting unfolding of the co-arising aggregates.

Time is a function of memory. Without memory, there is no knowledge of past, present or future. And because we remember, we can see a past and the present and may be what is to be. So, in this perpetual unfolding of the now, we make preparations for the future from our knowledge of the past.

 

 

On 4/10/2024 at 1:54 PM, dwai said:

One could say that Motion is a consequence of change, and change is the interplay of yin and yang. 

Motion is a function of change in distance over the change in time. To say it is an interplay of yin and yang is to say there is something that we do not see or feel but confers change in time and space to our lives. Is it wrong or right? I have no idea. Too deep for me, I like to play in the shallow end.

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

The satisfaction is found in the knowing of who you truly are, and the more continuously you can stay in that consciousness, the more satisfaction everything will bring to you.  It is life loving life, that's all.

 

Righto which I was trying to get at,  and I'd add that that knowing is not of mind knowing or knowledge, but of Spirit knowing which sees right through mental constructs.   

[dwai]

11 hours ago, Tommy said:

Motion is a function of change in distance over the change in time. To say it is an interplay of yin and yang is to say there is something that we do not see or feel but confers change in time and space to our lives. Is it wrong or right? I have no idea. Too deep for me, I like to play in the shallow end

What do you call the movement of a fluid from a higher pressure area to lower pressure area?  
 

Yin and yang are always present and accessible to us. We just need to properly attune our senses to see and the intellect to discern. Yin/Yang are not some abstract concepts - heat expands - Yang, cold contracts - yin. Gravity attracts - yin, and so on…

 

Yin-yang interplay is that substantial and insubstantial are always trying to attain balance. That is constantly underway  at physical, mental, and  spiritual levels. 

[silent thunder]

11 hours ago, Tommy said:

Time is a function of memory. Without memory, there is no knowledge of past, present or future. And because we remember, we can see a past and the present and may be what is to be. So, in this perpetual unfolding of the now, we make preparations for the future from our knowledge of the past.

 

 

Motion is a function of change in distance over the change in time. To say it is an interplay of yin and yang is to say there is something that we do not see or feel but confers change in time and space to our lives. Is it wrong or right? I have no idea. Too deep for me, I like to play in the shallow end.

Precisely.  Time is a function of memory it is not a thing.  It is a human concept of change but there is only the present in which the change unfolds. 

 

This is the central pivot about which revolves the subtle shift in interacting with the concept of the ever unfolding present versus Time as a thing that exists and travels from past through present to some future.   There is only now.  No past.  No future.  These are mental objects that get reified into concepts that humans consider as real because they are so consistent and familiar.  My experience reveals they are experienced as real in a similar manner that trees, buildings, animals and other people in dreams seem entirely real until we wake up...

 

Time is a word/mind object/concept that is assigned and then reified into an abstract mental object by human minds to describe an experience.  The memory experience of the ever shifting nature witnessed in the perpetual unfoldingness of manifestation in the present mixed with our natural ability to project thought into possible scenarios creates a canvas upon which we assign a notion of 'time passing'.  

 

But this entire process never arises in past, or future.  Nothing ever occurs anywhen but now.  There is the Present.

 

It's all Now.

 

Past and future are mind objects that arise in thought.

Thought arises Now.

 

It's Now.  perpetually...

[old3bob]

 

if there is space there is time, with both joined at the hip so to speak...

it all begins and it all ends over and over again,  the children of the Absolute are not illusions but the Absolute Itself veiled in forms by lawful purpose. 

 

"In the beginning was the Word..."

 

or figure this: 

 “There is a beginning. There is no beginning of that beginning. There is no beginning of that no beginning of beginning. There is something. There is nothing. There is something before the beginning of something and nothing, and something before that. Suddenly there is something and nothing. But between something and nothing, I still don't really know which is something and which is nothing. Now, I've just said something, but I don't really know whether I've said anything or not.”
― Zhuangzi

 

Edited April 15 by old3bob

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

What do you call the movement of a fluid from a higher pressure area to lower pressure area?  
 

Yin and yang are always present and accessible to us. We just need to properly attune our senses to see and the intellect to discern. Yin/Yang are not some abstract concepts - heat expands - Yang, cold contracts - yin. Gravity attracts - yin, and so on…

 

Yin-yang interplay is that substantial and insubstantial are always trying to attain balance. That is constantly underway  at physical, mental, and  spiritual levels. 

High to low is system looking for equilibrium. Entropy.

 

Yin and yang are Eastern concepts. Heat expand. There is no cold. Only a lack of heat. Gravity attracts and there is no force that pushes apart. I neither believe in yin and yang nor do I disbelieve. As I said, I like to play in the shallow end. Less headaches.

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Tommy said:

High to low is system looking for equilibrium. Entropy.

That is yin-yang in play. 

5 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

Yin and yang are Eastern concepts. 

So what?  

5 hours ago, Tommy said:

Heat expand. There is no cold. Only a lack of heat. Gravity attracts and there is no force that pushes apart. 

Heat expands, The principle of expansion is called Yang. Gravity attracts - the principle of attraction is called yin. There can of course be a force that pushes apart - how do you think rockets escape earth’s gravity? 

5 hours ago, Tommy said:

I neither believe in yin and yang nor do I disbelieve. As I said, I like to play in the shallow end. Less headaches.

There is nothing to believe or disbelieve - these are metaphysical concepts - one has to understand them. 
 

[Tommy]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

That is yin-yang in play. 

So what?  

Heat expands, The principle of expansion is called Yang. Gravity attracts - the principle of attraction is called yin. There can of course be a force that pushes apart - how do you think rockets escape earth’s gravity? 

There is nothing to believe or disbelieve - these are metaphysical concepts - one has to understand them. 
 

Please do not take offense.

That is how you see it. Ying and yang. Your opinion. That is fine.

Yes, an Eastern concept. It seems that you have adopted it. That is fine too.

Heat expands, Yes, and cold contracts. But cold is the lack of heat. Opposite? Without light is darkness??

Gravity attracts as a force and is everywhere a person is. To create a force to push one away from the earth is not a natural force like gravity. So not opposite. Not really yin nor yang there.

 

In magnetism, there is a north pole and a south pole. No real monopoles.

There are negative charges by itself and positive charges by them selves.

It is however called electro-magnetism. Weird??

However, there is matter but have not found antimatter in the same quantities.

See, just examples. Yin and yang is where you wish to see it.

 

No, nothing to believe or dis-believe. These are concepts. Things thought up by a person. Understand them if you wish. Not everyone has to understand them. It isn't a requirement for anything. You are hung up on this concept of Yin and Yang. What do they call that? Being hung up on opposites? Duality?? Light and dark?? Right and wrong?? An object is neither right nor wrong unless I think it so?

 

Again, please take no offense. I am not here to argue. Like the atheist who believes in a sprit or soul. You can believe whatever you wish. But, to force it upon another is cruel and unusual propaganda. I apologize if this upsets you. It is only meant to present a different point of view.

Edited April 15 by Tommy

[dwai]

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

Please do not take offense.

That is how you see it. Ying and yang. Your opinion. That is fine.

Yes, an Eastern concept. It seems that you have adopted it. That is fine too.

Heat expands, Yes, and cold contracts. But cold is the lack of heat. Opposite? Without light is darkness??

Gravity attracts as a force and is everywhere a person is. To create a force to push one away from the earth is not a natural force like gravity. So not opposite. Not really yin nor yang there.

No offense taken, nor given. 

I'm merely trying to show you that these are metaphysical cosmological concepts - there's no woo-woo involved here. 

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

In magnetism, there is a north pole and a south pole. No real monopoles.

There are negative charges by itself and positive charges by them selves.

It is however called electro-magnetism. Weird??

However, there is matter but have not found antimatter in the same quantities.

See, just examples. Yin and yang is where you wish to see it.

Or one could say, that yin-yang is present at relative levels across the spectrum. I'd seen a very nice illustration of how yin-yang works in progressively smaller scales - some may call it a series of differentials. 

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

No, nothing to believe or dis-believe. These are concepts. Things thought up by a person. Understand them if you wish. Not everyone has to understand them. It isn't a requirement for anything. You are hung up on this concept of Yin and Yang. What do they call that? Being hung up on opposites? Duality?? Light and dark?? Right and wrong?? An object is neither right nor wrong unless I think it so?

Yin-yang are not mutually exclusive - they are interrelated. Yin contains the seed of yang, and yang contains the seed of yin. Absolute yang gives rise to Yin. And absolute yin gives rise to yang. The duality is only apparent. 

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

 

Again, please take no offense. I am not here to argue. Like the atheist who believes in a sprit or soul. You can believe whatever you wish. But, to force it upon another is cruel and unusual propaganda. I apologize if this upsets you. It is only meant to present a different point of view.

Not at all - I just felt that you didn't understand the concept, so I thought I'd help elucidate it for you.

 

[Tommy]

On 4/15/2024 at 10:27 AM, dwai said:

No offense taken, nor given. 

I'm merely trying to show you that these are metaphysical cosmological concepts - there's no woo-woo involved here. 

Or one could say, that yin-yang is present at relative levels across the spectrum. I'd seen a very nice illustration of how yin-yang works in progressively smaller scales - some may call it a series of differentials. 

Yin-yang are not mutually exclusive - they are interrelated. Yin contains the seed of yang, and yang contains the seed of yin. Absolute yang gives rise to Yin. And absolute yin gives rise to yang. The duality is only apparent. 

Not at all - I just felt that you didn't understand the concept, so I thought I'd help elucidate it for you.

 

I am Chinese and grew up with the culture of Yin and Yang. Hot air and cold air. I-Ching. Fung-Shui.  I do not reject my culture rather that I look at it from a different view. To me, it isn't absolute ... the be all or end all. It is as Ram Dass once said, "It is all grist for the mill". If one gets entangled in it then one misses the other things that are available. Of course, my parents and some  relatives use to swears by it. And in fact, my marriage was governed by it. No one cared what I thought.

 

Note: Hot air and cold air refers to the kinds foods one eats and it effects upon the body. It is all about balance.

Can be better explained in this Youtube video

 

Edited April 16 by Tommy

[manitou]

On 4/10/2024 at 9:08 AM, silent thunder said:

Time does not exist.  It is a human function of memory and comparison.

 

 

It's also a function of rotation!

[silent thunder]

Yup.  It's how our minds process the perpetual unfolding of the eternal present...

[old3bob]

Only the Absolute or the Self knows the Absolute or the Self beyond regular knowing, that is the catch while we are pondering.  

 

The Absolute or Source does provide and power (the Shakti of) all permutations of its Self  which are connected so to speak,  but it is also transcendent to them,  thus and namely not bound to or by the laws that they are under per the "One" of all time and space which some here are  strangely in a convoluted denial of?  (which to me is like a denial of pure Shakti working there-in  although it is not divorced from the Absolute or the Self, thus being an inseparable first manifest aspect)  In other words the unmanifest is connected to the manifest with there being no running away from the manifest and all of its laws.

Edited Wednesday at 10:50 PM by old3bob