"Beginnings" - first (mis-)steps n' (dis)orientation on the path

[Trunk]

There's a variations of the microcosmic orbit thread in the Daoism section, which comments on, inspired me towards ... this broader topic of "Beginnings".

 

I think that there is a wide variety of aspirants here, with a wide variety of background ... hopefully mostly anectotal (we might touch on classical complete perfection, but I'm not obsessing on it)... and this might vary widely depending on tradition and specific internal path, goal.

 

When you "started", was there some broad orientation/one piece maybe/method/teaching that you received that was especially helpful? (or, on the other hand, led to trouble?)

 

... and if you were to give some very short piece of advice, (doesn't have to cover all the bases or anything) for beginning?

[steve]

In the beginning was disorientation, my sense of "reality" was tickled by entheogens and reading Castaneda excited my spiritual curiosity. Later, the horrors of Rwanda and Yugoslavia caused me to investigate what humanity means and helped me to begin looking for purpose.

 

A transmission through the writings of Jiddu Krishnamurti, got me to orient - to actively turn the light around, to look at my own condition, my subjective experience and interpretation of it. To see that I need to actually do the work rather than think and talk about it. To see the primacy of my personal perception in creating reality and to investigate and ultimately broaden that into empathy based on perspective.

 

Anthony Demello's admonishment to WAKE UP. To be aware of my own patterns, drives, and tendency to label experience rather than open to it. To be aware in order to give oneself the possibility of choice, expressing values rather than conditioning.  

 

And Ramana and Nisargadatta who reminded me to continually ask 'who/what is this sense of I?' with perseverance and openness.

 

From the precision of attention and transformation of Daoist practice to the simple suggestion of the Bönpo to "leave it as it is."

 

To simply being here, sharing this path and experience with all of you and to continue to observe and learn and course correct when I stray. 

 

[Geof Nanto]

For me it was a matter of change or die. I wrote about it a while back in my PPD. 

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, Trunk said:

There's a variations of the microcosmic orbit thread in the Daoism section, which comments on, inspired me towards ... this broader topic of "Beginnings".

 

I think that there is a wide variety of aspirants here, with a wide variety of background ... hopefully mostly anectotal (we might touch on classical complete perfection, but I'm not obsessing on it)... and this might vary widely depending on tradition and specific internal path, goal.

 

When you "started", was there some broad orientation/one piece maybe/method/teaching that you received that was especially helpful? (or, on the other hand, led to trouble?)

 

... and if you were to give some very short piece of advice, (doesn't have to cover all the bases or anything) for beginning?
 

 

 

I was unsatisfied with my mind, in high school.  In my senior year, a friend pointed me to the illustrations of zazen in the back of "The Three Pillars of Zen", by Kapleau, and I started to try to sit cross-legged on the floor for five or ten minutes at a stretch.

 

A few years later, another friend took me to hear the lectures of a Zen teacher from Japan.  Sitting was still very uncomfortable for me after about twenty minutes, but I persevered.  

The advice I got from that teacher was "take your time with the lotus".  At one point I could sit about 35 minutes in the lotus, did so through a five day sesshin, but now I only sit a sloppy half-lotus, and often only for 25 minutes.  Pretty much have sat in the mornings when I first get up, and at night before I go to bed, for all of my adult life now. 

 

The sitting has been the teacher, in my life, and I'm grateful every day.

 

 

Edited March 16 by Mark Foote

[Elysium]

12 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

The advice I got from that teacher was "take your time with the lotus".  At one point I could sit about 35 minutes in the lotus, did so through a five day sesshin, but now I only sit a sloppy half-lotus, and often only for 25 minutes.  Pretty much have sat in the mornings when I first get up, and at night before I go to bed, for all of my adult life now. 

Hey Mark, how did you reach the Lotus position? I can barely do half-lotus and how good I do it is a matter of question. I did notice however, that meditation quality is increased with half-lotus compared to good old cross-legged.

[Apech]

The best beginning advice I got was almost accidental from a friend and not a teacher.  I had been mediating for a few years and tried everything, mantras, visualisation, breath counting and so on - and I felt very frustrated that nothing happened.  I was chatting to a friend who also meditated and told them what was (not) happening and they said 'why don't you stop all that and just look at your mind'.  So I tried this with immediate effect, like a dam bursting my mind opened up to a profound experience.

 

 

[silent thunder]

these three words resonate like vajra still...

 

Spoiler

rest as awareness

 

[steve]

2 hours ago, Elysium said:

Hey Mark, how did you reach the Lotus position? I can barely do half-lotus and how good I do it is a matter of question. I did notice however, that meditation quality is increased with half-lotus compared to good old cross-legged.

 

While waiting for Mark to respond, here are books and websites that offer guidance in stretching to achieve lotus.

One of my fav books is Becoming the Lotus by Martin Faulks.

 

Here is a brief video guide - 

 

 

The key is patience and perseverence.

Good luck!

 

[Elysium]

1 hour ago, steve said:

One of my fav books is Becoming the Lotus by Martin Faulks.

I have that one! Love Martin, one of the best students of Franz Bardons work.

 

Thank you for the additional material. I hear you, I won't try to force it and get an injury afterwards.

[Mark Foote]

11 hours ago, Elysium said:

Hey Mark, how did you reach the Lotus position? I can barely do half-lotus and how good I do it is a matter of question. I did notice however, that meditation quality is increased with half-lotus compared to good old cross-legged.
 

 

 

Took me a lot of years, of always having it in mind and sitting mostly half-lotus.  

Dennis Merkel, Zen teacher who at one point in time was associated with the L. A. Zen Center, says he sat half-lotus for a couple of decades, then full-lotus for a couple, and now Burmese for a decade or so (ankles on the ground, one leg in front of the others).  He has transmission in both the Rinzai and Soto traditions, if I understand correctly.

 

I should confess, when I did that five-day sesshin at Jikoji Zen Center, they pretty much alternated 40- and 30- minute sittings, and I had to uncork my lotus at about 35 minutes every time on the 40 minute sittings.  Very embarassing, but I was determined not to hurt my knees, and I consistently felt something in my knees at about 35 minutes.

Last I heard, the periods at L. A. Zen Center sesshins are 35 minutes, except for one initial 50 minute sitting--guess I'm not the only one.

Maybe a couple of years after that five-day sesshin, I began to feel something in my knees when I was out walking, and I decided to forget about the lotus and 40-minutes and just go with a sloppy half-lotus for 25 minutes.  My knees returned to normal.

Lately I sit beyond 25 minutes a lot, in the half-lotus (or Burmese, if my ankle falls off the opposite calf, as it seems to do with the right leg up).  Seems like I have to finish the time I feel is mandatory, before I can "just sit".

 

But my sitting has changed.  I have a better idea, how to turn over the reins:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages.

 

 

I don't know what Apech means by "look at your mind", but that's what I'm doing--looking at the location of my awareness, instead of the contents.

 

When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.

 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”.
 

 

Turn it around, let the "where" not the "who" act past 20 minutes or so (sooner if you can), and your knees will thank you.

Issho Fujita, demonstrating a relationship between "one-pointedness of mind" and the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation in zazen:
 

 

 

Shunryu Suzuki, describing to his students how they could avoid pain in their legs in sitting:

 

If you are going to fall, you know, from, for instance, from the tree to the ground, the moment you, you know, leave the branch you lose your function of the body. But if you don’t, you know, there is a pretty long time before you reach to the ground. And there may be some branch, you know. So you can catch the branch or you can do something. But because you lose function of your body, you know [laughs], before you reach to the ground, you may lose your conscious[ness]. 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, Shunryu Suzuki; August Sesshin Lecture; San Francisco, August 6, 1969)

 

Dogen:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

("Genjo Koan", tr Tanahashi)

 

 

The "where", as the source of the activity of the body from outbreath to inbreath, and from inbreath to outbreath:
 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… 

 

(ibid)

 

... the Blessed One addressed the monks. "Whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for a day & night... for a day... for the interval that it takes to eat a meal... for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up four morsels of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedlessly. They develop mindfulness of death slowly for the sake of ending the effluents.

 

"But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.

(AN 6.19 PTS: A iii 303; Maranassati Sutta: Mindfulness of Death (1) tr Thanissaro Bhikkhu)

 

 

Edited March 17 by Mark Foote

[Master Logray]

13 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I should confess, when I did that five-day sesshin at Jikoji Zen Center, they pretty much alternated 40- and 30- minute sittings, and I had to uncork my lotus at about 35 minutes every time on the 40 minute sittings.  Very embarassing, but I was determined not to hurt my knees, and I consistently felt something in my knees at about 35 minutes.

Last I heard, the periods at L. A. Zen Center sesshins are 35 minutes, except for one initial 50 minute sitting--guess I'm not the only one.

Maybe a couple of years after that five-day sesshin, I began to feel something in my knees when I was out walking, and I decided to forget about the lotus and 40-minutes and just go with a sloppy half-lotus for 25 minutes.  My knees returned to normal.

Lately I sit beyond 25 minutes a lot, in the half-lotus (or Burmese, if my ankle falls off the opposite calf, as it seems to do with the right leg up).  Seems like I have to finish the time I feel is mandatory, before I can "just sit".

 

 

 

Zen doesn't improve the body, so are some Taoist practices in the early stage.  When your body ages, maintain a full lotus could be giving harmful effects.   Not only the knee, but the lower back too.  

 

In Taoist training, the person will easily snap into place when the Chi comes.   The problem is the long period before getting the real Chi.  Damages could have been done.

 

For older people especially who starts middle aged, it is better to take it easy, or even easier along the way.   Anyhow your objective is on the mind, why struggle in pain for decades. 

 

 

[Apech]

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

I don't know what Apech means by "look at your mind", but that's what I'm doing--looking at the location of my awareness, instead of the contents.

 

 

 

My post above is what happened when I was 19.  It was much later in my 40's that I discovered that what I had been doing accorded with the Mahamudra meditation approach.  It was either good karma or a happy accident.

 

If you are not familiar with Mahamudra I can recommend this book, which explains everything about how to do this.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Boundless-Wisdom-Mahamudra-Practice-Manual-ebook/dp/B07YVGT9X9?ref_=ast_author_dp&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.j5nHXepjdJFh0TqP-5jcAm-whLwvFNqpjehrSqJxLX7bvrYt5sCiuOYANJsJgCb5aCpHyJKzPrPMAGAJeWIm03peoIvoyVbKVuZyfYP19JlOxLVPFsjTRHCYK-V4zNtNGVbbsXTOYo0sNtMSNRnWwQPEI8FWjaCHjiyZDSxESPlgGkP3MLLBHPOdS_CKTkKns_6ya2ucsmYB487PENRtyB6dd9OEHR3RNw6OCdk8600.6BG6t6u8TnJcKHgzcFV87xMhlcQzMfSr7fC-mPZw788&dib_tag=AUTHOR

[dwai]

 I was reeling from the untimely death of my father some 30 years ago (he was 54 when he passed), and I started to meditate to make sense, or maybe just to cope with the feeling of despondency that set in.
 

Perhaps the first sign of there being a “witness” happened as his corpse lay in the living room of our house, as is the Hindu custom, with hundreds of friends coming to pay their last respects. As I was bawling my eyes out, something separated from this bawling, pitiful situation and observed the room, the entire scenario. Almost like I had a drone footage of the entire room from a high ceiling as the situation was unfolding. 

 

anyway, fast forward a couple of years, and I was “trying to meditate”. Until one day,  as I lay down on the living room couch, i found myself floating in total darkness - a void if there can be one. At a distance I saw a blue luminescence. As soon as I saw it, I seemed to float into that space. There I saw a bluish white egg, crackling with energy. As I watched, it spun slowly, and within it I saw Lord Krishna, and then it spun again, and I saw the Buddha, it picked up speed, and soon the Krishna and Buddha merged into one and faster still until there was only the egg. And then, a silent explosion (I guess that is what a supernova event must be like). And I saw galaxies and stars flying by me. 

[Mark Foote]

On 3/18/2024 at 5:11 AM, Apech said:

 

My post above is what happened when I was 19.  It was much later in my 40's that I discovered that what I had been doing accorded with the Mahamudra meditation approach.  It was either good karma or a happy accident.

 

If you are not familiar with Mahamudra I can recommend this book, which explains everything about how to do this.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Boundless-Wisdom-Mahamudra-Practice-Manual/dp/0996505946?asin=0996505946&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1
 

 

 

Looking again and again at the imperceptible mind,

You come to know your own undeluded nature.

May you abide undiluted by artificial fixation

without wavering, just like space.

(A short Mahamudra prayer composed by Shamar Rinpoche, and in his own handwriting, June 18, 1987; Halscheid, Germany)

 

 

That, from the forward of the book.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 3/17/2024 at 5:22 AM, Elysium said:

Hey Mark, how did you reach the Lotus position? I can barely do half-lotus and how good I do it is a matter of question. I did notice however, that meditation quality is increased with half-lotus compared to good old cross-legged.
 

 

I cleaned up my response to your question, Elysium, and posted the result on my site:
 

Knees on the Ground

 

 

A friend tells me he had some success doing exercises, but I've never had great luck that way.