But how much of our actions are by choice?

[Elysium]

Firstly, apologies if this thread would have been better suited to another subforum.

 

So I am having a little contemplation while I am browsing through. And it dawned on me that I can only describe myself as a "sleepwalker" for a lack of better term, as if I am more of a program running endlessly rather than a concious being making concious choices.

 

Why do I have this monkey mind running endlessly on background for example? Why do I move so much even when sitting/lying down? Why do the things that irk me, do irk me? Do I not have a say in it? Why do I switch between apps constantly even while I am typing this?

 

Seems like a giant waste of energy more I think about it.

[silent thunder]

My experience has for some two decades now been that what folks refer to as choice is actually conditioned response to stimulus that occurs beneath the threshhold of personality consciousness.

 

After we process the conditioned response, if we analyze it, we then call this making a choice or a demonstration of free will.

 

I do not experience free will or choice in local awareness.

[Maddie]

Ah I love these free will questions. Based upon the way the mind works and past conditioning I do not think free will exists. I will qualify that because often, verry often when you say you don't think there is free will, people assume you said you do not believe there is will. I do think there is a will, because we make choices during all our waking hours constantly. I do however understand that these choices are influenced and based upon past conditioning and there for are not completely "free". 

[steve]

8 hours ago, Elysium said:

Firstly, apologies if this thread would have been better suited to another subforum.

Seems as good a place as any.

 

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So I am having a little contemplation while I am browsing through. And it dawned on me that I can only describe myself as a "sleepwalker" for a lack of better term, as if I am more of a program running endlessly rather than a concious being making concious choices.

This is an astute and insightful observation. Most behaviors seem to be conditioned responses. The sense of self that claims to be the one who makes choices is simply an observer. There is some fascinating research that bears this out. 

 

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Why do I have this monkey mind running endlessly on background for example? Why do I move so much even when sitting/lying down? Why do the things that irk me, do irk me? Do I not have a say in it? Why do I switch between apps constantly even while I am typing this?

Why? Why? Why?!

The mind is very curious, always looking for explanations, often looking for someone to blame. It is a wonderful and powerful tool, it put the keyboard and screen in front of us so that we can ask each other these questions, free of restrictions of time and space. It is also the cause of so much pain and misery! The mind is insatiable and unrelenting. I suspect the answer to the question why is because these specific characteristics have given us an evolutionary advantage.

 

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Seems like a giant waste of energy more I think about it.

Yes, so much time and energy spent in endless loops of rumination. We’re even thinking and talking about thinking too much!
 

When we begin to see the endless, often pointless activity of the mind it can be exhausting, even frightening. Sure there is some degree of analysis and reflection that is beneficial and important but so much is unnecessary, even dysfunctional. 

 

This is the basis of a simple meditation practice - sit quietly and reflect on the activity of mind. Look back as far as you remember and slowly work forward in time, noticing just how much time, energy, and effort have been spent in thinking, worrying, over-analyzing,  not finding a solution, disengaged from life and loved ones. How much time is spent lost in unproductive thought each hour, each day, over a decade, over a lifetime. Stay with this for a while, feeling that sensation of being lost in thought, how it pulls, disconnects, controls and amplifies problems through fears, judgments, criticism, …  all of it. When you begin to feel overwhelmed by the sheer scale of it, let it all go completely. Like coming home from a long arduous journey and dropping into your comfy bed you’ve been missing for so long. Feel how good and necessary it feels to just give the mind a rest. Release into the spaciousness of inner silence, allowing the thinker to rest fully and deeply. Not only angry or frustrated with it, also grateful and concerned for its well being, it is an important and beloved part of us after all. Feel the comfort and support of that space and openness and stay with it as long as you can. As more thoughts arise, let them come and go as they will but keep returning to the open, restful space that is the source .

 

Thoughts and questions are wonderful and the clear, spacious awareness that gives rise to those thoughts has infinitely more potential than the limited sense of me that refers to itself as the thinker. The best, most creative answers and ideas come spontaneously, from nowhere, from simple presence and openness, the source of true creativity. My practice involves cultivating trust in the silence, in the openness of clear presence. We tend to always feel the need to fill this space but when we get more familiar with it the possibilities are limitless, not only for ourselves but for everyone around us. We’re never more supportive for others than when we are present but quiet, listening to what they are saying, to what they need, rather than anticipating, projecting, and pushing on them what we think they need.

 

Anyway, enough of a rant. I trust in the source of thoughts more than the thoughts themselves. The thoughts are often reactive and misguided, though sometimes brilliant. The source is pure and brilliance happens mostly when we’re quiet enough to allow the source to speak with our voice and act with our hands. This is where the various spiritual traditions converge for me.

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Elysium said:

Firstly, apologies if this thread would have been better suited to another subforum.

 

So I am having a little contemplation while I am browsing through. And it dawned on me that I can only describe myself as a "sleepwalker" for a lack of better term, as if I am more of a program running endlessly rather than a concious being making concious choices.

 

Why do I have this monkey mind running endlessly on background for example? Why do I move so much even when sitting/lying down? Why do the things that irk me, do irk me? Do I not have a say in it? Why do I switch between apps constantly even while I am typing this?

 

Seems like a giant waste of energy more I think about it.

 

You can have 'fun' with it    

 

One day I decided NOT to decide anything  (else )  and be led by 'outside'  or 'other' forces .

 

What an interesting day that was !  In retrospect, it might have been the day that I was most clear and following my '  own will'.    

 

There where a few nodes of difficulty where " I "  tried to rebel or subvert the process .

 

results included ; fun ,  a rescue of a really messed up person ,  getting a new friend ,   gaining a great gardener house sitter for a while , 2 people I knew that where rather hopeless and 'insignificant '  emerging and shining ,  a marriage   ..... 

 

Today I am in 'full control '        probably sit around and not do much , cut some grass and go to a bull shit meeting later .

 

Accomplishments ?  ...... lived another day . 

Edited February 20 by Nungali

[Mark Foote]

10 hours ago, Elysium said:

 

Why do I have this monkey mind running endlessly on background for example? Why do I move so much even when sitting/lying down? Why do the things that irk me, do irk me? Do I not have a say in it? Why do I switch between apps constantly even while I am typing this?

 

 

 

As [one] abides in body contemplating body, either some bodily object arises. or bodily discomfort or drowsiness of mind scatters [one’s] thoughts abroad to externals. Thereupon… [one’s] attention should be directed to some pleasurable object of thought. As [one] thus directs it to some pleasurable object of thought. delight springs up in [one’s being]. In [one] thus delighted, arises zest. Full of zest [one’s] body is calmed down. With body so calmed [one] experiences ease. The mind of one at ease is concentrated. [One] thus reflects: The aim on which I set my mind I have attained. Come. let me withdraw my mind (from the pleasurable object of thought). So [one] withdraws [one’s] mind therefrom, and neither starts nor carries on thought-process. Thus [one] is fully conscious: I am without thought initial or sustained. I am inwardly mindful. I am at ease.

 

Again … [one] abides contemplating feelings … mind… [one] abides contemplating mind-states in mind-states… [as before with the body].

 

Such… is the practice for the direction of mind.

 

And what… is the practice for the non-direction of mind? [First,] by not directing [one’s] mind to externals, [one] is fully aware: My mind is not directed to externals. Then [one] is fully aware: My mind is not concentrated either on what is before or on what is behind, but it is set free, it is undirected. Then [one] is fully aware: In body contemplatlng body I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease.

 

And [one] does the same with regard to feelings … to mind… and mind-states. Thus [one] is fully aware: In mind-states contemplating mind-states I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease.”

 

(SN V 155-156, Vol V pp 135-136)

 

 

If you’re studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still.

 

(“Lancet of Seated Meditation”, Dogen, quote attributed to Great Master Hung-tao of Yueh shan, tr. Carl Bielefeldt “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, 1st Ed.)

 

 

Last but not least:

 

So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom.
 

(“Thursday Morning Lectures”, November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added)
 

 

There’s a particular transition in zazen that I believe Suzuki was referring to. Here’s a description I made of that transition:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(Common Ground)
 

 

The mind is “concentrated in the breathing” when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention. If the presence of mind continues the placement of attention by the movement of breath, then the role of the mind is clear–that’s the way I read the transcript.

 

(What Shunryu Suzuki Actually Said)

 

 

[thelerner]

7 hours ago, silent thunder said:

My experience has for some two decades now been that what folks refer to as choice is actually conditioned response to stimulus that occurs beneath the threshhold of personality consciousness.

 

After we process the conditioned response, if we analyze it, we then call this making a choice or a demonstration of free will.

 

I do not experience free will or choice in local awareness.

I agree.  Often our unconscious makes the decision and our brains quickly make up excuses to quickly agree.  

Not always and with logic and definitions we can learn our way out of it.   

[snowymountains]

You are asking the right questions.

 

Unless you bring the unconscious to the conscious, the answer is not much.

The work to do so extends quite a bit beyond mindfulness, which however is an important first step.

 

There's really no other way than doing the work, which of course is a long term project.

 

While all traditions, be it Theravada or Zen, or anything are a good and valuable complement which is great, the real work can only be done in therapy.

[Elysium]

Seems like this is a condition that can be reversed or mitigated at the very least.  Also seems like an impossible task however, after all one lives their lives like this.

[old3bob]

we have to have an "x" amount of will to surrender it,  (to the greater will) "The still small voice" knows no bounds when will follows it, as in indomitable and irresistible.... 

Edited February 21 by old3bob

[old3bob]

doubtful or scattered intellectual concepts about will are not that of a being unified in & rooted in the greater and lasting truth,  and that truth has no equal in power.  Btw, evil is unified (so to speak) in fear and lies but has no lasting root thus it will devour or destroy everyone and everything it can get away with to try & maintain its great untruth which it can not do against the Great Way or Great Tao. 

Edited February 21 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

11 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Unless you bring the unconscious to the conscious, the answer is not much.

 

 

 

Other way 'round, for me--it's bring the conscious to the unconscious:

 

There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(Common Ground)

 

 

 

Edited February 21 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, Elysium said:

Seems like this is a condition that can be reversed or mitigated at the very least.  Also seems like an impossible task however, after all one lives their lives like this.
 

 

 

I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom. 

 

("To Enjoy Our Life")