Privation Inoculum

[Apotheose]

…. 

Edited April 8 by Apotheose

[Jenn]

Personally, I think it would be next to impossible to free yourself of those things that limit you (desires, suppressed emotions, et) in a life of ease and wealth.  For a few reasons:

 

1) When your life is already "good" and easy, is there really any reason to delve into the depths of your pain, obsessions, and societal programming? Would you even be aware of such things? Even, if you decided to do so, would you ever delve deeper than the superficial? How far would you really take it if it meant sacrificing your "happiness" and the comforts you have? I can say personally that when my life was easiest were the periods with the least personal growth, let alone purposefully dragging myself through the worst parts of myself, even if, in the end, it would have benefited me to do so. The real growth happened when life forced my hand. What stands in the way becomes the way - without obstacles to overcome we stagnate. 

 

2) From my experience, a lot of the things we need to free ourselves from are things we are completely oblivious to.  It is the hardships that open our eyes to what is really going on.  To pain, we have been carrying with us, to the conditioning we have that is counter to our best interests, to ways in which we have become numb or hard, to the darkest parts of our personality, and to our ego.  We spend our lifetime hiding safely away from ourselves and our pain even though it is only a temporary illusion and harms us much more than simply facing who we are.  We need something pretty fricken powerful to force us out of our illusions to do the hard work within ourselves.  If we don't face hardships in life, how would we ever know what illusions we have?  Hard times cast light on things we don't want to see (even if seeing them frees us) or are completely oblivious to.  

 

3) By stepping away from society and all its trappings, you start to realize how ridiculous everything is.  When we're in society, it's too easy to stay caught up in the silly nonsense of modern-day living and stay blind to what is really going on and what really matters.  It gives perspective.

 

I don't think you need a terrible tragedy per se, but I don't see how you could do it without facing hardships. Most people are obsessed with power / control, at least to some extent; the only way to truly get past that obsession is to understand it completely and free yourself.  How would you even scratch the surface of what power really is within us if you have never truly experienced powerlessness?  Same with money, how can you really understand the hold it has on you if you have never faced a period of poverty? 

 

TLDR: We are lazy and happy in our illusions / acquired mind when times are good.  We are satisfied, so we stay the course and stagnate. It is only when our sense of self is threatened or we face real hardship that we are driven to change.  The deeper and more repressed the illusion / emotion / desire, the bigger kick in the pants we need in order to wake up and dislodge it.  Ultimately it depends on how deep you want to go, you might find removing traumas / etc while living in society is enough to make you happy, but if you want to go as deep as you can / truly free yourself, I don't think you can do it without hardship and time away from mainstream life.

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, Jenn said:

... TLDR …

Thanks for the TLDR.  Yes it comes naturally imo, happy proceeds and unhappy examines. 

[Cobie]

Seems to me to fit this thread too:

 

25 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

For me, the first of the four truths precipitates the others.  That is to say, Gautama did not always drink beer, but when he did, he drank "Four Truths" brand.  When suffering is present, the other three of the four truths are equally valid and apply (when suffering is not present, no need to drink "Four Truths" brand).

 

 

Edited January 30 by Cobie

[Daniel]

On 1/29/2024 at 11:02 PM, Apotheose said:

Have you ever noticed that Great Mystics have purposely deprived themselves from having comfortable conditions? Like resigning wealth and embracing poverty etc...

 

What is your opinion on this?

 

I think it happens naturally.  The mystic's reward and pleasure is from exploring, encountering and engaging "mystery".  Material "creature comforts" are not valued.  There is no reward in those things.  They are comforted in other ways.

[Apotheose]

Maybe @Nungali, @NaturaNaturans and @snowymountains would want to give their perspectives on this.

 

I’m sure you’d add much to the discussion.

[snowymountains]

Well, winning the lottery doesn't help psychological woes, therapy does.

 

Usually people need some form of life crisis to shake them and develop. Of course some will continue being nihilists after the crisis.

So I don't have an answer that fits all sizes.

 

I do believe in what the Buddha said on this though.

That clinging to things or phenomena that bring pleasantness ultimately brings unhappiness, as these things or phenomena are impermanent and thus bound to cause unhappiness when they disappear.

One needs to interpret this in context though, the message is not along the lines of never eat ice cream nor have sex because they're pleasant, it's more like do not cling/accept they're impermanent, otherwise you'll be devastated when you can't eat ice-cream or you have a partner loss.

Edited January 31 by snowymountains

[Sanity Check]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:02 PM, Apotheose said:

 

Have you ever noticed that Great Mystics have purposely deprived themselves from having comfortable conditions?

 

 

 

...

 

Quote

Patrick Geddes: Conditions of degeneration in the organic world are approximately known. These conditions are often of two distinct kinds, deprivation of food, light, etc. so leading to imperfect nutrition and enervation; the other, a life of repose, with abundant supply of food and decreased exposure to the dangers of the environment. It is noteworthy that while the former only depresses, or at most distinguishes the specific type, the latter, through the disuse of the nervous and other structures etc. which such a simplification of life involves, brings about that far more insidious and through degeneration seen in the life history of myriads of parasites.

 

 

I think the keyword used to describe your hedonic treadmill is adaptation.

 

Evolutionary adaptations are expressed as DNA in a genetic code. Which can be expressed as information and analyzed in terms of thermodynamics and energy. 

 

Energy is relevant in learning and adapting to new environments. Humans are known for having a tailbone, with no tail. If adaptations are not utilized they are actively shed as regressive traits.

 

The general pattern would be one where a person temporarily achieved a higher energy state. Due to winning the lottery, etc. Like a satellite using its propulsion to temporarily achieve higher orbit. Only for the orbit to later decay back to its original energy state and lower altitude. 

 

There are parables and teachings encouraging religious and spiritual advocates to cultivate a mindset of thankfulness and appreciation. The holiday of thanksgiving in the USA is but one example. I think most of us are stubborn enough to not recognize the health aspect to cultivating a thankful and appreciative mentality. Unless circumstances force us to.

 

[NaturaNaturans]

20 hours ago, Apotheose said:

Maybe @Nungali, @NaturaNaturans and @snowymountains would want to give their perspectives on this.

 

I’m sure you’d add much to the discussion.

Not to much sir, but a little. 
 

On happiness: I have heard that we all have a baseline. Events can draw us down or lift us up, but only for a while; sooner or later we return to our «natural state.» I had a dream about this, now i wish i remember it.

 

On spolitude or leaving the tribe: this one is pretty universal, I think. We have shamans going to the wildernes before returning, initiation/comming of age rituals, the koryos (indo-european in origin, but found in many decended cultures), monks, Jesus in the desert… I am sure Nungalina knows of a million others.

 

Interrestingly, depressed people aslo find a need for solitude (nedlesset to say: no medical advice here), and i have also heard that the dreadfull, sterile enviorment in hospitals are designed that way for a reason: because a low stimuli enviorment have a healing effect.

 

So maybe it is a way to fine, or get in tune, with our true self (not the persona)?

 

If we can live in bliss all the time? My western mind says no, day is defined by night, but then again, there certainly seem to be a few gems out there who are able to achieve both higher and longer periods of bliss. 

 

Spoiler

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked.  Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna.  The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

 

The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”

 

The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos.  I have a full and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

 

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”

 

“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part.  When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”

 

“Millions – then what?”

 

The American said, “Then you would retire.  Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

 

[NaturaNaturans]

On 30.1.2024 at 8:02 AM, Apotheose said:

Have you ever noticed that Great Mystics have purposely deprived themselves from having comfortable conditions? Like resigning wealth and embracing poverty etc... By 'privation inoculum' I mean 'induced privation' - the act of depriving oneself of certain conditions. In your perspective, which would be the purposes of such practices?

I know that I hung on a windy tree
nine long nights,
wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin,
myself to myself,
on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run.

No bread did they give me nor a drink from a horn,
downwards I peered;
I took up the runes,
screaming I took them,
then I fell back from there

[NaturaNaturans]

How could I forget the legend:

 

«Thrilled to meet the famous thinker, Alexander asked if there was any favor he might do for him. To that, Diogenes replied:

“Move a little to the right; you are blocking my sun.”

Alexander then declared, “If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes.”   This famous anecdote is known across the world.»

https://greekreporter.com/2023/10/18/alexander-great-diogenes-philosophy/

 

Btw, what does the tittle mean?

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Not to much sir, but a little. 
 

On happiness: I have heard that we all have a baseline. Events can draw us down or lift us up, but only for a while; sooner or later we return to our «natural state.» I had a dream about this, now i wish i remember it.

 

On spolitude or leaving the tribe: this one is pretty universal, I think. We have shamans going to the wildernes before returning, initiation/comming of age rituals, the koryos (indo-european in origin, but found in many decended cultures), monks, Jesus in the desert… I am sure Nungalina knows of a million others.

 

Interrestingly, depressed people aslo find a need for solitude (nedlesset to say: no medical advice here), and i have also heard that the dreadfull, sterile enviorment in hospitals are designed that way for a reason: because a low stimuli enviorment have a healing effect.

 

So maybe it is a way to fine, or get in tune, with our true self (not the persona)?

 

If we can live in bliss all the time? My western mind says no, day is defined by night, but then again, there certainly seem to be a few gems out there who are able to achieve both higher and longer periods of bliss. 

 

  Hide contents

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked.  Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna.  The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

 

The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”

 

The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos.  I have a full and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

 

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”

 

“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part.  When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”

 

“Millions – then what?”

 

The American said, “Then you would retire.  Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

 

 

That is nearly an exact copy of conversations I used to have when I worked as a 'menial' in the film industry ;

 

"You are  , smart enough, have enough contacts, well placed, etc to  run your own department , why are you wasting your time .... ?"

 

" And then what ? " - on the converse goes as above , I ask 'What about you , whats your end game / aim ? "

 

then they describe mostly what I got - the important stuff, that is . . . not the jet skis , etc .  I say " But I already got all that , I just do the occasional few months stint here for some pocket money ..... it aint no career , no way ! "

 

Same to my boss then ; ' No way am I going to do all that admin , tax, organisation, responsibility and others letting you down to impact on your responsibility and reputation ....  I'd rather chop carrots, drive cars , and order people around  and then stick my hand out at the end of the week, and thats it !  I dont want anything to interfere overtly with my real life . "

 

Boss's response  ?

 

bad day ; " Fuck off ! "

 

good day : " Want to  swap jobs ? "

 

Its obviously a problem with our society, views and conditionings , instilled by that society ..... wecome to the machine .

[Nungali]

On 01/02/2024 at 7:22 AM, Apotheose said:

Maybe @Nungali, @NaturaNaturans and @snowymountains would want to give their perspectives on this.

 

I’m sure you’d add much to the discussion.

 

Its standard magical training , one should undergo a period of it .

" ...

THEOREMS

I. The world progresses by virtue of the appearance of Christs (geniuses).

II. Christs (geniuses) are men with super-consciousness of the highest order.

III. Super-consciousnes of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.

Therefore, by employing the quintessence of known methods we cause the world to progress.

ESSENTIALS OF METHOD

I. Theology is immaterial; for both Buddha and St. Ignatius were Christs.

II. Morality is immaterial; for both Socrates and Mohammed were Christs.

III. Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attain it. The essential acts are retirement and concentration — as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic. "

... 

 

As long as the basic essentials in life are supplied , an awe, joy , abiding happiness, etc.  can seem as a  natural state in  humans .... in the right social conditions , and that is mostly pre-western civilisation societies , then pre industrial revolution ,  before that , mostly noticed in indigenous or 'tribal' societies .  Of course , the 'conflict urge '  ( war ) also seems another natural state of humans . 

 

Modern western society , and perhaps because of the 'age' we are in  ( the age of the individual )  it is an unhealthy way for primates to structure their societies , they prefer extended families . . .  and of course with periods of 'isolation'   - which in some indigenous societies I know , are required for good development of the  individual and their society .

 

Also I have some posts here on DBs  on  Eudamonai ' .... if the search engine works for you .

 

On another note , I find I am constantly thankful and appreciative for what I have ... it seems miraculous mysterious and wonderful .  That includes the idea that just being alive ... even 'existing' is .... well, according to the 'white school of magick' ; existence is pure joy .

 

I have been very close to death a few times , some 'strange survivals' , one was a medical issue  that seemed to be surfacing with multiple symptoms . I had already had a good life back then and if 'this was it' then I was happy and satisfied  ... ready for my death .

 

That was a phenomenal state of consciousness to be in ;  every blade of grass, insect , cloud , passing by was some type of existential wonder .   Then it turned out the symptoms where all something else , and I got cured, and then ended up having a relationship with a beautiful woman with three babies  !  Something I never encountered before  ( the three boy babies ) wow , what a trip , that was 9 years back .  Still going , still having great things given to me  ..... I'm not sure why I am still alive ? I retired from just about everything some time back   .... so I thought 

 

[blue eyed snake]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

I'm not sure why I am still alive ? I retired from just about everything some time back   .... so I thought