Sanity Check Posted January 2 Recently, I cut down more than 20 small invasive trees using small hand saws (as pictured above). I was wondering if some degree of qigong training would make it easier for a saw blade to cut wood. If the arm has a greater quantity of qi flowing through it and is gripping the handle of a saw. Would the saw somehow benefit from this in terms of it being able to cut better. Is there a technique for limiting flow of qigong energy through an arm or hand to test a hypothesis of whether qi flow makes a difference. I ask this as some have commented at the speed at which I can cut through things with a hand saw. As it seems unusually fast. Maybe its due to me not looking like someone who used to be able to bench press near to 2x their body weight. I look more like a stereotypical geek these days. I also enjoy overthinking things. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted January 2 Maybe not qi, but flow, a close relative, might make a difference. Starting the cutting motion from your center, transmitting the force through your arm, whole body flowing back and forth as you cut. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted January 2 I prefer a pruning saw for small trees and branches. Nothing to do with qi but the curved blade is an advantage. I think the main mistake to make is to tense the arm too much - if you can relax the arm and let the blade do its work it is better. Perhaps tensing the arm inhibits qi - possibly. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 2 9 hours ago, Sanity Check said: Recently, I cut down more than 20 small invasive trees using small hand saws (as pictured above). I was wondering if some degree of qigong training would make it easier for a saw blade to cut wood. If the arm has a greater quantity of qi flowing through it and is gripping the handle of a saw. Would the saw somehow benefit from this in terms of it being able to cut better. Is there a technique for limiting flow of qigong energy through an arm or hand to test a hypothesis of whether qi flow makes a difference. I ask this as some have commented at the speed at which I can cut through things with a hand saw. As it seems unusually fast. Maybe its due to me not looking like someone who used to be able to bench press near to 2x their body weight. I look more like a stereotypical geek these days. I also enjoy overthinking things. Regarding 'flow' variation ....just make the flow less . if you know how to increase it , you should know how to decrease it . Most certainly regarding the sword . But this is cutting not 'sawing' , although a good cut with , say, a katana , should have three motions going ; from 'swinging the arm ' a chopping type of action : from swinging the arms in an arc making the hands come down the center line , move close to the body and at the end extending out from the body ; a 'slicing motion' ; and from the body / center 'surging' forward ; a 'pushing ' type of motion that assists the other two. This is usually tested by cutting through bundles of reeds or straw with a bamboo core . In some exercises the sword may be held above the head and with in breath 'ki' is drawn in through the sword tip, to the hara and with the cut , ki is extended out through the sword tip . Some say without this, you are not cutting correctly . Its similar for many cutting weapons ..... I dont have any 'sawing 'weapons so I cant really say . Ask Curly regarding your skill ; many people do things in a subtle inefficient way ; a friend burnt his electric sander out by ' vigorously assisting manually ' , as said above ; let the tool do the work . Long smooth cuts with a saw using the whole blade and in a relaxed manner are more efficient than a flurry of short strokes 'hacking' through the wood . 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 2 4 hours ago, Apech said: I prefer a pruning saw for small trees and branches. Nothing to do with qi but the curved blade is an advantage. I think the main mistake to make is to tense the arm too much - if you can relax the arm and let the blade do its work it is better. Perhaps tensing the arm inhibits qi - possibly. What about high branches ... beyond any pole extension ? Aussie bush style ; half a stick of 'jelly' with a long fuse , tie it to an arrow and shoot it up into the limb with it . Light fuse and run . - it doesnt make a very clean 'cut' though . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted January 2 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Nungali said: What about high branches ... beyond any pole extension ? Aussie bush style ; half a stick of 'jelly' with a long fuse , tie it to an arrow and shoot it up into the limb with it . Light fuse and run . - it doesnt make a very clean 'cut' though . Good ideas. Pole extension is definitely something to try in the future. Invasive trees are octopus / umbrella tree (Heptapleurum actinophyllum). They can be cut down to the ground and grow back over time. They're spreading everywhere like an ecological disaster in the making. Edited January 2 by Sanity Check Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 2 10 hours ago, Sanity Check said: I was wondering if some degree of qigong training would make it easier for a saw blade to cut wood. Yes, what you said is all true. I don't need to quote the rest. Qigong gives you the internal strength to make your daily chores a lot easier. With the inner strength, one can chop woods in one blow. Cut up a chicken in 5 minutes. Nowadays, the meat market do not cut spareribs into small pieces anymore. So, I have experience in chopping them into small piece with a chopping knife in one blow. Thanks to the chi that I acquired from Tai Chi practice. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted January 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nungali said: Regarding 'flow' variation ....just make the flow less . if you know how to increase it , you should know how to decrease it . Most certainly regarding the sword . But this is cutting not 'sawing' , although a good cut with , say, a katana , should have three motions going ; from 'swinging the arm ' a chopping type of action : from swinging the arms in an arc making the hands come down the center line , move close to the body and at the end extending out from the body ; a 'slicing motion' ; and from the body / center 'surging' forward ; a 'pushing ' type of motion that assists the other two. This is usually tested by cutting through bundles of reeds or straw with a bamboo core . In some exercises the sword may be held above the head and with in breath 'ki' is drawn in through the sword tip, to the hara and with the cut , ki is extended out through the sword tip . Some say without this, you are not cutting correctly . Its similar for many cutting weapons ..... I dont have any 'sawing 'weapons so I cant really say . Ask Curly regarding your skill ; many people do things in a subtle inefficient way ; a friend burnt his electric sander out by ' vigorously assisting manually ' , as said above ; let the tool do the work . Long smooth cuts with a saw using the whole blade and in a relaxed manner are more efficient than a flurry of short strokes 'hacking' through the wood . Fascinating commentary on katana slicing. There is an old story about John Chang infusing a chopstick with qi which was then used to penetrate a wood tabletop. I would guess it is similar to qi techniques using swords. I think I can get an idea of how much qi is flowing through the body by pressing my palms together. The amount of energy increases naturally during exercise. At other times it decreases with the difference being noticeable. On a good day I might be able to feel a type of field around the palm of the hands and fingertips. But how or why I got to this point, I'm not certain. I never really trained or studied qigong with the intent of developing it. I think its from doing a lot of stretching. With the intent of developing muscles that "grow longer" as a result of greater flexibility. I used to stretch whenever I watched TV. Whatever hours I spent watching movies, sports or whatever random thing. I would often be stretching. Maybe 1 to 2+ hours most days. The coil windings of electric motors sometimes have a thin insulating varnish which burns away under heat. This happened with my electric scooter. I'm going to try upgrading the watt rating of motors to see if it increases durability. But tbh have not gotten around to it yet. Edited January 2 by Sanity Check Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 2 5 hours ago, Apech said: I prefer a pruning saw for small trees and branches. I had just used this tool recently to cut up a tree in no time. It should help to cut faster and more accurate with less energy if one knows how to apply chi properly. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nungali said: What about high branches ... beyond any pole extension ? Aussie bush style ; half a stick of 'jelly' with a long fuse , tie it to an arrow and shoot it up into the limb with it . Light fuse and run . - it doesnt make a very clean 'cut' though . I used a little ingenuity. I took the blade off the small handle and mounted on a longer staff. With proper strength applied, it works the same way as the design of the tool was intended. The cut was smooth too. PS It seems to me that has something to do with Neigong(內功), body and mind control. Edited January 2 by ChiDragon 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted January 3 17 hours ago, Nungali said: What about high branches ... beyond any pole extension ? Aussie bush style ; half a stick of 'jelly' with a long fuse , tie it to an arrow and shoot it up into the limb with it . Light fuse and run . - it doesnt make a very clean 'cut' though . Yes I was going to buy a pole extension but in the end I just used a small foldable aluminium ladder (or step ladder) - but most of the trees I prune are fruit trees or olive and are not high. In fact the easiest thing with olive trees is to climb into the bowl of tree and work from there. I did cut down an apple tree which had quite a large trunk but used a chain saw. However basically me and chain saws don't get along - I had a petrol driven one which kept packing up on me so I bought a battery powered electric one (quite light and handy) but even then in the end I just reverted to the pruning saw which will cut through anything with a bit of effort. I haven't tried explosives ... which is why I still have all my fingers and hands ... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted January 3 By the way regular cleaning of the saw's teeth is essential- 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted January 3 46 minutes ago, Apech said: By the way regular cleaning of the saw's teeth is essential- Regular cleaning of everybody's teeth is essential. As for qi-infused instruments, those do exist but are usually in the possession of masters who engage said tools in their cultivation. There's many legends about swords, calligraphy brushes, acupuncture needles and of course talismans charged with qi by highly skillled practitioners. An ordinary practitioner won't accomplish any such feats. What is available to a regular practitioner though is his or her own qi to the extent it has been cultivated. Or 22 hours ago, thelerner said: Maybe not qi, but flow, a close relative, might make a difference. Starting the cutting motion from your center, transmitting the force through your arm, whole body flowing back and forth as you cut. The principles, habits and skills learned in (e.g.) a good taiji practice can often be successfully applied to any other. I found that they efficiently improve swimming, tennis, household chores, food preparation and what not. (I neither own nor need a garlic press, e.g., because I fajin a clove with the flat side of a cleaver in such a way that it simultaneously peels and pulverizes itself. A whole bulb is turned into mashed garlic within seconds this way.) 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 3 (edited) On 1/2/2024 at 3:15 AM, Sanity Check said: Would the saw somehow benefit from this in terms of it being able to cut better. Yes, it was interesting. After I mount the blade on a pole stick, I was standing at a bow stand holding the pole with my hands. Instead of moving my hands, I locked my hands in one position and just move my body back and forth. I saw lots of the sawdust falling off the tree on each stroke. That is what I had learned from Taiji by appalling fajin(發勁). I have just learned the real definition of fajin. There is a big difference between fali(發力) and fajin (發勁). Fali(發力) is using only one part of the body, like a hand, to exert a force. Fajin (發勁) is using the whole body to execute the inner strength. It was discover it is a very powerful move. I can imaging how to defend myself during combat. Of course, that will never happen. P.S. It makes the cuts much easier and use less energy and it does not cause fatigue. Edited January 3 by ChiDragon 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 4 On 1/4/2024 at 8:35 AM, ChiDragon said: Yes, it was interesting. After I mount the blade on a pole stick, I was standing at a bow stand holding the pole with my hands. Instead of moving my hands, I locked my hands in one position and just move my body back and forth. I saw lots of the sawdust falling off the tree on each stroke. That is what I had learned from Taiji by appalling fajin(發勁). I have just learned the real definition of fajin. There is a big difference between fali(發力) and fajin (發勁). Fali(發力) is using only one part of the body, like a hand, to exert a force. Fajin (發勁) is using the whole body to execute the inner strength. It was discover it is a very powerful move. I can imaging how to defend myself during combat. Of course, that will never happen. P.S. It makes the cuts much easier and use less energy and it does not cause fatigue. Same with sword . I used to teach ; dont swing the sword around chopping up stuff , most of the movement should be where you 'place' your body, how you move , etc . Watch a good classical Jap sword movie (one where the actor is actually trained well in the art ) then watch a bad one (often a western modern version ) where the sword is swung, flung, and 'swished' around ..... just like ... someone has forgotten everything about proper movement due to 'confidence' of having a weapon and relying on that weapon as a thing itself a not as an extension of body technique . The art of sword and indeed one single cut is about using the whole body . Or even ; its about where you 'move your hara' to . There is one very quick defense I demonstrate against a classic defend and counter move , nothing moves; sword, hands, arm , I just step and turn and everything is in the right position at the end of the move . No 'hacking' needed , body position within the fight / melee , minimal movement , taking 'direct action' and right placement . In a way , one needs to read others ki .... their 'intentions' before their physical movement follows , and in a 'melee' against several opponents , that 'psychic force seems like an engulfing octopus , the master swordsman can read the shape of that octopus and move accordingly about and within it . yeah, its just a movie but the actor is an accomplished sword 'stylist' ; 'Sword of Doom' - the ambush against Lord Shimarda ( a master swordsman ) goes wrong . ( I cant post the clip atm ) 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 4 Here is another example ; in teaching I would : " Push me backwards . " - they cant . " Meet my cut and win " ie Cut with their sword against my sword and push it push it out of the way - they cant . So I take them to the car ; 'Push my car ' - they pause, consider, take a good foot placement , lower their center ( their body generally ) , take a breath in and push with all the parts of their body , not just their hands and arms . It is as if 'instinctively' they know what to do but 'forget' in training . OR ; 'Chop some firewood for me ." "Okay then ' , they take up the ax , place their hands the right distance apart , get a good grip , firmly place their feet , lower their center , take a breath in and ... whop ! .... often with some grunt or vocal noise . Me ; " So, why dont you do that when doing a sword cut ? " relying too much on the weapon alone can be dangerous to the person with the weapon . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4 59 minutes ago, Nungali said: Same with sword . I used to teach ; dont swing the sword around chopping up stuf What style did you teach? I have people asked me to teach the Yang style sword. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Nungali said: Same with sword . I used to teach ; dont swing the sword around chopping up stuff , most of the movement should be where you 'place' your body, how you move , etc . Watch a good classical Jap sword movie (one where the actor is actually trained well in the art ) then watch a bad one (often a western modern version ) where the sword is swung, flung, and 'swished' around ..... just like ... someone has forgotten everything about proper movement due to 'confidence' of having a weapon and relying on that weapon as a thing itself a not as an extension of body technique . The art of sword and indeed one single cut is about using the whole body . Or even ; its about where you 'move your hara' to . There is one very quick defense I demonstrate against a classic defend and counter move , nothing moves; sword, hands, arm , I just step and turn and everything is in the right position at the end of the move . No 'hacking' needed , body position within the fight / melee , minimal movement , taking 'direct action' and right placement . In a way , one needs to read others ki .... their 'intentions' before their physical movement follows , and in a 'melee' against several opponents , that 'psychic force seems like an engulfing octopus , the master swordsman can read the shape of that octopus and move accordingly about and within it . Quoting Takuan Soho: The Unfettered Mind--Writings from a Zen Master to a Master Swordsman: If ten men, each with a sword, come at you with swords slashing, if you parry each sword without stopping the mind at each action, and go from one to the next, you will not be lacking in a proper action for every one of the ten. Although the mind act ten times against ten men, if it does not halt at even one of them and you react to one after another, will proper action be lacking? But if the mind stops before one of these men, though you parry his striking sword, when the next man comes, the right action will have slipped away. Considering that the Thousand-Armed Kannon2 has one thousand arms on its one body, if the mind stops at the one holding a bow, the other nine hundred and ninety-nine will be useless. It is because the mind is not detained at one place that all the arms are useful. As for Kannon, to what purpose would it have a thousand arms attached to one body? This form is made with the intent of pointing out to men that if their immovable wisdom is let go, even if a body have a thousand arms, every one will be of use. When facing a single tree, if you look at a single one of I its red leaves, you will not see all the others. When the eye is not set on any one leaf, and you face the tree with nothing at all in mind, any number of leaves are visible to the eye without limit. But if a single leaf holds the eye, it will be as if the remaining leaves were not there. One who has understood this is no different from the Kannon with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 6 I would add that 'look at the opponent as one looks at a tree ' is something I was taught - and the explanation was as above . This extends to what I call ( in facing multiple opponents / 'being surrounded ' ) - 'spherical awareness ' . Its something that has kept me alive for over 50 years as a motorcycle rider (more later , gotta scoot ... taking two little girls to watch an 'octopus show ' ... speaking of 'multi armed one ' ) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
