Reflecting on TDB

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

And where does that come from?

 

Also if there's irritation is it just about facts or is it about the facts that "I" said matter?

 

 

Obviously the irritation comes from all those very wrong people on here who argue with me!!!!!!!!

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Luke ... I now realize you were right all along; please ignore my previous ten pages of (sadly misguided and ignorant) posts.

 

sniff   sniff  so sorry

 

 

 

Yes ... Luke,   I too as well realise  you where  ......

 

you where  .....  

 

arrrgghhh ...

 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Luke ... I now realize you were right all along; please ignore my previous ten pages of (sadly misguided and ignorant) posts.

 

sniff   sniff  so sorry

 

 

 

yeah ... right .  Its a LOT easier to do when you have cocaine  !

 

 

My other complaint is ... what happened to all the jokes !   Have we told them all now its been going on so long ?

 

What's wrong with making up new jokes ? 

 

Spoiler

I said to my girlfriend ; " OH no !  I have had no cocaine ALL week and now its the weekend and I STILL have no cocaine for partying ! "

 

" Dont worry," she said , "here you go. "

 

and gives me a little silver box with cocaine in it . So I rolled up a note and snorted it all up, carefully going around and into each corner , up the side crease and inside the lid (just to make sure ) . I gave her the box back and she looks in and ;

 

" What the hell , what happened to it ?"

 

" You said I could have it ."

 

" Not all of it , you idiot !  That was my months supply !  "

 

Women !     ....   You finally do  a  good job of the vacuuming and   still   ....

 

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

And where does that come from?

 

Also if there's irritation is it just about facts or is it about the facts that "I" said matter?

Don't know where that comes from. Facts in themselves are neither pleasant nor unpleasant. However training myself to "don't give a fuck" about it (supposing such a thing is even possible) doesn't look like an attractive way out to me. Also I don't see anything wrong with caring about facts and correct argumentation. I cannot prove those things to be valuable in any absolute sense. But I don't consider the fact that it is me caring about it as in any way disqualifying. Who else inside my mind could be caring about it if some caring is to be done. In daily life we are not concerned with absolute truths but with relative truths. And when people no longer care about getting the relative truths right than that can (and eventually will) have dire consequences. See for instance the developments in the US where Trump with his big con game is threatening the democratic system itself. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by wandelaar

[Nungali]

I got a few sentences into your post ... and immediately saw the problem as it can / has been  played out  and I thought about what you mentioned in your last sentence , before I got to it .

 

There is this 'thing' happening to 'certain consciousnesses ' in this world, at the moment .  The 'good old fashioned obvious'  logical rational mind that understands how debate NEEDS TO work ... and knowing the reason WHY it needs to work  (ie. including any benefits that should come from it ), although perhaps always in the minority ( ? ) seems to be loosing ground .

 

Other things are reported  to be gaining ground  though ;  fascist youth culture ,  irrational and disconnected consciousness  ( but dont worry about that as we will soon hand consciousness over to AI, thus relieving us of the responsibility  ) , depersonalised  communications ( no need to read facial expressions  as we now have emoticons   ) no need to feel / be in the other's energy field because we will have  .....   Ummmmm   , no, thats okay , we will still be in each others energy fields

 

 

 

[Maddie]

17 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Don't know where that comes from. 

 

According to the Buddha it comes from the ego or the false sense of self. 

 

You probably don't care if someone disagrees with Joe Schmo in Kalamazoo,

 

You probably do care if someone disagrees with you.

 

What's the difference? You are not Joe Schmo, there is no sense of self there, therefore you don't get upset. 

[stirling]

All of this is reminding me of one of the most concise but complete wisdom documents I know of. It could quote the whole thing, but I think the idea is well-represented in just this excerpt:

 

Quote

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.

Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.

To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of things is not understood
the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.

The Way is perfect like vast space
where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
that we do not see the true nature of things.

Live neither in the entanglements of outer things,
nor in inner feelings of emptiness.
Be serene in the oneness of things
and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves.

When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity
your very effort fills you with activity.
As long as you remain in one extreme or the other,
you will never know Oneness.

Those who do not live in the single Way
fail in both activity and passivity,
assertion and denial.
To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality;
to assert the emptiness of things
is to miss their reality.

The more you talk and think about it,
the further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking
and there is nothing you will not be able to know.

To return to the root is to find the meaning,
but to pursue appearances is to miss the source.
At the moment of inner enlightenment,
there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness.

The changes that appear to occur in the empty world
we call real only because of our ignorance.
Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.

Do not remain in the dualistic state;
avoid such pursuits carefully.
If there is even a trace
of this and that, of right and wrong,
the Mind-essence will be lost in confusion.

Although all dualities come from the One,
do not be attached even to this One.
When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
nothing in the world can offend, 
and when a thing can no longer offend,
it ceases to exist in the old way.

When no discriminating thoughts arise,
the old mind ceases to exist.
When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes,
and when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.

Things are objects because there is a subject or mind;
and the mind is a subject because there are objects.
Understand the relativity of these two
and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness.

 

-Verses on the Faith Mind
by Chien-chih Seng-ts'an 
Third Zen Patriarch [d. 606 AD]

 

In short, it is the attachment and aversion of the illusory self that decides that "something is wrong with the world". As Maddie suggests, where the self is seen for what it is, the nature of our struggle with the reality of what is happening is changed. 

 

 

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

Such a form of Buddhism would be a terrible thing from the social point of view. It would the spiritual version of not giving a fuck about anything.

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Such a form of Buddhism would be a terrible thing from the social point of view. It would the spiritual version of not giving a fuck about anything.

 

According to the Buddha giving too much of an ef is the source of our suffering. 

 

* society is part of samsara, the Buddha was about liberation from samsara. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Maddie

[Mark Foote]

28 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Such a form of Buddhism would be a terrible thing from the social point of view. It would the spiritual version of not giving a fuck about anything.
 

 

 

To enjoy our life-- complicated life, difficult life-- without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen.

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

Suzuki puts the emphasis on practice.  There's the famous line attributed to the founder of Soto Zen, Dogen, about "practice is enlightenment; enlightenment is practice".  For me, all that Dogen is saying is, that it's not possible to give up attraction, aversion, and ignorance by the exercise of will, the exercise of intent, or by deliberation.  Neither is the kind of practice most people think of in connection with Zen going to actually do the trick:

 

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.
 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

But there is a practice.  I think Soto teachers in general equate real zazen with shikantaza.  And shikantaza is, in a sense, doing nothing, but more accurately it is the cessation of action of speech, body, and mind by which one contacts freedom:

 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.
 

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85)

 

If I give a f*ck about freedom, then I am bound to come home.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Mark Foote

[wandelaar]

5 minutes ago, Maddie said:

According to the Buddha giving too much of an ef is the source of our suffering. 

 

That's correct. Too much is self-defeating. But what the quote by stirling proposes is much more radical and consists of rooting out any and all (social) preferences, which corresponds to no longer giving a fuck about anything. Which is not the way any society can function. The "enlightened" people following such a path would basically drop out and let others run the show, the town, the country, or whatever. If the Buddha himself had been of that persuasion than he wouldn't have founded Buddhism at all. Why should he have bothered if it no longer mattered to him anyhow?

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

That's correct. Too much is self-defeating. But what the quote by stirling proposes is much more radical and consists of rooting out any and all (social) preferences, which corresponds to no longer giving a fuck about anything. Which is not the way any society can function. The "enlightened" people following such a path would basically drop out and let others run the show, the town, the country, or whatever. If the Buddha himself had been of that persuasion than he wouldn't have founded Buddhism at all. Why should he have bothered if it no longer mattered to him anyhow?

 

It's important to remember that the Buddha taught about letting go, but also taught a great deal about compassion. 

[wandelaar]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

According to the Buddha it comes from the ego or the false sense of self. 

 

You probably don't care if someone disagrees with Joe Schmo in Kalamazoo,

 

You probably do care if someone disagrees with you.

 

What's the difference? You are not Joe Schmo, there is no sense of self there, therefore you don't get upset. 

 

The Buddha is wrong. I don't care when people disagree with me or with Joe Schmo in Kalamazoo as long as this is done with sensible arguments and on the basis of facts. The crucial thing here is not me but the form of argumentation that's used. It also irritates me when other people are attacked on the basis of false arguments. A good example is politics in the US, I don't live there but it greatly irritates me how Trump is fooling millions of people by continual lying, name-calling, etc. Trump doesn't know me and he haven't attacked me. Then how could I have gotten upset about that if it was all because of my ego?

Edited December 21, 2023 by wandelaar

[liminal_luke]

As always, paradox is the way.  It's possible to give up attractions and aversions and work very hard to make things better at the same time.  Indeed, the attractions and aversions of those who work for societal change are great saboteurs of their efforts.  

 

I used to work as a massage therapist.  In general, massage therapists want their clients to change.  We want them, first and foremost, to relax.  Those who work in more specialized modalities are looking for particular changes in the soft tissue.  But all this wanting just gets in the way; it's a big mistake.  Why?  Because genuine healing touch doesn't come with an agenda.  To the casual observer of a massage therapy session, there might not be a perceptual difference between a massage that works and one that doesn't.  The difference is not in the techique of the massage therapist but rather in the MIND of the massage therapist.  The trick is to touch someone in a way that encourages relaxation (or, better yet, self-awareness) without wanting this or that outcome.  The trick is to be "in neutral."

 

I speak of massage because that's what I'm familiar with but it's the same principle if someone is a doctor or a counselor or a social justice warrior.

Edited December 21, 2023 by liminal_luke

[wandelaar]

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I speak of massage because that's what I'm familiar with but it's the same principle if someone is a doctor or a counselor or a social justice warrior.

 

That's true. Forcing people to change will often backfire. It's a subtle business.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Such a form of Buddhism would be a terrible thing from the social point of view. It would the spiritual version of not giving a fuck about anything.

 

It has always been the form of Buddhism. In this case it is put in such a manner that you are shocked by it enough to investigate its propositions personally.

 

From the tripitaka (earliest Buddhist teachings):

 

Quote

 

And what is ignorance? 

 

Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.

 

And so, ignorance is a condition for choices.

 

Choices are a condition for consciousness. … That is how this entire mass of suffering originates. When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.” - MN12.5

 

 

The question becomes: In what conditions do the delusions of choice, suffering, and consciousness cease? 

 

It would be a misunderstanding to think that there is no compassion for the suffering of others,  and no actions are taken to help with that... there is in fact MORE compassion, WITH more clarity as to the causes and conditions. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by stirling

[wandelaar]

16 minutes ago, Maddie said:

It's important to remember that the Buddha taught about letting go, but also taught a great deal about compassion. 

 

Yes - I think it is dangerous to leave that part out.

[Maddie]

25 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

The Buddha is wrong. I don't care when people disagree with me or with Joe Schmo in Kalamazoo as long as this is done with sensible arguments and on the basis of facts. The crucial thing here is not me but the form of argumentation that's used. It also irritates me when other people are attacks on the basis of false arguments. A good example is politics in the US, I don't live there but it greatly irritates me how Trump is fooling millions of people by continual lying, name-calling, etc. Trump doesn't know me and he haven't attacked me. Then how could I have gotten upset about that if it was all because of my ego?

 

I also think Trump is an ass-hat and get upset, but then again I've not transcended ego either lol. 

 

You get upset with Trump because YOU think he's doing something wrong, and YOU think it should not be that way. This is where ego comes in.

 

Were it not for ego you would see what Trump was doing and realize it wasn't skillful, but you would not be upset, and so would I.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Maddie

[Nungali]

41 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

The Buddha is wrong. I don't care when people disagree with me or with Joe Schmo in Kalamazoo as long as this is done with sensible arguments and on the basis of facts. The crucial thing here is not me but the form of argumentation that's used. It also irritates me when other people are attacks on the basis of false arguments. A good example is politics in the US, I don't live there but it greatly irritates me how Trump is fooling millions of people by continual lying, name-calling, etc. Trump doesn't know me and he haven't attacked me. Then how could I have gotten upset about that if it was all because of my ego?

 

 

Thats it isnt it .

 

We can get 'reactive' about things hurting and adversely effecting others  ... 'others' meaning those that are not ourselves .  I thought that was part of compassion and empathy ? 

 

Like I said , we are even loosing the reasons why rational and intelligent debate might matter .

 

Somewhere along the road we mistook 'the right to have an opinion'  with  ' the right to have my opinion seen as right ' .

 

Everyone is a winner , yay !

 

I got an award for the guy that wanted to try the hardest  ( but didnt ) 

[wandelaar]

55 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I also think Trump is an ass-hat and get upset, but then again I've not transcended ego either lol. 

 

You get upset with Trump because YOU think he's doing something wrong, and YOU think it should not be that way. This is where ego comes in.

 

Were it not for ego you would see what Trump was doing and realize it wasn't skillful, but you would not be upset, and so would I.

 

This is muddled reasoning. Without an ego we wouldn't be anybody, or rather an empty body, or in any case not an ordinary human being. We wouldn't have preferences, character traits, etc. It's hard to see how such a "person" could develop an interest in politics let alone take a stand on issues. So in a trivial sense it is true that a hypothetical person without an ego would not be upset by Trump or at least not as long as Trump wouldn't directly attack the person. Maybe in the later case some basic instincts might kick in...

 

Now does that prove that my ego is the cause of me getting upset by Trump. No - because there are plenty of people with an ego who like Trump and don't get upset about him at all. Thus the ego should rather be considered as a necessary psychological condition for having any evaluative reaction to Trump at all, not as the sole cause of me getting upset about him. The reasons why I get upset about Trump and the reasons why others don't and rather like him are the crucial thing here. Blaming my ego is besides the point.

 

Anyway the concept of an ego-less person is most likely an illusion.

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Without an ego we wouldn't be anybody, or rather an empty body, or in any case not an ordinary human being.

 

You're not wrong there. 

 

In regards to ego causing some people to like Trump while you dislike him. Ego (therefore delusion) is what leads to desire and aversion. Some like him because of ego, and others dislike him because of ego.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Maddie

[liminal_luke]

Imagine a person who thinks Trump would be a disaster of a president and works tirelessly to elect his political opponent. But then Trump wins anyway and this person is totally at peace with the outcome.  Social engagement AND equanimity at the same time -- I think this is the way.

[Mark Foote]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:51 PM, wandelaar said:

 

That's correct. Too much is self-defeating. But what the quote by stirling proposes is much more radical and consists of rooting out any and all (social) preferences, which corresponds to no longer giving a fuck about anything. Which is not the way any society can function. The "enlightened" people following such a path would basically drop out and let others run the show, the town, the country, or whatever. If the Buddha himself had been of that persuasion than he wouldn't have founded Buddhism at all. Why should he have bothered if it no longer mattered to him anyhow?
 

I don't know if there's a passage in the first four Nikayas of the Pali Canon, the four that are thought to be most historically accurate, that expounds the kind of nondiscrimination in the passage stirling quoted. I think that approach came later.

That said, my understanding is that the emphasis on nondiscrimination is really intended to open consciousness to the experience of the "place where you are" (as Dogen put it) as the source of action.

Whether or not that kind of emphasis works, I doubt it, but as Katagiri said, when you're a Zen master and Saturday lecture time rolls around, "you have to say something".  Yes, I'm casting aspersions on the 3rd patriarch!

Like the Zen master who, no matter what was asked of him or who was asking it, just said:  "have some tea."

 

[wandelaar]

I wrote two further posts for this topic now and both times I deleted it by a silly mistake, so I take this as an admonition to my ego to quit with this topic. Enough has already been said.

[Nungali]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:11 AM, Maddie said:

 

You're not wrong there. 

 

In regards to ego causing some people to like Trump while you dislike him. Ego (therefore delusion) is what leads to desire and aversion. Some like him because of ego, and others dislike him because of ego.

 

I dislike him because he is dangerous and knows that a certain percentage of the population is  very 'unevolved' (or maybe he thinks they are more evolved - like him )  and he knows how to manipulate them to support his own biases  and possibly create a new fascistic , gun toting hate empire .

 

if that is coming from my ego  ....... good ego !  I am proud of you .... good boy  ...