Rudi Authentic Neigong

[Taoist Texts]

32 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

So only 10% feel it?From all the examples of debunking of phenomena I’ve seen here based on the widespread, foolproof method of hypnosis, hypnosis only works on 10%?.

 

Quote

 

https://hypnosisandsuggestion.org/measurement-of-hypnosis.html

A person's susceptibility to hypnosis is usually gauged as 'high', 'medium', or 'low'. Approximately 80% of the population are medium, 10% are high and 10% are low.

 

trust the science (c)

15 hours ago, Partez said:

As for the hypnosis stuff, I am able to achieve pretty much all phenomena related to Qi demonstrations typically presented, via hypnosis.

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[Partez]

17 hours ago, wandelaar said:

There's a tendency to think that being able to achieve something by means of hypnosis somehow disproves the reality of the phenomena in question. I used to think that way myself. But this isn't the only way to see it. Hypnosis can have real physiological consequences, so it isn't simply make-believe. Maybe the very same real processes lie at the basis of what is called hypnosis by some and internal Qi phenomena by others.

I agree, but as it stands I'm yet to see any example of chi powers that looks different from a hypnotic effect.

There's really a simple way to distinguish the two tho, and that would be to force push something inanimate, but this is yet to be demonstrated convincingly.

I'll be more than happy for people to think my "powers" come from my Qi practice, which I do daily, and maybe can start charging thousands of dollars for?

After all, how do you know it isn't actual "Qi" phenomena.

[Partez]

2 hours ago, Sahaja said:

So only 10% feel it? From all the examples of debunking of phenomena I’ve seen here based on the widespread, foolproof method of hypnosis, hypnosis only works on 10%?. my cynicism feels dashed and I am aghast!. I hope I don’t have to start believing in esoteric phenomena now.

Not at all.  Almost 100% of people can experience hypnosis phenomena, it's just that 10 - 20% are exceptionally good at going into the hypnotic state.

You might have experienced stepping onto an escalator that has broken down, and for a moment you feel that it's moving?  That in essence is what hypnosis feels like, and what happened is that your mind was imagining the escalator moving in anticipation to take the next step, and doing it over and over again made you conditioned to it.

If you are adamant that you won't be hypnotised, you probably won't be.  At least not by anyone who TELLS you openly that they are about to hypnotise you.

PS: If anybody is in Sydney, Australia, I'm happy to meet up and explore just how powerful our minds are when it comes to screwing with our reality.  You just need to have an open mind, above average IQ, a good focus and good imagination.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Partez

[wandelaar]

2 hours ago, Partez said:

I agree, but as it stands I'm yet to see any example of chi powers that looks different from a hypnotic effect.

There's really a simple way to distinguish the two tho, and that would be to force push something inanimate, but this is yet to be demonstrated convincingly.

I'll be more than happy for people to think my "powers" come from my Qi practice, which I do daily, and maybe can start charging thousands of dollars for?

After all, how do you know it isn't actual "Qi" phenomena.

 

Yes - hypnotists don't (usually) claim magical powers of telekinesis and the like. The problem with "demonstrations" of the latter is that there are ways to fraudulently achieve the same, and it would take serious precautions to be able to rule those out as an explanation, with experienced stage magicians present to watch for any tricks that might be used. Having "medical doctors and scientists present" alone isn't enough.

Edited December 2, 2023 by wandelaar

[Nintendao]

15 hours ago, Maddie said:

By evidence I mean objective evidence that can be measured by anyone with the same instruments and the results will be the same regardless of who is doing the measuring. This is the definition of objective evidence. 

 

We can objectively measure the temperature with a thermometer. As long as the individual using the thermometer uses it correctly the reading will be the same as everyone else taking the temperature of the same object at the same time for example. 

 

The thing is, nobody needs a thermometer to know that fire is hot. In the time before human ability to control fire, meeting it naturally would be rare if at all, depending on where one lived. People who saw or felt fire and tried to explain it to other people, might well have been thought to be making stuff up, or to have been involved in something super mystical. Then on the other hand some people that lived next to a volcano might have gotten accustomed to working with it directly. What I'm saying is, here's a guy who went and trained with volcano people, and is offering to show others exactly how to do something that they might not yet be convinced even exists.

 

Sure some people might have heard about fire before, or maybe water, and studied it in great depth theoretically, and hallucinated through various levels of what it actually feels like to have a candle up their nose, or a bucket of ice dumped on their head, but if you then take that person and expose it to the real thing, things might change for them very quickly. 

 

22 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

It’s something that you should really experience in person to be convinced. 

 

[wandelaar]

@Nintendao

 

Have you ever experienced a good illusionist or stage magician? And did you know how he or she did it?  Seeing something "with one's own eyes" simply isn't enough. But I have had this kind of discussions a million times, and all I achieved is being ignored or people getting mad at me...

 

But maybe you have the relevant expertise to recognize fraud, tricks and self deception, and than you're the exception.

Edited December 2, 2023 by wandelaar

[Partez]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Yes - hypnotists don't (usually) claim magical powers of telekinesis and the like. The problem with "demonstrations" of the latter is that there are ways to fraudulently achieve the same, and it would take serious precautions to be able to rule those out as an explanation, with experienced stage magicians present to watch for any tricks that might be used. Having "medical doctors and scientists present" alone isn't enough.

John Chang was the only person that seemed to have gotten examined in this way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJm9A2iXiFA
But then you watch other clips of him and it strongly points to a trick, so in the end we are left in the same place, speculating.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

The thing is, nobody needs a thermometer to know that fire is hot. In the time before human ability to control fire, meeting it naturally would be rare if at all, depending on where one lived. People who saw or felt fire and tried to explain it to other people, might well have been thought to be making stuff up, or to have been involved in something super mystical. Then on the other hand some people that lived next to a volcano might have gotten accustomed to working with it directly. What I'm saying is, here's a guy who went and trained with volcano people, and is offering to show others exactly how to do something that they might not yet be convinced even exists.

 

Sure some people might have heard about fire before, or maybe water, and studied it in great depth theoretically, and hallucinated through various levels of what it actually feels like to have a candle up their nose, or a bucket of ice dumped on their head, but if you then take that person and expose it to the real thing, things might change for them very quickly. 

 

23 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

It’s something that you should really experience in person to be convinced. 

I recommend people do experience it first hand, and also check him for any devices that are able to generate static electricity like this one here can do:

What he dose at the start of the video here looks identical to what a static electricity device will accomplish:

I don't own one, so I don't know the ins and outs of how it works, but if this is fake, it would most likely be something like that.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

11 minutes ago, Partez said:

I recommend people do experience it first hand, and also check him for any devices that are able to generate static electricity like this one here can do:

Exactly, go and see for yourself. Don’t just take anyone’s word for it if it is or isn’t real, you are your own person. Check for machines, have someone watch or film you getting it done so they can spot any funny business going on. It’s pointless speculating online.

 

I went to see an Indonesian healer in London who did cupping and also emitted electric qi for treatment. His method was more similar to Pak John’s treatment than Rudi and Master Zhou’s style. He was barefoot, didn’t have a wet towel under his feet. Was able to emit electric qi into me and my wife in different areas in the room so it’s not something where he had to be in a specific spot for it to work. 

 

Being skeptical is great, but use that skepticism wisely and do your own investigation, don’t just listen to people who post google translated texts or Wikipedia articles and take their word for it. 
 

It’s much better to investigate something yourself and maybe find out it’s a fraud then it is to miss out on a great opportunity for something new just because strangers on the internet told you it’s fake.

[Partez]

9 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Exactly, go and see for yourself. Don’t just take anyone’s word for it if it is or isn’t real, you are your own person. Check for machines, have someone watch or film you getting it done so they can spot any funny business going on. It’s pointless speculating online.

 

I went to see an Indonesian healer in London who did cupping and also emitted electric qi for treatment. His method was more similar to Pak John’s treatment than Rudi and Master Zhou’s style. He was barefoot, didn’t have a wet towel under his feet. Was able to emit electric qi into me and my wife in different areas in the room so it’s not something where he had to be in a specific spot for it to work. 

 

Being skeptical is great, but use that skepticism wisely and do your own investigation, don’t just listen to people who post google translated texts or Wikipedia articles and take their word for it. 
 

It’s much better to investigate something yourself and maybe find out it’s a fraud then it is to miss out on a great opportunity for something new just because strangers on the internet told you it’s fake.

Agreed 100%.  I'm skeptical, but open minded.

Without skepticism you end up wasting money and time that you could have seeking out something genuine, or enrolling in a karate class.

With a closed mind, you might miss something truly magical, to whatever extent it's possible in this world.

I lucid dream and astral project, and while I'm skeptical about the experience being me actually leaving my body or just my imagination, if I was too closed minded about it, then I never would have trained myself to do it, and would be missing out on an experience that is real, even if the reasons behind it might not be what some people claim it to be.

And if you're still feeling desperate to throw your disposable income at somebody, I can give you my paypal account, and say a prayer for you in my Qi Gong practice or something.  It might work.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Partez

[Nintendao]

53 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@Nintendao

 

Have you ever experienced a good illusionist or stage magician? And did you know how he or she did it?  Seeing something "with one's own eyes" simply isn't enough. But I have had this kind of discussions a million times, and all I achieved is being ignored or people getting mad at me...

 

But maybe you have the relevant expertise to recognize fraud, tricks and self deception, and than you're the exception.

 

Of course! Knowing how the trick is done might spoil the fun, but I do get a kick out of Penn and Teller. On stage performance is deliberately deceptive, and takes skill to conceal. Absolutely I have also been completely screwed over by sneaky bastards at certain times in life, that had I been less naïve, might have been able to avoid. At this point I might not call it expertise, so much as having been just dumb enough to have gained explicit knowledge of the difference between watching a fireworks display, and having explosives go off in my hand. Take that both literally and figuratively 😅

 

I don't deny that objectivity and repeatability are extremely important. I have also noticed that over-reliance on analysis vs experience can become dogmatic. Most people can agree on the direct similarity between a synapse firing and a lightning strike, albeit at extremes of scale. Why is it so hard to accept that the natural energy processes we are built from can be trained up? There's a reason this work takes years upon years of gradually beefing up the handling capacity.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

@Partez you are in Sydney? If you are ever in Singapore for whatever reason head to Dr. Ho’s clinic. He does faqi (emitting electric qi) as part of his treatment. One of my friends paid him a visit a few years ago.
 

There are a lot of people in Indonesia that do it but I can’t vouch for them since I haven’t personally been or know anyone who has but Bagus the Leaf Man in Bali is probably the most famous if you can track him down.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Pak_Satrio

[wandelaar]

@Pak_Satrio

 

Largely agree with your approach, except for one thing. I don't believe people generally (myself included) are capable of seeing through the more advanced tricks of stage magicians and illusionists. If that were so than magic and illusionist shows would have become obsolete long ago. Neither do people generally sufficiently know what is or isn't possible according to currently accepted scientific theories. So seeing for yourself (in most cases) isn't enough. Unless you also have the required expertise to avoid self deception and to recognize fraud. Concerning externalized Chi I'm neither a believer nor a nonbeliever. But for the time-being I apply Occam's razor until more convincing evidence becomes available.

 

42 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

Why is it so hard to accept that the natural energy processes we are built from can be trained up? There's a reason this work takes years upon years of gradually beefing up the handling capacity.

 

Nobody doubts that the energies of one's body can be beefed up. What is problematic is the supposition that handling one's beefed up body energy enables one to defy the known laws of physics. Of course when this is indeed possible than the known laws of physics are to blame and need to be corrected. But such a conclusion should not be drawn lightly.

Edited December 2, 2023 by wandelaar

[Partez]

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

you are in Sydney? If you are ever in Singapore for whatever reason head to Dr. Ho’s clinic. He does faqi (emitting electric qi) as part of his treatment. One of my friends paid him a visit a few years ago.
 

There are a lot of people in Indonesia that do it but I can’t vouch for them since I haven’t personally been or know anyone who has but Bagus the Leaf Man in Bali is probably the most famous if you can track him down.

Thanks for that.  And I would recommend checking out Dodie Magis if you're in Indonesia.  He does a similar thing to what I know how to do, but is next level with it:

I can vouch that the phenomena he creates is absolutely real, in that it's not done with any kind of stooges, and from what I could tell, he was able to make everyone experience the phenomena.

The issue is if you want to train with him, is I didn't get the sense he was teaching exactly what he does, and kinda just gave you a bit of fluff while showing you how good he is.  That said, he is very good imo.

[Chang dao ling]

20 hours ago, Maddie said:

Hopefully I don't sound too dense here, BUT as an acupuncturist I've never really understood alchemy. 

 

Honestly if the goal is to be healthy and get "qi" moving through the meridians and built up simply going to the gym or doing Pilates is an excellent way to do that.

 

If the goal is to live forever and shoot lightning out your nose, um sorry but that isn't real. 

 

So not really sure what alchemy is all about.

According to Taoism there are 5 types immortals. Ghost ,Human, earth,spirt, celestial. By practicing neidan if a person becomes a spirit immortal he can live forever in the immortal realm. I suggest you to read " white moon on the mountain peak" by Damo . You will understand about neigong 

[liminal_luke]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

what is going on with any kind of laying of hands is that 10% of humans atavistically feel and do what they are signaled by the leader. Its a survival mechanism hard-wired in the reptilian brain: a strong external signal from the leader switches off the individual volition. A flock of animals following the flock leader has a much higher chance of survival than a flock where every individual decides for himself. No neigong is necessary for an individual to experience a shock, as on the vid, note that the pastor has to physically touch the faithful  to trigger the mechanism.  They are been told that they will fall - they fall; if they would have been told they would get a healing electric shock - they would feel a a healing electric shock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slain_in_the_Spirit

 

Follow-the-leader perception may be responsible for some of the effect seen but I'm not convinced that the genuine article doesn't exist.  As far as Rudi goes, I attended a Zoom class with him, followed by a brief private message exchange here on the board, and had a good feeling about him.  I don't think he's out to fleece people.  So I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

Maybe believing or not believing in this kind of stuff is part of a person's basic worldview.  There are people oriented toward skepticism, habitually finding alternative explanations for anything wondrous or quasi miraculous.  Others are bent toward belief and vulnerable to all sorts of hoodwinks.  I won't be emptying my life savings to experience an electrical miracle cure anytime soon but I like to think that all sorts of stuff contrary to science-as-we-know-it are possible.  So sue me: I'm just happier believing in magic.

Edited December 2, 2023 by liminal_luke

[wandelaar]

39 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

So sue me: I'm just happier believing in magic.

 

For controversial things in which both positions ("it exists" and "it doesn't exist") are defensible that is indeed what it comes down to: do you want to keep a relatively clean slate with only well-founded knowledge to build on, or do you like to spice it up with some exotic ingredients to make life more exiting.

 

Funny that the video with Dodie Magis is called: "magnetism" or "mesmerism". That is precisely where in the West hypnotism historically derived from. So again chi demonstrations and hypnotism might be the same thing as far as the real part goes.

Edited December 2, 2023 by wandelaar

[dino]

18 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

 
Forgot to mention earlier but the point of emitting “electric qi” is for medical purposes. If you check out these videos that I posted earlier they show and explain some

of the process. It might interest you as an acupuncturist.

 

 

 

i was there on the Sweden trip,one of the patient of master Zhou.When he was doing faqi to my arm and meridian points i was feeling like holding electric fence ,so crazy to experience than on your own body.and he can control the amplitude ,like whole hand or just the fingers ,he doesnt have to touch you to feel it,he can just go near like plasma qi .i will never forget that experience.here is one of my videos from the trip

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by dino

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@Pak_Satrio

 

Largely agree with your approach, except for one thing. I don't believe people generally (myself included) are capable of seeing through the more advanced tricks of stage magicians and illusionists. If that were so than magic and illusionist shows would have become obsolete long ago. Neither do people generally sufficiently know what is or isn't possible according to currently accepted scientific theories. So seeing for yourself (in most cases) isn't enough. Unless you also have the required expertise to avoid self deception and to recognize fraud. Concerning externalized Chi I'm neither a believer nor a nonbeliever. But for the time-being I apply Occam's razor until more convincing evidence becomes available.

 

Yes but you can check with your own eyes and hands (if they let you) that no machine is being used, and that they are barefoot? Being barefoot is key because these zapping machines only work if you are wearing shoes. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Partez said:

Thanks for that.  And I would recommend checking out Dodie Magis if you're in Indonesia.  He does a similar thing to what I know how to do, but is next level with it:

I can vouch that the phenomena he creates is absolutely real, in that it's not done with any kind of stooges, and from what I could tell, he was able to make everyone experience the phenomena.

The issue is if you want to train with him, is I didn't get the sense he was teaching exactly what he does, and kinda just gave you a bit of fluff while showing you how good he is.  That said, he is very good imo.

Oh very cool! I’m more into the healing aspects of internal arts so wouldn’t really learn this kind of thing but it would be very interesting to experience. Thanks for sharing! Is he based in Jakarta? I have family there and visit from time to time. 
 

Also what kind of stuff do you do?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

I won't be emptying my life savings to experience an electrical miracle cure anytime soon but I like to think that all sorts of stuff contrary to science-as-we-know-it are possible. 

The thing is, Rudi, Pak John and anyone else with this ability never claim that faqi is a miracle cure that will magically fix your body. It is only one very effective part of treatment. You still have herbs, pills and other TCM related techniques taken and done along with faqi.
 

Faqi is not for entertainment or to destroy your enemies like a Sith Lord, as some people here like to think. It is just a byproduct of proper cultivation that just happens to be useful in healing. 

[wandelaar]

4 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Yes but you can check with your own eyes and hands (if they let you) that no machine is being used, and that they are barefoot? Being barefoot is key because these zapping machines only work if you are wearing shoes. 

 

Indeed - you cannot use such a machine in your shoes when you are barefoot. But I'm not so sure that the machine (or some other gadget) wouldn't work when you wear it somewhere else on your body. Ideally one should investigate the electrical field around the person who does those kind of things. If a concealed gadget is used than one would probably find it, and if not than some interesting information would be gathered about the physical form of the electrical chi phenomenon. Have such investigations already been done? I vaguely remember some pictures but I'm not sure.

[Maddie]

21 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Faqi is not for entertainment or to destroy your enemies like a Sith Lord, as some people here like to think. 

 

That's exactly what I want to think! 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

15 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

That's exactly what I want to think! 

“I am become death, the destroyer of worlds” - Me after doing 10 mins of meditation

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

“I am become death, the destroyer of worlds” - Me after doing 10 mins of meditation

 

"I should start a YouTube channel.... I really should have handled that grappling situation in jujitsu last week differently..... do snail's dream?...." after 30 seconds of meditation. 

[Partez]

6 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Funny that the video with Dodie Magis is called: "magnetism" or "mesmerism". That is precisely where in the West hypnotism historically derived from. So again chi demonstrations and hypnotism might be the same thing as far as the real part goes.

That's right, and magnetism is largely dismissed by hypnotist, ironically in the same way as hypnosis is dismissed by the larger community, for being too "cooky"

 

 

5 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Oh very cool! I’m more into the healing aspects of internal arts so wouldn’t really learn this kind of thing but it would be very interesting to experience. Thanks for sharing! Is he based in Jakarta? I have family there and visit from time to time. 
 

Also what kind of stuff do you do?

Looks like he's from Jakarta based on his site: http://www.dodiemagis.net/

I do the same "thing" he does.  Hypnosis, magnetism, "energy" healing.  Whatever label you want to place on it, I personally believe the mechanics behind it are the same.

I use it for healing also in my practice, and it's great for psychosomatic symptoms like fibromyalgia.

 

6 hours ago, wandelaar said:

So again chi demonstrations and hypnotism might be the same thing as far as the real part goes.

Well that's it.  It's impossible to draw the line in a way, and that's why I love hypnosis because it skirts the line of what's possible.

When a hypnotist "glues" a person's hands together, is it because there is a sticky "Qi" that they are activating?  Are they just imagining it?  Does imagination control "Qi"?  Then what is "Qi" really?  Who knows.
 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Partez