The concept of God

[old3bob]

but mind is a servant that is not meant to be the master..."God" brings about mind but is not limited or circumscribed by it, for all of the mind (and mind's) or the vastness of mind is a still a thing.  

 

thinking we are essentially our minds and all of its potential complications is forgetting that we are Spirit...

Edited November 1, 2023 by old3bob

[silent thunder]

On 10/30/2023 at 10:31 PM, Nungali said:

 

But  ........   " illogical "   .

almost always... c'est la vie.

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

but mind is a servant that is not meant to be the master..."God" brings about mind but is not limited or circumscribed by it, for all of the mind (and mind's) or the vastness of mind is a still a thing.  

 

thinking we are essentially our minds and all of its potential complications is forgetting that we are Spirit...
 

I... say that the (mind-)development that is mindfulness of in-breathing and out-breathing is not for one of muddled mindfulness, not for one not clearly conscious.

(Anapanasatisutta, MN III 84, Pali Text Society III p 126 tr Horner)

 

 

I declare, Ananda, that the practice of intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing is not a mindfulness that is relaxed or composed.  Wherefore, Ananda, I say (a person) dwells in mind contemplating mind, ardent, self-possessed and mindful...

(SN V 325, Pali Text Society V p 288, tr Woodward)

 

 

The "(mind)development that is mindfulness of in-breathing and out-breathing", as Horner translates in the middle-length sayings, or "the practice of intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" as Woodward translates in the kindred sayings, constituted Gautama's way of living "most of the time", especially in the rainy season.

 

[Mark Foote]

16 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Everything that exists in the material world can be described in terms of body and soul with only one exception.  The body of a rock is the outer dimension, the soul of the rock is its inner essence.  The body of a cloud is its outer dimension, the soul of a cloud is its inner essence.

 

The outer dimension of a rock and a cloud, I would expect, are easy to conceptualize.  Perhaps it's the soul that gets tricky?

 

Do you remember the exchange I had with one of the buddhists, "C T" in the "Enlightenment" thread about the hammer?  In that dialogue I described some aspects of the soul of a hammer.  The body of a hammer, hopefully is not a problem to conceptualize.

 

Buddhism denies the soul, right?  If so, that will likely be an obstacle in discussing this too deeply.  You would probably need to temporarily set aside buddhism in order to appreciate my point of view.
 

I do recall the exchange about the hammer, vaguely!  

There is a mention of gods in the teachings of Gautama the Buddha, and of a supreme god, in a story about a man searching to find the end of suffering.  When the gentleman finally reaches the supreme god, and asks "where can the end of suffering be found", he receives in response a declaration from the god that he, the god, is "the supreme god".  After asking the question three times, and receiving the same answer three times, the god summons him up close and whispers in his ear that he, the supreme god, cannot answer the question, and the man should go back to earth and ask Gautama the Shakyan instead.

Similarly there is mention of the heavens, but the best outcome in the teachings of Gautama is not just not to return on any level, but to cease entirely.  Maybe that's possible, if the cessation of "determinate thought", of intent, of will, of volition, in feeling and perceiving has taken place in this lifetime.  That's the teaching, as far as I know.

To be clear, that is not the absence of feeling and perceiving I'm speaking of, but the absence of the habitual or volitive self in feeling and perceiving.  Like three card Monte in the back of the bus, what happened to the self in feeling and perceiving?  Wasn't there in the first place, but hard to experience.




 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

I... say that the (mind-)development that is mindfulness of in-breathing and out-breathing is not for one of muddled mindfulness, not for one not clearly conscious.

(Anapanasatisutta, MN III 84, Pali Text Society III p 126 tr Horner)

 

 

I declare, Ananda, that the practice of intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing is not a mindfulness that is relaxed or composed.  Wherefore, Ananda, I say (a person) dwells in mind contemplating mind, ardent, self-possessed and mindful...

(SN V 325, Pali Text Society V p 288, tr Woodward)

 

 

The "(mind)development that is mindfulness of in-breathing and out-breathing", as Horner translates in the middle-length sayings, or "the practice of intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" as Woodward translates in the kindred sayings, constituted Gautama's way of living "most of the time", especially in the rainy season.
 

 

yea that is a step, btw. the historic Buddha did not speak much about contemplating on his kidney function or other such processes.  Such things are meant to take of themselves without us having to concentrate much on them, and if concentrating on them in the wrong way people could really screw things up!

Edited November 1, 2023 by old3bob

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I see quite a lot of you are jewish, witch is ofc perf fine… but it is allowed to bring politics in? If youd forgive me, i cant help but sympathize with the palestinians, considering their treatment and oppression, and i am also worried that the actions of Netanyahus goverment might lead to an enourmos rise in anti-semittism, and that the geo-politics of the situation might bring all Israelis with them to the abyss. Sadly, i am worried it is to late allready. 

 

This is an issue I have a lot of the time  .... I see it reflected even in a tiny small day to day social scale ;

 

Yes, that person's actions where bad , wrong, terrible, over the top .... it should not have happened  .... BUT    why the hell where you goading / harassing /  being an absolute arse / constantly stealing / bullying / or whatever it was   them so much  and thinking there would be no repercussions  ? 

[thelerner]

I've dropped this vipassana inspired preamble to meditation as being too intellect driven, but I think using it for a while did me good.

 

Basically it's a long statement of what I'm not. 

I'm not my thoughts, they come and go like clouds.

I'm not my emotions, I honor them and let them pass.

I'm not my body, it is an intimate vehicle I inhabit.

I am not my possessions..

I am not my family

I am not my job

I am not my past

I am not my future.. (rambles on, depending on my mood) and finishes with

I am breath and awareness.

 

It's an in depth way of saying I'm not my mind and the multitude that comes with it.

 

<huh indepth is not considered a single word and should be written as in depth or in-depth>  Too bad, I like it alot.

 

[Daniel]

"I am breath and awareness" - these come and go as well.

 

I'm one who has thoughts

I'm one who has emotions

I'm one who has a body

I'm one who has/had possessions

I'm one who has family

I'm one who has/had a job

I'm one who has a past

I'm one who has a future

 

... I'm one who is wasting the present thinking about what I am and/or what I am not.

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, thelerner said:

I've dropped this vipassana inspired preamble to meditation as being too intellect driven, but I think using it for a while did me good.

 

Basically it's a long statement of what I'm not. 

I'm not my thoughts, they come and go like clouds.

I'm not my emotions, I honor them and let them pass.

I'm not my body, it is an intimate vehicle I inhabit.

I am not my possessions..

I am not my family

I am not my job

I am not my past

I am not my future.. (rambles on, depending on my mood) and finishes with

I am breath and awareness.

 

Along the lines of that last statement:
 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages 

When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. (At such a moment,) the flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases ....  Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow.

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:
 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

(sentences taken from Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages, emphasis added)

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

On 11/1/2023 at 2:35 PM, old3bob said:

 

yea that is a step, btw. the historic Buddha did not speak much about contemplating on his kidney function or other such processes.  Such things are meant to take of themselves without us having to concentrate much on them, and if concentrating on them in the wrong way people could really screw things up!
 

Hate to break it to you, old3bob:
 

The Nine Cemetery Contemplations (Satipatthana Sutta)

 

(1) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body dead one, two, or three days; swollen, blue and festering, thrown in the charnel ground, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it."
 

Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-factors in the body, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in the body, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-factors in the body. Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: "The body exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus also, monks, a monk lives contemplating the body in the body.

 

(2) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground, being eaten by crows, hawks, vultures, dogs, jackals or by different kinds of worms, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it."
 

Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body...

 

(3) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton with some flesh and blood attached to it, held together by the tendons...

 

(4) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton blood-besmeared and without flesh, held together by the tendons...

 

(5) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton without flesh and blood, held together by the tendons...

 

(6) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to disconnected bones, scattered in all directions_here a bone of the hand, there a bone of the foot, a shin bone, a thigh bone, the pelvis, spine and skull...

 

(7) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground, reduced to bleached bones of conchlike color...

 

(8) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground reduced to bones, more than a year-old, lying in a heap...

 

(9) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground, reduced to bones gone rotten and become dust, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it."

 

Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in the body, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in the body, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in the body. Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: "The body exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus also, monks, a monk lives contemplating the body in the body.

 

 

Also, in his prescription for the development of psychic powers, Gautama spoke of "as below, so above; as above, so below."  He explained this:

 

Herein (one) surveys this very body upwards from the soles of the feet, downwards from the top of the head, as something enclosed by skin and full of manifold impurities.  He thus considers:  There are in this body hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, skin, teeth, flesh, nerves, intestines, mesentery, stomach, feces, blie, phlegm, matter, blood, sweat, lymph, fat, tears, lubricant, saliva, mucus, oil, urine.  That... is how (one) dwells "as below, so above; as above, so below."

If the medical science of the time had been more advanced, I'm sure he would have mentioned the organs as well.

The cemetery contemplations are particularly interesting to me, because he observed "held together by the tendons", so he knew what the tendons were, although I think the reference is really to ligaments, since the ligaments connect bone to bone (not the tendons, which are muscle to bone).
 

The Tai-Chi master Cheng Man-ch'ing mentions three stages in the development of chi, and all of them involve attention to the ligaments (see A Way of Living).

 

 

[old3bob]

I also hate to break it to you and the historic Buddha, but in India (and in many other times and places) most people who have passed are burned in a funeral pyre until only traces of bones are left without all those morbid ponderings mentioned being necessary or of some kind of merit?

Edited November 5, 2023 by old3bob

[NaturaNaturans]

So, we have been talking about God. And then we have the devil. I havent offered him a thought, but does 

anyone else belive in the satan?

And is the biblical satan our old friends Lucifer/pan/dioniousys/prometeus and the OT god.. the demiurge?

Apologies @Daniel, i dont take any of this stuff literally, but from an historical, Christian/gnostic perspective?

 

————

also, a lot here, myself included, seem to view God as present in everything (the universe/nature)… but is he also outside it?

Edited November 13, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[Sahaja]

Charnel ground practices were also important in the later development of the Hindu tantric traditions. I believe both cremations and open air decompositions took place in these spots. 

[Nungali]

On 11/5/2023 at 12:18 PM, old3bob said:

I also hate to break it to you and the historic Buddha, but in India (and in many other times and places) most people who have passed are burned in a funeral pyre until only traces of bones are left without all those morbid ponderings mentioned being necessary or of some kind of merit?

 

" ... and also, if one sees only traces of bones and a bit of ash  .... " 

 

 

 

IMO  ( but what would I know ) they are 'meditations' on our physical nature , which shall pass and be gone ; 'non-attachment ' to that nature .

 

I experienced it when I did my own versions , using not obscure , other culture experiences and conditions but my own  ...

 

Spoiler

I had been  working at a hospital for some time, including occasionally in an autopsy , so I was familiar with the techniques  and procedure  . So I took 350 micrograms of (good old fashioned pure  ) LSD and visualized  / 'hallucinated' watching my own autopsy . 

 

It was a fairly 'potent '  meditation .

 

[Nungali]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:41 AM, NaturaNaturans said:

So, we have been talking about God. And then we have the devil. I havent offered him a thought, but does 

anyone else belive in the satan?

And is the biblical satan our old friends Lucifer/pan/dioniousys/prometeus and the OT god.. the demiurge?

Apologies @Daniel, i dont take any of this stuff literally, but from an historical, Christian/gnostic perspective?

 

————

also, a lot here, myself included, seem to view God as present in everything (the universe/nature)… but is he also outside it?

 

 

 

 

ARIES. Who are ye, brethren?

 

SATAN-TYPHON. I am the twin brother of the sun.

..

LEO. Brother, if thou be indeed our brother, what wilt thou say?

 

SATAN-TYPHON. O Sun, my brother, is it thy will that I have speech with thee? For I have lain with thee nine moons in the womb of our mother; for we have loved as none have loved; for I am closer knit with thee than light and darkness, or that life and death! "

 

- The Rite of Sol .

[NaturaNaturans]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

ARIES. Who are ye, brethren?

 

SATAN-TYPHON. I am the twin brother of the sun.

..

LEO. Brother, if thou be indeed our brother, what wilt thou say?

 

SATAN-TYPHON. O Sun, my brother, is it thy will that I have speech with thee? For I have lain with thee nine moons in the womb of our mother; for we have loved as none have loved; for I am closer knit with thee than light and darkness, or that life and death! "

 

- The Rite of Sol .

I am not following brother 

[old3bob]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:41 PM, NaturaNaturans said:

So, we have been talking about God. And then we have the devil. I havent offered him a thought, but does 

anyone else belive in the satan?

And is the biblical satan our old friends Lucifer/pan/dioniousys/prometeus and the OT god.. the demiurge?

Apologies @Daniel, i dont take any of this stuff literally, but from an historical, Christian/gnostic perspective?

 

————

also, a lot here, myself included, seem to view God as present in everything (the universe/nature)… but is he also outside it?

 

there are definitely some evil and malicious beings in the lower astral and you don't want to mess with them!  Do they have a dark lord or something similar, yes; as for related names - don't mess with them.  Btw the hells and any beings there are not eternally there except in some interpretation's of Abrahamic religions, since for such to go on eternally they would have to have their own separate root which does not exist.  

[NaturaNaturans]

18 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

there are definitely some evil and malicious beings in the lower astral and you don't want to mess with them!  Do they have a dark lord or something similar, yes; as for related names - don't mess with them.  Btw the hells and any beings there are not eternally there except in some interpretation's of Abrahamic religions, since for such to go on eternally they would have to have their own separate root which does not exist.  

You are right, i do not want to mess with it. But tbh i am not convinced of their literal existence, and also the term demon/devil/satan is a very loaded term, as you touch on. Lucifer means light bringer, does it not? Hell and Hades, the Eulers of the norse and greek underworld forexample, does not seem to have been viewed as evil (as far as i know). Same goes for Osiris.
I do not see anything inherintley evil about knowledge, truth, freedom etc. as the older gods and myths seems to represent, allthough i would not like to rebel against «the most high.» It is a fine line, it seems.

 

Edit, continuing: If we accept the concept of a creator, or God, then it follows that «evil» forces are a creation of him as well, does it not?

Edited November 15, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[thelerner]

On 11/13/2023 at 4:41 PM, NaturaNaturans said:

So, we have been talking about God. And then we have the devil. I havent offered him a thought, but does 

anyone else belive in the satan?

And is the biblical satan our old friends Lucifer/pan/dioniousys/prometeus and the OT god.. the demiurge?

Apologies @Daniel, i dont take any of this stuff literally, but from an historical, Christian/gnostic perspective?

 

————

also, a lot here, myself included, seem to view God as present in everything (the universe/nature)… but is he also outside it?

Not me.  I don't see the need to blame the supernatural for the bad, ugly, selfish, evil that men do.  Blaming things on the devil seems a way to slip human responsibility.  Even in natural disaster or disease it feels like blaming a deity mitigates the need to build better, find the source because it's supernatural. 

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I am not following brother 

 

In some traditions  'God ' , or more accurately  some type of Son or aspect of God  /  'Golden Boy '   and  'The Devil' are brothers .

 

The idea even got used here .....

 

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/28995fc0-231f-45f7-af87-a11ed2b6c733

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

You are right, i do not want to mess with it. But tbh i am not convinced of their literal existence, and also the term demon/devil/satan is a very loaded term, as you touch on. Lucifer means light bringer, does it not? Hell and Hades, the Eulers of the norse and greek underworld forexample, does not seem to have been viewed as evil (as far as i know). Same goes for Osiris.
I do not see anything inherintley evil about knowledge, truth, freedom etc. as the older gods and myths seems to represent, allthough i would not like to rebel against «the most high.» It is a fine line, it seems.

 

Edit, continuing: If we accept the concept of a creator, or God, then it follows that «evil» forces are a creation of him as well, does it not?

 

yes ... which requires a 'wiggle'   (or in other terms ; theology ) .

 

let's list some options regarding your observation;

 

" God " is evil .

God doesnt care about evil.

God is beyond good or /and evil.
God is only good, evil comes from not following God's instructions or wishes .

There is a Devil and God is at war with him

There is a Devil and the war with God is enacted through us and our behavior and choices.

Good and Evil are local cultural values and beneath or apart from God's concerns .

The world is evil as it is a creation of the devil or similar , good comes about by rejecting the evil world .

During creation some type of 'accident' happened .

Its a test for us .

We have God and the Devil reversed in our understanding  of things .

 

(feel free to add some more)

[NaturaNaturans]

34 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Good and Evil are local cultural values and beneath or apart from God's concerns .

Id think this is answer tbh. There can be no doubt that morality differs enourmosly from culture to culture. Seems the «preachers» of morality and self proclaimed spokesmen of «the one,» use it more to control, enrich themselves and demonize the «godless» and immoral tribe who happens to be their rivals. Evil done by a people far away from you doesnt seem to bother the them as much

[NaturaNaturans]

 

[Nungali]

... or , evil done by your own  people ... far away from your place  , doesnt bother  US  as much .

 

Its a bit like having a large American style car , or one of those long bonnet Bugatti's , you run into a pedestrian .... they are way out there somewhere at the end of the bumper , you are feeling not that responsible ... but in a small modern car , with a short bonnet  and a view from the window seems like you are looking straight down onto the road , you  run into a pedestrian, they are pressed right up against yer windscreen , 'in your face ' , so to speak , you feel  a bit more responsible .

 

Spoiler

I should probably apologize for my bad sense of humor .

 

Motor vehicle accident jokes are not  very popular . I found that out the other day , I was  making a few jokes about them and people complained :  " Its not funny, property is damaged , people can be injured or even killed ... at least wait until the ambulance leaves . "

 

 

Anyway , thats my 'raid and run ' theory on the development of 'evil' in the world  ... those that could do shit 'far away' to 'others' and then escape the consequences  ( either via horseback or ship ) felt free to 'commit evil' on others .  Whereas in Australia , pre colonial, we have no such concepts  *  people where all connected , no fast escape from breaking the law , you probably had  relatives, potential wives, hunting and travel rights in others territories .

 

* Eg , they had wars ( two lines of warriors  facing each other , one on one )  ... but no atrocities or massacres ,  killing women and children , destroying crops and animals , 'salting the earth',  genocides, etc .  where unthinkable concepts to them  ( as was sacrificial culture, pain as punishment  ( they where horrified when seeing the first British 'flogging' punishments ) ,  animal domestication  or slavery ( which I think are related to each other , one leads to the other  ) .

Edited November 15, 2023 by Nungali

[NaturaNaturans]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

... or , evil done by your won people ... far away from your place  , doesnt bother  US  as much .

 

Its a bit like having a large American style car , or one of those long bonnet Bugatti's , you run into a pedestrian .... they are way out there somewhere at the end of the bumper , you are feeling not that responsible ... but in a small modern car , with a short bonnet  and a view from the window seems like you are looking straight down onto the road , you  run into a pedestrian, they are pressed right up against yer windscreen , 'in your face ' , so to speak , you feel  a bit more responsible .

 

  Hide contents

I should probably apologize for my bad sense of humor .

 

Motor vehicle accident jokes are not  very popular . I found that out the other day , I was  making a few jokes about them and people complained :  " Its not funny, property is damaged , people can be injured or even killed ... at least wait until the ambulance leaves . "

 

 

Anyway , thats my 'raid and run ' theory on the development of 'evil' in the world  ... those that could do shit 'far away' to 'others' and then escape the consequences  ( either via horseback or ship ) felt free to 'commit evil' on others .  Whereas in Australia , pre colonial, we have no such concepts  *  people where all connected , no fast escape from breaking the law , you probably had  relatives, potential wives, hunting and travel rights in others territories .

 

* Eg , they had wars ( two lines of warriors  facing each other , one on one )  ... but no atrocities or massacres ,  killing women and children , destroying crops and animals , 'salting the earth',  genocides, etc .  where unthinkable concepts to them  ( as was sacrificial culture, pain as punishment  ( they where horrified when seeing the first British 'flogging' punishments ) ,  animal domestication  or slavery ( which I think are related to each other , one leads to the other  ) .

Are you familiar with Dunbars number? I really think the increased size and complexity of civilisation has opened the door for unspeakable evil, madness and detatchment, alienation and demonisation.