Let's Talk About Enlightenment(s)

[exorcist_1699]

On 2023/9/27 at 6:08 AM, Daniel said:

 

Thank you very-very much.  If you've been reading my posts where I contemplate math as a method for a realization of 無, this fits very much with my own experience.  But, for me it's not scary at all.  I don't consider it the only way, naturally.  

 

If possible, I would very much appreciate more detail regarding:  "In fact, to our mind , abstraction is always something  difficult ; there are analytic abstraction , say  maths , which deal with abstractions of  numerical quantity ,  relations , arrangements  or spacial dimensions of things around  us , that makes us  frightened".

 

Why frightened?  I can understand painful, because the mind is stretching.  Perhaps, as I'm typing this, it has to with challenging assumptions about reality?  And if those strongly held beliefs are disturbed, it's frightening?

 

Maths, to most people , is always something  difficult . Differentiating  things around us , chopping them into parts , and then  find their relationships ;  identifying what features of things are important , what are minor ; repeating  the process from induction to deduction, then deduction to induction..; using different symbols and  words to  describing those  differentiation and abstraction in different applications ..all are things not  natural to our mind, they need some kind of analytic power,  some kind of persistent  concentration .  And  even if  people find it  easy in their  youth,  they will  find it difficult in their old age . The power and delicacy of our mind  , in fact , comes from our jing ( essence ) , so the deterioration of it will give  us a dull mind ;  memorizing  things  no longer that easy ,  learning  new technologies no longer so quickly ..etc .  

 

Fortunately  No-mind does not require our spending jing , qi or mental power ♦ ,  instead  it helps us grabbing   us jing and qi from  the surroundings  ;  so if talking about replenishing  jing , even reversing aging ,  especially for  old guys/ ladies ,   it is really a god given way .

 

 ♦ if it still  requires us to squeeze our minds , then it is not  No-mind .

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by exorcist_1699

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, Daniel said:

Question, please:  when you say "traditional" which tradition is it?

Buddhist and Taoist

[wstein]

On 9/26/2023 at 7:19 PM, Gerard said:

 

A: my view, endless, eternal, infinite...as we all are. Our Minds have no limits, only the ones imposed by this tiny physical experience of ours, which is only a small fraction of what we truly are. 

 

NIRVANA is a myth from the point of view of extinction, end of suffering. This view needs to be seriously updated as being incomplete. 

 

You never CEASE TO EXIST.

Just because you are "endless, eternal, infinite" does not mean you can't be uncreated.

 

Our minds have limits, most notably restricted to things that can be known.

[old3bob]

we are not our minds, minds are our great tools,  

Edited September 29, 2023 by old3bob

[ChiDragon]

On 9/22/2023 at 7:08 AM, Daniel said:

I notice the plural for enlightements.  It seems reasonable to me that enlightenment should be plural.  Each person is different, and has different capabilities, talents, flaws, etc.  From this, I think it follows that there would be different types of enlightenment.

 

Would you, or others, please elaborate on this?  What are different types of enlightenment?  Do they always follow a progession which is known?  Are there different types of enlightement which are attained by different schools?  Any additional details shared would be appreciated.

Are there different types of enlightenment? I think enlightenment should not be classified as types. Whatever one enlightened is just an enlightenment. Whatever category one is enlightened falls into is just an enlightenment. It doesn't specify a type of enlightenment. IMO Enlightenment is a ambiguous puzzle that was solved by wisdom in sorting things out through meditation. One needs a clear consciousness and mindfulness for such practice of cultivation.

[Cobie]

7 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Are there different types of enlightenment? …

No there’s only one, always the same. It’s literal. The light shines. That’s it. 
 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

When one has experienced it, one knows. The light shines. 

 

When one hasn’t experienced it, one cannot exclude anything.

Unfortunately then people tend to start thinking about it,

that stops the process. 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Cobie

[old3bob]

Depends on the school one is in...for instance and with very short comments: in Taoism there are different levels of immortals, in Buddhism their texts mention 8 liberations and a "beyond" those, in Hinduism there are the four main branches which are not the same and then there a great many sub-branches of those that are not the same, in Christianity there is mainly salvation to a heavenly realm with Jesus,  I won't get into dozens of others...anyway one can spend decades making comparisons and correlations.

 

btw, i'd say even light disappears

[Mark Foote]

On 9/22/2023 at 7:08 AM, Daniel said:

 

... the plural for enlightements.  It seems reasonable to me that enlightenment should be plural.  Each person is different, and has different capabilities, talents, flaws, etc.  From this, I think it follows that there would be different types of enlightenment.

 

Would you, or others, please elaborate on this?  What are different types of enlightenment?  Do they always follow a progession which is known?  Are there different types of enlightement which are attained by different schools?  Any additional details shared would be appreciated.

 

I don't think it's straightforward.  

Gautama taught initial and further meditative states, particular states in a particular order.  "Determinate thought", or volition, in action ceased in some of these states.  In particular, volition in speech ceased in the first, volition in inhalation and exhalation (and activity of the body generally) ceased in the fourth, and volition in feeling and perceiving (activity of the mind) ceased in the last.
 

Here's the thing--Gautama taught the four truths, and you could say insight into the four truths was his enlightenment.  Presumably that insight arrived with the cessation of "determinate thought" in feeling and perceiving, yet he never makes the connection explicit.

 

How does a person go about ceasing willful action, abandoning intent, relinquishing deliberation in such a fashion as to bring about the meditative states, and in particular the cessation of "determinate thought" in speech, body, and mind?

By means of lack of desire, said Gautama; whatever you think a particular meditative state to be, he said, it is otherwise.

With the attainment of the ceasing of ("determinate thought" in) feeling in perceiving, presumably it's apparent that the exercise of will or intent results in a persistence of consciousness, which in turn results in a stationing of consciousness, which results in a recurrence of consciousness.  An identification of self with the body, the feelings, the mind, the habitual activities, or the mental states accompanies the recurrence of consciousness, and Gautama taught that such identification is suffering.  That insight was apparently his enlightenment.

It's my opinion, which I've expressed before, that most of what passes for enlightenment is the attainment of the cessation of "determinate thought" in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and the ability to incorporate that cessation in a mindfulness of body, feelings, thought, and mental states so as to constitute a way of living.  That was Gautama's way of living "most of the time", something he said was "perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living besides".

Kodo Sawaki:  gain is delusion, loss is enlightenment. 

Hakuin, on how his enlightenment made him ill, and he was healed by the "butter" meditation:

https://buddhismnow.com/2015/09/12/zen-sickness-by-zen-master-hakuin/

12th century Chinese teacher Foyan on Zen sicknesses:
 

In my school, there are only two kinds of sickness.  One is to go looking for a donkey riding on the donkey.  The other is to be unwilling to dismount once having mounted the donkey.
 

… Once you have recognized the donkey, to mount it and be unwilling to dismount is the sickness that is most difficult to treat.  I tell you that you need not mount the donkey; you are the donkey!
 

(“Instant Zen:  Waking Up in the Present”, tr T. Cleary, Shambala p 4; I have an explanation, here)

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Mark Foote