Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz

[Cobie]

 

 

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

Just so we're looking at the same thing, I'm seeing 'yu' …

yu4 , that narrows down the search. The Kroll entries are organised also on the ‘tone’ of the character, first tone first etc. ( I use numbers, Kroll uses ‘accents’, e.g. ma1/mā ; ma2/má ;  ma3/mǎ ;  ma4/mà ).

 

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

… 2015 edition, Kroll dictionary of classical and medieval chinese, Brill.

 

I have Kroll dictionary of classical and medieval chinese, revised edition, Brill, copyright 2017. 
 

Quote

… the character displayed in the screenshot on pg. 573, right column, 2nd from the top. 

 

In my copy, on pg. 573, right column, 2nd from the top:  裕 ( 衤+ 谷 )

The first character in the Henricks book (screen shot):  浴 ( 氵+ 谷 ) 

(in my copy, on pg. 572, left column, last entry).

 

On 22/08/2023 at 11:44 PM, Daniel said:

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

@Cobie,  thank you!  First, In support of the distinction you're making and the careful study of the characters, chapter 39:

 

 

The author/scribe of this version certainly distinguished between the two characters, but the other versions do not.  If you check out ctext.org, chap 39 has identical characters here.  And, it's important to note, the comparison charts on daoisopen.com do not accurately relate these differences in spite of claiming to analyze the characters from the MWD.

 

Second, please look at the two pictures below from chap 6 and chap 32?  Do you think these two are the same character?  This becomes handwriting analysis.  I'm thinking they are.  And if I look at chap 39, I think that's the same character too.  If so, then I think the next step, as I said earlier, is to use context to discern the intended meaning of the character.  Process of elimination, from the distinction brought in chap 39, I think it's safe conclude it is *not* 'valley'.  If it were, there would be no difference in the characters in 39.  So, what is it?

 

Hopefully you understand why I was considering 裕, abundant, as a possible candidate?  It fits the theme of chap 5 & 6, both, nicely.  It's inexhaustble.  However, 浴, soaring, like a bird or a flock, might fit well too. 

 

Chapter 6:

 

 

From chapter 32:

 

 

All of that said, now that we are looking at the same thing, I agree, the character in question, looks to be a closer match to the character Kroll has on the bottom of pg 572, left column, rather than top of pg. 573 on the right column.  It's the two 45deg strokes compared to a perfectly horizontal stroke that I think makes the difference. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

The author/scribe of this version certainly distinguished between the two characters, but the other versions do not. …

 

Apparently some take it 浴 stands for 谷 , and use 谷 throughout.
DIO has replaced the character, while Henricks has kept the original character but translates as if it’s the other one. 

 

There’s lots of debate on the right transcription of the original characters, e.g.

https://www.colorado.edu/faculty/richter-matthias/sites/default/files/attached-files/richter_towards_a_profile_of_graphic_variation.pdf

I don’t read stuff like that myself. I have no knowledge of palaeography and tend to use the characters in the Henricks book.

 

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… Do you think these two are the same character?  

 

Definitely. In all these cases the character is 浴 ( 氵+ 谷 ). Henricks merely uses another type font. 

氵 is the form of the water radical (水) when used in a compound character (it usually appears on the left).

 

~~~<>~~~
Re. 裕 ( 衤+ 谷 )

~~~<>~~~

This is an entirely different character, it’s not in the script. 

衤 is the form of the clothes radical (衣部) when appearing at the left side of a compound character.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

26 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Henricks merely uses another type font. 

 

I very much hope that the pictures in the book are actual pictures of the text found in the tomb.  Maybe that's silly. Feel free to laugh. 

 

Is this not the case?  You say Henricks is using another font?  Does that mean the images I'm looking at are **not** the actual text itself?

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

 

 

Quote

I very much hope that the pictures in the book are actual pictures of the text found in the tomb.  Maybe that's silly. Feel free to laugh. 

 

No worries, it took me many threads on OD to sort that one out.

 

Quote

I very much hope that the pictures in the book are actual pictures of the text found in the tomb.  Is this not the case? 

 

No. See Henricks book page xv. Text A was written in “small seal” script; text B in “clerical” script.
 

WARNING  Don’t read the following paper, if you do you will never again think you know what the DDJ says. (cry emoji here) There’s an example, 聖 , top page 173 of https://www.colorado.edu/faculty/richter-matthias/sites/default/files/attached-files/richter_towards_a_profile_of_graphic_variation.pdf 

Anyway, the characters in the Henricks book (and also the ones on DIO) are a transcription; they are modern Chinese characters (but in the meaning as used in Classical Chinese).

 

Quote

You say Henricks is using another font?  Does that mean the images I'm looking at are **not** the actual text itself?

The Henricks character and 浴 are both the same modern Chinese character, just another type font. Like the difference between A and A .
浴 is the transcription, it’s not the original on the silk.

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

@Eduardo thanks for your ‘like’. 

[Cobie]

.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

 

 

On 19/08/2023 at 6:17 PM, Daniel said:

I think we should move it to a new thread, quite honestly.  

 

I agree.

 

@dwai my sincere apologies for going so off topic. If you would like to, it would be great if this whole discussion could be split off and moved to my PPD, starting from this post: 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

There is already a topic asking for a TTC translation containing pictures (that is: photographs) of the texts as they were found in the tomb:

I would still be interested in having such a book.

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Cobie said:

I’m glad to see you embraced this idea.  

 

It fits, but, I'm not commiting to it as *the* intended meaning.  What I embrace is the method for analyzing the text in detail.

 

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But how did we get talking about Ch. 6? It was because you asked a question.

 

My question was about the bellows being a euphemism as described.  I wanted to see any other text of this genre using the bellows as a euphemism in this way.

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, wandelaar said:

There is already a topic asking for a TTC translation containing pictures (that is: photographs) of the texts as they were found in the tomb:

I would still be interested in having such a book.

 

thank you.

[Cobie]

.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Righto, I’ve deleted my posts. 

 

 

 

But why?  Why delete them?  

[Michael Sternbach]

22 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

But why?  Why delete them?  

 

Personally, I find it quite frustrating to come across an interesting thread in which half of the posts have been deleted. 😫

[Cobie]