How to Be Spontaneous

[Mig]

On 2/10/2023 at 8:53 PM, ChiDragon said:

 

You are right. This is only to convey the thought of spontaneous which it is not the philosophy of Zhuangzi. Zhuangzi does not concern who will be a virtuous person or not. He just want things to be happened in a  spontaneous natural way.

Where do we find in zhuāngzǐ 莊子talking about spontaneous natural way?

[ChiDragon]

6 hours ago, Mig said:

Where do we find in zhuāngzǐ 莊子talking about spontaneous natural way?

 

Spontaneity is human action responsive or according to an event.

 

Natural way is the act of nature.

Edited March 11, 2023 by ChiDragon

[stirling]

If you can sit in meditation and have the mind be quiet and empty for a few moments you have finally managed to look at the fountain of "spontaneity". 

 

Trying to contrive this moment through your actions so it is "natural" or "perfect" is missing the mark. 

 

Being in alignment with the Dao isn't something one "does", it is dropping all the "doing" and just being present with what is happening in this moment.

[Lairg]

In my experience there is spontaneity on various levels:

 

- physical e.g. blinking eye to protect against incoming

- emotional e.g. fear of authority figures

- mental e.g. rejecting statements that are contrary to learned beliefs

-  heart e.g. joyfulness

 

Not all spontaneity is positive

 

 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

In my experience there is spontaneity on various levels:

 

- physical e.g. blinking eye to protect against incoming

- emotional e.g. fear of authority figures

- mental e.g. rejecting statements that are contrary to learned beliefs

-  heart e.g. joyfulness

 

Not all spontaneity is positive

 

In this case, we aren't talking about some individual aspect that appears to be a subcategory of the human experience, but instead the way experiencing IS. There is the experience of things happening, and no person or conscious decision on what actions appear to happen. Pure doing. No blinking of the eye, emotion, acceptance or rejection or heart. Just being. Complete Wu Wei.

 

It isn't that spontaneity is positive or negative, it is simply being with things as they are.

Edited March 11, 2023 by stirling

[Mig]

On 3/10/2023 at 6:43 PM, ChiDragon said:

 

Spontaneity is human action responsive or according to an event.

 

Natural way is the act of nature.

Where in zhuāngzǐ 莊子 talks about spontaneity? Or is it the interpretations that explain more about the natural way and it is translated as spontaneity?

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, Mig said:

Or is it the interpretations that explain more about the natural way and it is translated as spontaneity?

Yes, exactly.

[Taoist Texts]

23 minutes ago, Mig said:

Where in zhuāngzǐ 莊子 talks about spontaneity?

here;)

https://ctext.org/zhuangzi/ens?searchu=spontaneity

24 minutes ago, Mig said:

Or is it the interpretations that explain more about the natural way and it is translated as spontaneity?

no;)

[Mig]

28 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

here;)

https://ctext.org/zhuangzi/ens?searchu=spontaneity

no;)

so it is more as in 应之以自然 in accordance to nature, so where this spontaneity comes from. I am sorry I don't see how nature can be spontaneous as if something happens is for a reason, just like atoms and whatever goes on in nature, constant flow and recycling, who knows.

[Taoist Texts]

22 minutes ago, Mig said:

应之以自然 in accordance to nature, so where this spontaneity comes from

there is no 'nature' there. 'nature' us a western concept. to transl 自然 as 'nature' is wrong. 自然 is 自 self/from 然 so/it. 自然 means something that happens from-it-self. on its own.  spontaneously. thats where this spontaneity comes from.

[steve]

I find the word nature to be a useful English word when speaking of 自然. For example, it is in the scorpion’s nature to sting, the nature of water is wetness, it is natural to cry when sad. All of these things refer to the self-so and spontaneous aspect of things, no?

[Cobie]

.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Cobie

[Mig]

On 4/6/2023 at 11:39 PM, Taoist Texts said:

there is no 'nature' there. 'nature' us a western concept. to transl 自然 as 'nature' is wrong. 自然 is 自 self/from 然 so/it. 自然 means something that happens from-it-self. on its own.  spontaneously. thats where this spontaneity comes from.

I guess is the English translation that may confuse me. Could you give an example of real life to self, so/it? An example to understand in plain English for the plebe like me.

[Mig]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:23 AM, steve said:

I find the word nature to be a useful English word when speaking of 自然. For example, it is in the scorpion’s nature to sting, the nature of water is wetness, it is natural to cry when sad. All of these things refer to the self-so and spontaneous aspect of things, no?

Isn't that more of a characteristic or properties? I still don't know how the Chinese layman will understand such concept??

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Mig said:

On 4/7/2023 at 10:39 AM, Taoist Texts said:

 自然 means something that happens from-it-self. on its own.  spontaneously. thats where this spontaneity comes from.

I guess is the English translation that may confuse me. Could you give an example of real life to self, so/it? An example to understand in plain English for the plebe like me.

sure thing. the Big Bang, the sunrise, the beating of your heart are all examples of spontaneity. something that happens without human interference and/or thinking. when we do something automatically like driving our car without thinking or jerking away our hand when touching something unexpectedly hot - that's  spontaneity.

 

Conversely whenever we deliberate on a course of action - thats not it.

[Cobie]

ziran (自然 zi4 ran2) - the state of not relying on (or existing according to) anything external.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/54593-zi4-ran2-自然/?do=findComment&comment=1003628  

 

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Cobie

[Mark Foote]

On 2/12/2023 at 11:13 PM, iinatti said:

 

Thanks!  I find this an interesting thing to think about, but as Steve says, perhaps spontaneity is the byproduct of practice, not necessarily the objective.

 

This conversation did elicit an interesting thought in me, however.  An intention is just a thought--a concept about something you might do in the future.  It is no different than any other thought that might arise in consciousness.  In my own practice, I am working on avoiding attachments to things, including such thoughts.  This is a challenge, and until thinking through this conversation, I have yet to understand why.  

 

Concepts like prajnaparamita and wu wei are a paradox because one cannot eliminate attachments phenomenon by attaching to a phenomenon.  One cannot commit to inaction, without acting.   One cannot eliminate thoughts by thinking. One cannot intend to act without intentions.   These are infinite loop statements, the type that Gödel devised. 

 

There is a subtle workaround, however.  If analyzing such an unsolvable statement in a model, they would be avoided altogether by running an iteration and finding a limit. A similar concept can also be applied in practice.  One cannot eliminate thoughts by thinking, although one can iteratively reduce or slow thoughts by thinking.  One can intend to act less on intentions.  One can commit to inaction by acting less.  One can reduce attachment to phenomenon while still attaching to the phenomenon of doing so.  Might seem like a small distinction, but its a slight change in thinking for me.     

 

Thus, if practicing a meditation and my thoughts are running wild, I do not say to myself "stop thinking,"  I say to myself "slow down your thinking"  That way I can gradually get infinitely close a non thinking state without forcing myself into a paradox.  

 

So, one cannot intend to act spontaneously.  One can only intend to be more spontaneous and gradually the spontaneity will take over. 
       

 

 

 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. 

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.

(“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

 

Koun Franz referred to a "base of consciousness" that can move away from the head.  Gautama spoke of a "one-pointedness of mind" that was synonymous with concentration.

 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.
 

(SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)

 

 

Gautama spoke of "determinate thought" as action, and of the result of determinate thought as "the activities":
 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.
 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)

 

And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.
 

(SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4)
 

 

He spoke of the cessation of "action":

 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.
 

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85)

 

 

When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.
 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

 

Gautama charted a course to the cessation of "determinate thought" in action, first in the activity of speech, then in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and finally in the activity of the mind in feeling and perceiving.

Gautama's enlightenment was his insight into the four truths--that came out of "the cessation of feeling and perceiving".  No small feat, to experience a cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving--complete spontaneity of mind--but he also taught a way of living that I believe only relied on regular experience of "the cessation of inhalation and exhalation".   Part of that way of living was the experience of thought in connection with an inhalation or an exhalation:
 

Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out.
 

(One) makes up one’s mind:
 

“Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out.

Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out.

Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out.

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced)

 

Much as you said, accepting the activity of the mind, with a positivity that allows for detachment.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11 by Mark Foote