Wilhelm

On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic arts  

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  1. 1. How do you view the classical descriptions of accomplishment in the meditative and/or energetic arts that you practice? (i.e. Arhatship, Immortality, Rainbow Body etc. or even any of the Siddhi)

    • The classics give literal descriptions of the various attainments
      10
    • The classics give metaphorical or at least non-literal descriptions of the various attainments
      4
    • I don't know
      6
    • Other
      3


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3 hours ago, freeform said:

How about Sam Harris? He seems to have completely stripped the Dharma out of meditation and replaced it with Scientism… do people have much experience with Sam Harris? I’ve only listened to one interview a few years ago…

 

I haven't dug much into Sam Harris but I felt the same from the little exposure that I had from listening to some talks and podcasts. He has supposedly done a lot of meditation and retreats in the past. But from what I gathered, very intellectual, philosophical, and science minded materialist type of dude.

 

Would be curious to hear from people what they think of the Insight Meditation Society (IMS) as I feel these guys also have a big "market or mind share" when it comes to Buddhism/meditation in the West, but I haven't spent much time on what they teach or followed their teachers...

 

Relating it back to the thread, do IMS teach more of a literal or metaphorical interpretation when it comes to the classics? 

---

 

And just thinking out loud for a sec, if the classics are taken to be more metaphorical, then that opens up a lot more subjectivity and individual interpretation (or distortions to filter through), thus leading to potentially erroneous interpretations.

Whereas literal makes the text (if it is genuinely accurate and true) to serve as more of an 'objective' standpoint of which to measure things.

 

But, having said that a lot of Daoist texts are more metaphorical in nature and require interpretation because of the need to hide the real meanings for safety and other reasons. 

 

Buddhism however could be taken as leaning more to the literal side of things... however you still have a ton of different traditions and lineages that interpret the same texts differently. 

 

The path of cultivation is a real shit show huh, times of the Kali Yuga :)

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Frank yang, imho, has had deep insights, but is unstable (or at least based on the video of his I saw which anshino had shared a few years back). It could very well be that he is bipolar, or it could also be because his realization has not stabilized. When realization has not stabilized, “knowledge” and ignorance toggle back and forth, or rather, the sun (knowledge) gets hidden behind clouds (ignorance) that keep arising. Such an individual is considered to be unprepared (akritopasak) - so for the realization to stabilize they need to go do foundational work to purify the mind. 
 

His premature proclamation of his “enlightenment” is probably a result of that very instability of realization. 

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9 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i think yes it always does. unless you have examples of other terms

I had thought the White Moon was analogous to this - but what I know about the classics could fit into my previous post so I could be mistaken.

 

Btw it looks like we're the ones who are off topic now :lol:

 

Quote

the key word is to occur. a light occurs. telepathy does not. arts do not change the reality. they change us.

So as you've experienced light through your five senses, but you've not experienced telepathy - is this how you've determined what constitutes reality?  Or have you made determinations in the negative i.e. I have not seen any empirical evidence for telepathy therefore it does not exist.  Because at some point in these arts you would've had to grapple with concepts for which empirical evidence does not exist such as immortal life, and if your system of belief includes what is and isn't possible for all of reality I would assume you set the bar higher than what you've experienced so far!  (Otherwise the implication is that you've already experienced all there is to know of life)

Quote

Amateurs exist  because of the reality of the human condition: ppl are born with a different karma. Very few of us have what it takes to become masters. The rest of us  simply does not have what it takes. Its not just a matter of ignorance. The amateurs are hardwired to actively reject the true method. Instead, they are hardwired for fantasies and materialism.

For what it's worth I believe you are correct.  I'm only pressing the point about basing belief systems as to my mind holding an active disbelief of something - because one hasn't experienced it - is qualitatively the same as believing something because one wants it to be true.

Edited by Wilhelm
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41 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I had thought the White Moon

yes thats  true, one of the moon's attributes is radiating the light

44 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

So as you've experienced light through your five senses, but you've not experienced telepathy - is this how you've determined what constitutes reality?  Or have you made determinations in the negative i.e. I have not seen any empirical evidence for telepathy therefore it does not exist.

it is the both of these arguments plus the logical reasoning as to why telepathy cannot exist in our reality

47 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Because at some point in these arts you would've had to grapple with concepts for which empirical evidence does not exist such as immortal life,

for the immortality, as for any other concept i do not need empirical evidence to know if it  exists or not.  All i need is   my own subjective feeling that immortality is possible personally for me. And indeed there is such a goalpost in the process, it is called 'the body still  on the earth, the soul is already in heaven'.

54 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Btw it looks like we're the ones who are off topic now

we can always move to my PPD ;)

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There is a group of people who are curious about light, but they don't want to practice, they just want to guess.

This group of people would rather spend thirty years guessing what light is than spend one hundred days practicing light.

I sometimes wonder, what kind of obsession caused this group of people to behave like this?

 

有一群人,對光好奇,但是卻不願意去練,只願意猜。

這群人寧願花三十年去猜測什麼是光,卻不願意花一百天去練出光。

我有時候在想,到底是什麼樣的執念導致這群人有這樣的行為出現?

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

… All i need is  my own subjective feeling that immortality is possible personally for me. ...

 

I agree. :)

 

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

… determinations in the negative …

 

Sure, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". But (untill reaching their own subjective feeling) the sane person goes with what can be concluded "within a reasonable margin of error".

 

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5 minutes ago, awaken said:

There is a group of people who are curious about light, but they don't want to practice, they just want to guess.

This group of people would rather spend thirty years guessing what light is than spend one hundred days practicing light.

I sometimes wonder, what kind of obsession caused this group of people to behave like this?

Which group of people are you referring to?  As far as I can tell, the three people here who've talked about the light other than yourself are all active practitioners...

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2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Which group of people are you referring to?  As far as I can tell, the three people here who've talked about the light other than yourself are all active practitioners...

 

Which three people?

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Just now, awaken said:

Which three people?

Freeform, Shadow Self, and Taoist Texts have all talked about the light in the last two pages.  Technically I talked to them as well about it but I excluded myself from the group as I'm not currently practicing the light.

 

To my knowledge all of them are active and dedicated practitioners.

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2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Freeform, Shadow Self, and Taoist Texts have all talked about the light in the last two pages.  Technically I talked to them as well about it but I excluded myself from the group as I'm not currently practicing the light.

 

To my knowledge all of them are active and dedicated practitioners.

 

What kind of light did the three of them practice?

 

他們三個練到什麼樣的光?

 

Edited by awaken

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1 minute ago, awaken said:

 

What kind of light did the three of them practice?

 

他們三個練到什麼樣的光?

 

You'd have to ask them - although Shadow Self included the Chinese characters for one version of the light that was practiced, he and Freeform also alluded to several higher states.  I have no knowledge on the subject so will not comment

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Just now, Wilhelm said:

You'd have to ask them - although Shadow Self included the Chinese characters for one version of the light that was practiced, he and Freeform also alluded to several higher states.  I have no knowledge on the subject so will not comment

 

 

So you haven't practiced light? Are you purely curious?
Did you know that light has layers?

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47 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

we can always move to my PPD ;)

I made this damn thread and I intend to egotistically bend the Frank Yang gang to my subject of choice!  :lol:

Quote

it is the both of these arguments plus the logical reasoning as to why telepathy cannot exist in our reality

for the immortality, as for any other concept i do not need empirical evidence to know if it  exists or not.  All i need is   my own subjective feeling that immortality is possible personally for me. And indeed there is such a goalpost in the process, it is called 'the body still  on the earth, the soul is already in heaven'.

That's fair enough!  What do you think it was that caused you to apply a higher reasoning process to the concept of telepathy than you did to the concept of immortality?

Edited by Wilhelm
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Just now, awaken said:

So you haven't practiced light? Are you purely curious?
Did you know that light has layers?

Yeah that's what they were talking about, actually

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2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

You'd have to ask them - although Shadow Self included the Chinese characters for one version of the light that was practiced, he and Freeform also alluded to several higher states.  I have no knowledge on the subject so will not comment

 

This may involve translation.

Practice means achieved in Chinese

But does it mean the same thing in English?

You should know that visualization and realization are completely different, right?

 

這可能牽涉到翻譯了。

practice在中文的意思是達成了

但是在英文的意思是同樣的意思嗎?

你應該知道觀想和達成是完全不一樣的吧?

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Just now, awaken said:

This may involve translation.

Practice means achieved in Chinese

But does it mean the same thing in English?

You should know that visualization and realization are completely different, right?

Ah ok - in English practice can also mean the process that leads towards achievement, and it goes without saying that visualization and realization are completely different (at least to my way of thinking)

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1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

Ah ok - in English practice can also mean the process that leads towards achievement, and it goes without saying that visualization and realization are completely different (at least to my way of thinking)

 

 

 

So when you use the word practice, do you mean to visualize or achieve?

I must say that when I use the word practice, my Chinese meaning is to achieve.

 

所以你用practice這個字的意思是觀想還是達成?

我必須說當我使用practice這個字的時候,我的中文意思都是達成的意思。

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19 hours ago, Creation said:

These kinds of shifts, as far as I can tell, are also emphasized about in schools of Buddhism that emphasize sudden awakening - certain types of Chan/Zen, Mahamudra, and Dzogchen. 

 

A few issues: first, to focus on signposts as attainments, and to openly discuss and spread information around, does a great disservice. This is because whatever you want, your mind will try to manufacture and give you. As the mind becomes closer to the source, its ability to manifest various things become more powerful. Instead of an authentic experience, you are in danger of having a similar, but inauthentic state. This is one reason signs are not openly discussed. One can have many "signs" of realization but lack the fundamental transformation of authentic realization. 

 

The aim then becomes less of a Buddhist one, which is the elimination of suffering and the proliferation of buddha qualities, and more about some temporary arising event that arises due to conditions. According to the Buddha's teachings, if arises due to conditions, it is impermanent and will pass when conditions cease, it is a part of samsara (even if the end occurs at the end of a life or multiple lives). The goal is not the build a better samsara, but to end suffering. The ending of suffering is unconditioned. 

 

Now being borderless and/or losing a sense of self itself is a state that can be accessed multiple ways, including practice, drugs and mental breakdowns. It can be positive or negative, and occurs inside and outside of meditation communities. The same goes with many other states promoted as signs of awakening. Typically, the more aggressive, forceful, and directed methods result in negatives (see the Cheetah House for numerous examples). This is one reason why the traditional Buddhist criteria is set forth the way it is (i.e., negative states of greed, anger, and delusion decrease, and positive states of joy, equanimity, and wisdom increase).  

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, awaken said:

So when you use the word practice, do you mean to visualize or achieve?

I must say that when I use the word practice, my Chinese meaning is to achieve.

 

所以你用practice這個字的意思是觀想還是達成?

我必須說當我使用practice這個字的時候,我的中文意思都是達成的意思。

I see.  To me it means neither.  Another word we sometimes use for practice is training.  In English you practice something so that you might achieve something - but the former is the activity and the latter is the result

 

So to clarify a previous point they have all said they achieved (or attained, accomplished) the light to varying degrees.

Edited by Wilhelm

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2 hours ago, refugeindharma said:

 

Would be curious to hear from people what they think of the Insight Meditation Society (IMS) as I feel these guys also have a big "market or mind share" when it comes to Buddhism/meditation in the West, but I haven't spent much time on what they teach or followed their teachers...

 

 

Years ago I did a long meditation retreat there -- sitting, walking, dharma talks in the evening.  I'm not one to comment on the subject of this thread -- a bit beyond me -- but the retreat experience itself was intense, good but not easy.  Nice people, serious practice.

 

I wasn't a good Buddhist.  After a month or so of silence and vegetarian food I'd had enough and walked into town for pizza.  In hindsight, probably a mistake.

Edited by liminal_luke
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1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

I see.  To me it means neither.  Another word we sometimes use for practice is training.  In English you practice something so that you might achieve something - but the former is the activity and the latter is the result

 

So when you said they were practicing light, you didn't know if they were producing light, did you?

 

所以你剛才說他們在練習光的意思是,你不清楚他們有沒有產生光,是吧?
 

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9 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

What do you think it was that caused you to apply a higher reasoning process to the concept of telepathy than you did to the concept of immortality?

I believe my reasoning process to be the same for the both: 

1. any thing exists for me if it passes one test of being experienced by me with my  6 organs of senses (the 5 plus the mind).

2. And a thing does not exist if it does not pass two tests: A] it is not being experienced as above . B] it cannot exist according to my logical judgment

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The lights I talk about are all achieved by me, not by me practicing some methods to obtain these lights.

I don't use any method for that.

Two of the three you mentioned were blocked by me.

I forgot the reason for blocking the two of them, and I may feel that I have nothing to say to them.

So I don't know what the two of them said, I just know that you talked about white light.

There are many kinds of white light, not just one.

When the third eye is first activated, there will be a flash of white light like lightning, which is the first type.

After the third eye is activated, it will produce a white black liver light, which is the second type.

The white black liver can be controlled by acquired consciousness and form a point. Practitioners of the transfer method often mistake this white light for the golden elixir. And cooperate with MCO operation to control this white light.

When the third eye is more mature, it will produce colorful black liver light.

  Carrying method practitioners often focus their consciousness on the lower abdomen, so they will produce an orange-yellow black liver light. Some of them will mistake this for golden pills, and they will also use acquired consciousness to cooperate with MCO.

When it reaches the desire realm, it will also produce white light, very dazzling light, which belongs to the third type of white light.

At the second stage of Yangsheng, the white light of rabbit marrow will also be produced, a whole area of white light, which belongs to the fourth type of white light.

After the samadhi is relatively mature, it will also produce the white light of mature rabbit marrow, a round and motionless white light, similar to a full moon, which belongs to the fifth type of white light.

At the third stage of yangsheng, a large circular white light will be produced, which is the real full moon, which belongs to the sixth type of white light.

At the stage of the immortal real person produced by the three stages of yangsheng, it will produce white light like a huge star. This is a mature golden elixir, which belongs to the seventh kind of white light.

There are many types of white light, and unless you experience them all yourself, it's impossible to figure out what's going on.

Sorry, I missed a white light.

A white dot and a black dot appear alternately, usually before the opening of the mind orifice.

There are also two unnamed white lights. One is that before the black liver light appears, there will be a lot of dot-like lights. The time will not be very long, usually disappearing in a few seconds. This is what happens when the third eye is first activated.


The other is bad-qi light, a lot of dot-shaped white light like measles.

There are too many kinds of white light.

Usually, people with a poor level will only have one type, which is the white light of the primary black liver light.

People who practice MCO are especially prone to this kind of white light, and others are not easy to appear, mainly because the practice of MCO will create obstacles to evolution.

 

我講到的光,都是我達成的,而不是我用一些方法在練習為了取得這些光。

我不使用任何方法的。

你提到的三人中的兩人被我屏蔽了。

屏蔽他們兩個人的原因我忘了,可能覺得跟他們兩個沒什麼好說的。

所以他們兩個說了什麼我不知道,我只知道你們談到白光。

白光有很多種,不是只有一種。

最初開始啟動第三眼的時候,會閃過如同閃電般的白光,那是第一種。

第三眼啟動之後,會產生白色的烏肝光,那是第二種。

白色的烏肝可以被後天意識控制,形成一個點,搬運法練習者經常將此白光誤認為金丹。並且配合MCO運行加以控制此白光。

當第三眼比較純熟之後,就會產生彩色的烏肝光。

 搬運法練習者因為經常將意識焦點集中在下腹部,因此會產生橘黃色的烏肝光,他們有些人也會將此誤認為金丹,同樣也會使用後天意識配合MCO。

到了欲界的時候,也會產生白色的光,非常刺眼的光芒,屬於第三種白光。

到了陽生第二階段的時候,也會產生兔髓的白光,一整片的白光,這屬於第四種白光。

到了三摩地比較成熟之後,也會產生成熟兔髓的白光,圓形不動的白光,類似圓月,這屬於第五種白光。

到了陽生三階段,會產生大型圓形白光,這才是真正的圓月,這屬於第六種白光。

到了陽生三階段所產生的不朽的真人階段,會產生如同巨大恆星一樣的白光,這是成熟的金丹,屬於第七種白光。

白光有很多種,除非你自己經歷過所有的白光,否則不可能搞得清楚怎麼回事。

抱歉,我漏掉一種白光。

一個白點和黑點交錯出現,通常出現在心竅將要打開之前。

另外還有兩種沒有名稱的白光,一種是出現烏肝光之前,會有一大堆點狀的光,時間不會很長,通常幾秒鐘就不見了。這是第三眼剛啟動時會出現的。


另外一種是屬於壞氣的光,一大堆如同長麻疹一樣的點狀白光。

白光有太多種了。

通常程度差的人,只會出現一種,也就是初級烏肝光的白光。

練MCO的人特別容易出現這種白光,其他的就不容易出現了,主要是因為MCO的練法會產生演化的障礙。


Because the MCO training method uses the acquired consciousness, it can only produce the acquired light like the black liver light, and cannot produce the innate light.

 

因為MCO的練法使用後天意識,因此只能產生像烏肝光這種後天可運用的光,無法產生先天的光。

 

Although it is the same white light, there are acquired ones and innate ones, not to say that all white lights are the same, and the difference is very huge.

 

雖然是同樣的白光,但是有後天,也有先天的,不是說只要是白光都是一樣的,其中差異非常的巨大。

 

Every kind of white light has its own time to appear. These timings are evolutionary timings.

For example, the light of black liver belongs to the opportunity of acquired consciousness.

Rabbit marrow light belongs to the timing of yin.

Rabbit marrow round light belongs to the opportunity when there is yang in yin.

The whole piece of rabbit marrow belongs to the timing of the first stage of Yangsheng.

The great full moon belongs to the timing of the third stage of yang birth.

 

每一種白光有他出現的時機。這些時機屬於演化上的時機。

例如烏肝光屬於後天意識存在的時機。

兔髓光屬於陰的時機。

兔髓圓光屬於陰中有陽的時機。

兔髓整片光屬於陽生第一階段的時機。

大圓月屬於第三階段陽生的時機。

 

The innate part cannot be exercised by any method, it can only be produced naturally through evolution.

 


屬於先天的部分是沒辦法使用任何方法去鍛鍊出來的,只能靠演化自然產生。

 

Therefore, as long as it is the white light produced by using the method, there is only one kind, which is the black liver light.

 

因此只要是使用方法所練出來的白光,只有一種,就是烏肝光。

 

Don’t think that the presence of white light means that the level is very high.

According to many people I have asked, about one-third to one-fourth of them can see black liver light without any exercise in their teenage years.

I hope you will not be misled into thinking that achieving white light is a very high level.

 

你們不要認為有白光就是程度很高。

根據我問過許多人,大約有三分之一到四分之一的人,在青少年時期,不需要任何鍛鍊,就可以看見烏肝光。

希望各位不要被誤導,以為達成白光就是程度很高。

 

If you want to know all kinds of white light, there is only one way, which is to achieve the ability of evolution.

And evolution has no method.

Any artificial method will create an evolutionary barrier.

 

你們如果想知道各種白光,只有一條路,就是達到演化的能力。

而演化是沒有方法的。

任何後天人為的方法都會造成演化的障礙。
 

Edited by awaken
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27 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I believe my reasoning process to be the same for the both: 

1. any thing exists for me if it passes one test of being experienced by me with my  6 organs of senses (the 5 plus the mind).

2. And a thing does not exist if it does not pass two tests: A] it is not being experienced as above . B] it cannot exist according to my logical judgment

Ah - that make sense.  Thanks for going into details!  I couldn't put my finger on how we had used the same process to come to separate possibilities - but once subjectivity gets added to the mix (in our individualized application of logical reasoning) then yeah of course we'll probably see many things differently 

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43 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

Thanks for going into so much detail.  Yes I believe this is the same as what was being talked about already in this thread - the lights that were achieved by the three people I had mentioned.

 

And I'm sorry to hear about those poor carrying method and transfer method practitioners.  I'm glad there's no one here claiming to use those methods!

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