The 1100 ton Unfinished Obelisk

[ralis]

13 hours ago, Klinsly said:

Well I'm certainly no expert, nor said anything about trowel marks, or know what that means, I actually missed most of the converstation. Just sharing some cool photos and new ideas.  There were tons of stones with something that sort of  resembles a handle, a quick google image search will show these like   and some that were hollow inside  with a channel in a museum showing some were interlocked together.

 

 I'm just fascinated by it. The more you research it, people have no idea how old it all is or how long ago they were built. Why would a lost art be out of the question from a time when we weren't so disconnected from direct wisdom from the spiritual world.  I think a chemical reaction that can soften granite is being  rather conservative in that realm of possibility. But also She was an Archeologist/tour guide in the area and is making a movie about the idea that's mostly done. I know how funny it sounds with what I originally said haha. That's why I was there helping out. The softening I think is  more the idea that it just softens the surface you put it on so you can smooth or shape it. Some bird there is known for digging nests in rock faces by using some plant mixed with it's saliva.

 

Handles?  Granite has little nubs or protrusions that are a result of volcanism, weathering, pressure and mostly composed of Si02.

 

Isn't it time to understand myth for what it is?

 

 

[ralis]

Granite is amenable to fracturing, cutting and smoothing. 

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0012821X91902349

[silent thunder]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

uneducated ignorance

I tend to lean toward wilfull ignorance, since it is often maintained in the face of evidence that supports a shift in view which is rarely accepted.

 

We love our stories and we tend to stick to em.

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Lairg said:

For example the original gods of Egypt were 7 male-female pairs that were believed to be "without father and without mother"  presumably because they were born outside the planet.

 

You will recall the expression "without father and without mother" from St Paul's description of Melchizedek

 

Nah .     He said , and I'll quote it again ;

 

multiple  groups of  7 sages  whose stories show up at the begging of almost all  major cultures in our modern history.

 

You cited ONE culture from ancient history .

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I tend to lean toward wilfull ignorance, since it is often maintained in the face of evidence that supports a shift in view which is rarely accepted.

 

We love our stories and we tend to stick to em.

 

I agree partially but I must also disagree ; look at the first post .... how it is thought that presentation 'puts others in their place ' .

 

Its virtually 'Dunner -Krugerism' !       IF  you know anything about this subject .     And to think that presentation ( OP vid ) is good and valid, and one is unable ( or yes, unwilling as well perhaps) to see all the flaws and gaps in logic all through it  .

 

I mean just think for a moment  on one aspect ;   flabby white tourists with office jobs go there , try using a pounder for 3 minutes ... and then declare it would have been too hard work for an ancient stoneworker !   

 

Thats the sort of 'evidence' that video puts up .

 

 

[Nungali]

One thing  moderns dont realise is how ancients viewed / used time .

 

Why would anyone , virtually destroy their body and health by pounding rocks all day ?  and the next day .... and the next ....

 

Its a similar issue to ancient travel ; some people travelled  vast differences - by simply walking there , sometimes it might have taken 15 years .  Modern people gawp at this , and one person in particular expressed  incredulous belief at it (from a modern western perspective )  in that ;   " Why would anyone want to waste 15 years of their life simply walking from one place to another ? I prefer modern times ... just hop on a plane . "

 

My answer was ; " That ancient person would probably ask you ; ' Why would anyone  want to waste 15  - 35 years of THEIR life working in an office all day  ? !  ' . "

[Lairg]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

Why would anyone , virtually destroy their body and health by pounding rocks all day ?

 

As you will have noticed the quarry used for the Great Pyramid of Giza is only just big enough to supply the volume of material.

 

When cutting blocks, there is 50% wastage.  Therefore the quarry is not nearly big enough.  What then was the process of cutting blocks with no wastage?

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, Lairg said:

 

As you will have noticed the quarry used for the Great Pyramid of Giza is only just big enough to supply the volume of material.

 

No, I will not have noticed that at all !

 

Now we encounter 'the logic of discussion'  . On the surface  , this ^ appears to be good , except it doesnt actually mean anything .

 

Which of 'the quarries ' are you talking about ?   Or are you suggesting all the stone in the GP came from  ONE quarry ?

 

is this a  Graham Handcock 'fact' again ?

 

GP stone was quarried from  Giza, Aswan, Luxor, Fayoum Depression and other sites .

 

For your 'information' to be valid,  it would have to do some fancy calculating 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Lairg said:

 

When cutting blocks, there is 50% wastage.  Therefore the quarry is not nearly big enough.  What then was the process of cutting blocks with no wastage?

 

There is ?   I wonder how you got this 50% figure ?   Also, do you realise the GP is actually built on a mound ? That reduces the amount of blocks apparently needed .   Again you reference 'the  quarry', so this point is  immaterial .  Which makes the next question immaterial as well .

 

Rubble and waste was used to make ramps, causeways , 'roads' to move  materials along , etc .

[ralis]

17 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

As you will have noticed the quarry used for the Great Pyramid of Giza is only just big enough to supply the volume of material.

 

When cutting blocks, there is 50% wastage.  Therefore the quarry is not nearly big enough.  What then was the process of cutting blocks with no wastage?

 

 

Where are the data for 50% waste? In my company we have built a lot of flagstone courtyards, stone walls and other masonry projects. Perhaps 10% waste at the most. Hammers and carbide tipped chisels.

 

[ralis]

6 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

No, I will not have noticed that at all !

 

Now we encounter 'the logic of discussion'  . On the surface  , this ^ appears to be good , except it doesnt actually mean anything .

 

Which of 'the quarries ' are you talking about ?   Or are you suggesting all the stone in the GP came from  ONE quarry ?

 

is this a  Graham Handcock 'fact' again ?

 

GP stone was quarried from  Giza, Aswan, Luxor, Fayoum Depression and other sites .

 

For your 'information' to be valid,  it would have to do some fancy calculating 

 

 

 

 

There is ?   I wonder how you got this 50% figure ?   Also, do you realise the GP is actually built on a mound ? That reduces the amount of blocks apparently needed .   Again you reference 'the  quarry', so this point is  immaterial .  Which makes the next question immaterial as well .

 

Rubble and waste was used to make ramps, causeways , 'roads' to move  materials along , etc .

 

I would venture to guess that with primitive tools there would be waste, but mostly in the form of chips and dust depending on the type of stone used. There are claims of grinders being used in the GP construction. Allegedly there are grinder marks or it could be trowel marks.  

 

 

[Nungali]

5 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

 

Where are the data for 50% waste? In my company we have built a lot of flagstone courtyards, stone walls and other masonry projects. Perhaps 10% waste at the most. Hammers and carbide tipped chisels.

 

 

 

 

 

Forget carbide tips .... Even with simple knapping, the  waste ( chips ) can be used in a wall  (galleting )   , although time consuming, requires mastery and expensive - it was used to show off your money actually

 

Flint wall  with galleting

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

6 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

I would venture to guess that with primitive tools there would be waste, but mostly in the form of chips and dust depending on the type of stone used. There are claims of grinders being used in the GP construction. Allegedly there are grinder marks or it could be trowel marks.  

 

 

 

In that OP video  ... which 'debunks' our opinion    they talk about such a machine  that left scoop marks  .   sorta like a big articulated belt sander  ... 'ceptin' that the gouges are convex .... so a belt sander that goes around corners with a convex base plate    ,

 

But then they say , themselves , that this wouldnt work  and their solution is ;  It must have been some type of machine designed  to leaves the marks behind that we see  left behind .

 

- and some people cant seem to see what is wrong with that ! 

 

[ralis]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

In that OP video  ... which 'debunks' our opinion    they talk about such a machine  that left scoop marks  .   sorta like a big articulated belt sander  ... 'ceptin' that the gouges are convex .... so a belt sander that goes around corners with a convex base plate    ,

 

But then they say , themselves , that this wouldnt work  and their solution is ;  It must have been some type of machine designed  to leaves the marks behind that we see  left behind .

 

- and some people cant seem to see what is wrong with that ! 

 

 

Belt sander?  

[ralis]

Grinder marks. I keep trying to find where the grinders were plugged in, but so far no luck.

 

[Lairg]

I have read that the granite sarcophagus in the King's Chamber was drilled with wide drills that left copper behind and progressed through the granite at about 1000 times the speed of our best drills.

 

For copper to cut granite either the copper was very hard (not reported about the remaining drill fragments) or the granite was very soft at that time.

 

Similarly for grinder marks.  

 

I have read that there is a deep trench next to one of the pyramids - just the right size for a circular saw of the diameter of some of the cuts.

 

https://au1lib.org/book/3326276/1783ff

[ralis]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

I have read that the granite sarcophagus in the King's Chamber was drilled with wide drills that left copper behind and progressed through the granite at about 1000 times the speed of our best drills.

 

For copper to cut granite either the copper was very hard (not reported about the remaining drill fragments) or the granite was very soft at that time.

 

Similarly for grinder marks.  

 

I have read that there is a deep trench next to one of the pyramids - just the right size for a circular saw of the diameter of some of the cuts.

 

https://au1lib.org/book/3326276/1783ff

 

Copper drill bits? No way would copper hold up!! Copper is very malleable, and is easily shaped with heat and force. 

 

You read it and therefor it is absolutely true?

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

I have read that the granite sarcophagus in the King's Chamber was drilled with wide drills that left copper behind and progressed through the granite at about 1000 times the speed of our best drills.

 

sigh ... anyone who knows anything about   the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber  knows it has no  wide  drill  holes , nor holes of any type in it .

 

 

When will you stop giving blind credence to anything  'you have heard '

 

or are you just having some fun here  ?

 

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

For copper to cut granite either the copper was very hard (not reported about the remaining drill fragments) or the granite was very soft at that time.

 

... and you dont know anything about this process.   You can drill through granite  with a wood drill, IF you know the simple and not at all mysterious technique  .... I watched a Maori cut a fish hook out of hard jade with a cotton thread .

 

Its very obvious and logical solution  ......   for some ... and people have been doing it for 1000s and 1000s of years .

 

 

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Similarly for grinder marks.  

 

I have read that there is a deep trench next to one of the pyramids - just the right size for a circular saw of the diameter of some of the cuts.

 

https://au1lib.org/book/3326276/1783ff

 

 

I have heard there is an anti gravity machine STILL THERE  that lifted all the blocks into place  ...

 

... heard it on some stupid youtube , that is .

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, ralis said:

 

Copper drill bits? No way would copper hold up!! Copper is very malleable, and is easily shaped with heat and force. 

 

You read it and therefor it is absolutely true?

 

 

 

 

The copper tip on the drill isnt the cutting surface   ... same as with the tube drills to cut out cylinders  .

 

And the cotton doesnt actually cut through the jade .

 

 

Hint  ( regarding modern usage ) ;  corundum

 

bigger hint  :   ' Impure corundum ' 

 

- a similar technique was used in Sth Americas , using a ROPE to cut stone .

 

 

[Apech]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:50 AM, Lairg said:

For example the original gods of Egypt were 7 male-female pairs that were believed to be "without father and without mother"  presumably because they were born outside the planet.

 

You will recall the expression "without father and without mother" from St Paul's description of Melchizedek

 

....delete

Edited April 29, 2022 by Apech

[Apech]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

The copper tip on the drill isnt the cutting surface   ... same as with the tube drills to cut out cylinders  .

 

And the cotton doesnt actually cut through the jade .

 

 

Hint  ( regarding modern usage ) ;  corundum

 

bigger hint  :   ' Impure corundum ' 

 

- a similar technique was used in Sth Americas , using a ROPE to cut stone .

 

 

 

Generally speaking I take the view that attributing the skills people had in those days to work stone to mechanical devices and so on just devalues them.  I think we can take it as given that cultures that worked stone over generations developed skills that are now forgotten and seem miraculous - there is no need to think in terms of modern tools just because we can't explain everything they did.

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Generally speaking I take the view that attributing the skills people had in those days to work stone to mechanical devices and so on just devalues them.  I think we can take it as given that cultures that worked stone over generations developed skills that are now forgotten and seem miraculous - there is no need to think in terms of modern tools just because we can't explain everything they did.

 

They may not have had our modern type of tools, but they did have some kind of technology no less advanced - if indeed not more so.

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Michael Sternbach

[ralis]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Generally speaking I take the view that attributing the skills people had in those days to work stone to mechanical devices and so on just devalues them.  I think we can take it as given that cultures that worked stone over generations developed skills that are now forgotten and seem miraculous - there is no need to think in terms of modern tools just because we can't explain everything they did.

I can appreciate whatever masonry skills ancient people developed. However, having been involved with extensive stone masonry work myself,  (300 tons over a 10 year period), all the mystical rants about copper drill bits, liquid that softens stone and whatever nonsense some believe, it comes down to hard work, no matter what period in history one is talking about. 
 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by ralis

[Lairg]

"'That's it!' said the chacarero. That's what's eaten your spurs away! That's the stuff the Incas used for shaping stones. The juice will soften rock up till it's like paste. You must show me where you found the plants.' "

 

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/waterstone.html

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Generally speaking I take the view that attributing the skills people had in those days to work stone to mechanical devices and so on just devalues them.  I think we can take it as given that cultures that worked stone over generations developed skills that are now forgotten and seem miraculous - there is no need to think in terms of modern tools just because we can't explain everything they did.

 

Some just cant accept that.  And not all the skills are  forgotten , some still use them - on a smaller scale .  It can seem miraculous though .... I sat there rather amazed watching that Maori fellow cut stone with cotton thread .... at first , it did seem miraculous  .... then  I watched closely and realised what he was actually doing  ....

 

Besides ....  Egyptology would not not be as fascinating a subject if we knew how they did everything .  

 

 

 

-  I can see    the 'machining crew' really isnt into using their brains to figure out one of the techniques I hinted at above .  I should acknowledge the modern world , I realise and remove the brain from the equation and instead 'explain' things by .....

 

 

<sigh >  posting a youtube

 

 

 

 

 

Oh look , we actually knew about this all along !

 

 

 

- they even got a hieroglyph for it !

 

 

 

 

And just to add another  point of contemplation  (if it can be contemplated without a youtube )

 

We also have to consider their work in statuary

 

 

- solid diorite ... and that isnt soft at all .   A belt sander ? A stone softener ?

 

The tradition in statuary went through to the Greeks .... are we imagining the  coming of the iron age  changed everything and made us loose technology .

 

Modern  stone cutting tools that we  use now dont use iron ..... it took some time to develop good steel  and 'carbide / tungsten  / etc 'tips' came much later . Before that, statuary traditions continued along without a break .

[Nungali]

35 minutes ago, Lairg said:

"'That's it!' said the chacarero. That's what's eaten your spurs away! That's the stuff the Incas used for shaping stones. The juice will soften rock up till it's like paste. You must show me where you found the plants.' "

 

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/waterstone.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

Enjoy .