What exactly is stored in the LDT?

[almaxy]

Hey guys, I have a question, what exactly is store in the LDT?

[小梦想]

The simplest explanation, without all the jargon is, you are storing a voltage potential. Potential energy to be used for health or higher cultivation. 

 

The scholars will soon come and make this very complicated, but it's truly simple. It's an energy source that can be used by every single cell, organ and system in your body. It's simply an excess of the energy that normally courses through your body in tiny amounts, stored in large amounts. Most people refer to this as qi (chi).

 

This energy can be stored at different levels of refinement depending on your cultivation level and development of your MCO, which sadly means, the usage/benefit is dependant on the level of refinement. Coarse, dense qi barely benefits the person who has it and is very difficult to move or use, highly refined qi takes on the quality of plasma, resulting in a dense qi field that benefits those around you just because they are in close proximity to you and is required for higher level cultivation. 

Most people barely scratch the surface of dantian/qi development though and by doing this, shoot themselves squarely in the foot for any higher cultivation.

 

Hope this answer is helpful.

Edited February 21, 2022 by 小梦想

[almaxy]

That was very helpful man, thanks a lot!!!

 

But I want to continue this conversation with another 2 questions and in the end I have a very specific question hehehe, and everyone is welcomed to join this topic, let's share knowledge 

 

Now I will make 2 questions to speed up this post:

 

       1- This Jing accumulated can be transformed to Qi, right? And If I transform Jing to Qi, this means I will have less Jing because I have transformed part of it to Qi through a practice that does this process of convertion, correct?

 

       2- Jing is accumulated by a correct diet, celibacy, not overworking or overtraining, proper sleep and avoiding drugs and alcohol, but are there specific techniques to speed up this process, techniques to generate jing?

 

I know these may be dumb questions but I need to understand the basics.

Thanks in advance!

[Lairg]

It may be of use to consider which intelligences are involved and their relationships to the human

[小梦想]

They are not dumb questions at all. Masters of old used metaphors to explain the process, used terminology to explain phenomena that we now have normal words for. The issue comes in when those who haven't cultivated properly misinterpret these explanations to be something more than what they really are.

 

1. Jing refers to the substances required to generate qi, qi is energy. Our bodies produce energy for our cells every single day. There is very little difference in the requirement for generating qi and generating ATP as far as resources are concerned. You don't drain your jing through cultivation any more than you would by exercising. This also means that exercising (some types better than others) can increase your ability to regulate jing. Fitness and correct diet come into play.

 

2. Jing is the substances required to generate energy, whether it be qi or ATP. So, your body naturally generates jing every single day all on it's own.  The healthier you are, the better quality life you live, the better your body functions, the more efficiently it converts food into jing which is then used to generate qi. This happens every single day in your body regardless of meditation. Cultivation just uses this natural process to accumulate energy in a slightly different way and a slightly different location.

 

Think of a runner just starting out vs a person who has been running for a year. The person just starting will have a significantly less efficient body and tire much quicker compared to the person running a while already. The new runners ability to replenish the jing used for energy production is not efficient. His lungs will burn because they aren't used to running at such a capacity, his sides will get crapms, his legs will run out of strength, his body will get exhausted quickly. be careful though, over exercising without proper rest is just as damaging as not exercising, a balance must be found and maintained.

 

An unhealthy, overweight, take away eating daily drinker, smoker and porn addict will never be a good runner or have an efficient body for running and in turn for cultivation. First they must fix their health, diet, habits to ensure their body functions at a better capacity. Neigong/neidan/cultivation is the exact same thing. The healthier your body, the quicker it will adapt to this new "stress" and become more efficient at regulating "jing".

 

These things are way simpler than they are made out to be online and in books. Sadly, you take away some of the magical nature of it too when you explain it in this way. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by 小梦想

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, almaxy said:

That was very helpful man, thanks a lot!!!

 

But I want to continue this conversation with another 2 questions and in the end I have a very specific question hehehe, and everyone is welcomed to join this topic, let's share knowledge 

 

Now I will make 2 questions to speed up this post:

 

       1- This Jing accumulated can be transformed to Qi, right? And If I transform Jing to Qi, this means I will have less Jing because I have transformed part of it to Qi through a practice that does this process of convertion, correct?

 

       2- Jing is accumulated by a correct diet, celibacy, not overworking or overtraining, proper sleep and avoiding drugs and alcohol, but are there specific techniques to speed up this process, techniques to generate jing?

 

I know these may be dumb questions but I need to understand the basics.

Thanks in advance!

 

Would question the notion about celibacy..

 

Simple reason being that it  is desire that causes the movement of Jing and can lead to it being burned up...For example...being celibate is of little to no use whatsoever if you mind is plagued by thoughts and desire for sex, and you are constantly getting erections.

 

Getting the desires under control is where a lot of people fall down

 

小梦想 made a really vital point above as well...habits can be extremely detrimental to the jing.

[Indiken]

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

It may be of use to consider which intelligences are involved and their relationships to the human

 

Hello,

 

the use of word "intelligences" does not make sense to me,

 

could you explain what is meant by word "intelligences" in this sentence ?

[Lairg]

37 minutes ago, Indiken said:

could you explain what is meant by word "intelligences" in this sentence ?

 

When the human baby learns to walk it does so without using the mind.  It is another intelligence that operates the physical body energies for balance, digestion, blood pressure, healing, eye focus, swimming  ...

 

If that intelligence is traumatized the human is often accident prone, or jumpy, or has low energy, or cannot sleep easily, or uneasy with intimacy, etc.

 

The intelligence that operates the physical body is anchored in the Dan Tien.   

 

In my case it remembers some past lives.  When young I used to faint whenever a needle was pushed into me.

 

Being annoyed at physical failures/deficiencies may exacerbate the problems.

 

In most humans that intelligence is a lesser deva or nature spirit.   In some cases, such as some autism cases, the nature spirit departs leaving only an elemental with low functionality.

 

 

 

https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Letters_on_Occult_Meditation/LqzpH3MIy6IC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=lesser+deva&pg=PT136&printsec=frontcover

Edited February 22, 2022 by Lairg

[freeform]

9 hours ago, almaxy said:

1- This Jing accumulated can be transformed to Qi, right? And If I transform Jing to Qi, this means I will have less Jing because I have transformed part of it to Qi through a practice that does this process of convertion, correct?

Jing isn’t converted into qi in this way.

 

A higher level of Jing as well as a better quality of Jing and the consolidation of Jing supports the production of qi.

 

Different traditions use different means to produce qi. 
 

Some produce it in the tissues of the body. Similar to the ATP description above. For this process the Jing and the Dantien have to have certain properties.

 

Some produce it ‘alchemically’ using the Dantien in a very different way - almost like a power reactor. For this the Dantien is built differently and the Jing has to be refined differently.

 

Some traditions use both methods.
 

But the idea that Jing is a substance that is converted into another substance is not quite right. It’s a little more nuanced than that. You need full Jing, but it is not ‘lost’ in the way that you think as a result of the conversion process.

 

[小梦想]

32 minutes ago, freeform said:

Some produce it in the tissues of the body. Similar to the ATP description above. For this process the Jing and the Dantien have to have certain properties.

 

Some produce it ‘alchemically’ using the Dantien in a very different way - almost like a power reactor. For this the Dantien is built differently and the Jing has to be refined differently.

 

You attempt to claim what I do isn't the alchemical method, where I stand firmly that it is. But hey, fantasy sells, people want cultivation to be magical, mysterious, unknowing. 

This unfortunately allows random methods, random ofset schools to be able to say what they do is valid too, regardless of the lack of reasonable and expected abilities that should develop naturally as a result of correct practice.

 

Worse still it allows people to get away with pretending they know what they are talking about when they have no actual cultivation behind them. Just need to study neidan theory and create their online persona. 

 

Enjoy the conversation, I'll be taking my leave from it now.

 

 

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

You attempt to claim what I do isn't the alchemical method, where I stand firmly that it is.

Is that what you took from my post?
 

I don’t know what you do exactly - so  I’m in no position to claim anything about your practice.
 

You have no reason to defend it at all. I enjoyed reading your perspective.

 

16 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

fantasy sells, people want cultivation to be magical, mysterious, unknowing.

I have nothing to sell - and things only seem magical and mysterious until they become obvious and straightforward through experience - but they remain stubbornly difficult to explain.

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Sorry for the complete noob question but does ATP means adenosine triphosphate?  

 

Is this info below about it correct?

Quote

Purinergic signaling is a process by which cells in our body secrete nucleotides, like adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and adenosine.  ATP and adenosine are complex organic chemicals that drive many processes at a cellular level in the body.  The process involves activation of receptors in a cell or nearby cells, regulating cellular functions.  

 

When ATP and adenosine are released, it mostly happens extracellularly by a variety of cell-surface-located enzymes.  The system consists of transporters, enzymes and receptors responsible for synthesis, release, action, and extracellular inactivation of primarily ATP and adenosine.  

 

When ATP and adenosine are released they occupy specific receptors on nerve endings and transmit signals to the brain and nervous system, and on to the brain stem and hypothalamus.  The brain stem and hypothalamus contain neurons that control autonomic functions, including cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, respiratory, urinogenital and musculoskeletal activity. 

 

ATP and adenosine have been referred to as the Yin and Yang in immune responses.

 

https://www.tcm.ac/2019/01/23/atp-adenosine-and-acupuncture/?v=88588bacf0da

 

[freeform]

58 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Sorry for the complete noob question but does ATP means adenosine triphosphate?  

 

Is this info below about it correct?

 

Sort of… I’d be careful saying that some internal process equals some physiological mechanism.

 

Qi isn’t ATP… but there’s definitely crossover.

 

I would simply say that ATP is the energy or fuel that powers various physiological processes. This is one aspect of Qi for sure - but not everything.

[almaxy]

On 22/02/2022 at 9:51 AM, freeform said:

But the idea that Jing is a substance that is converted into another substance is not quite right. It’s a little more nuanced than that. You need full Jing, but it is not ‘lost’ in the way that you think as a result of the conversion process.

 

 

Hmmm interesting, this still a concept hard to grasp for me, but I'm getting it, I just need time for it to make more sense, I really tought that using Jing to turn into Qi would consume that Jing. In example: I was told that Zhan Zhuang is a great way to generate Qi, but I tought that If I did ZZ I would lose Jing to turn a part of it into Qi.

 

 

 

On 22/02/2022 at 4:29 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

Would question the notion about celibacy..

 

Simple reason being that it  is desire that causes the movement of Jing and can lead to it being burned up...For example...being celibate is of little to no use whatsoever if you mind is plagued by thoughts and desire for sex, and you are constantly getting erections.

 

Getting the desires under control is where a lot of people fall down

 

小梦想 made a really vital point above as well...habits can be extremely detrimental to the jing.

 

There comes my next question and I can relate it to your comment, so now I'm trying to understand something more about Jing formation:

 

1 - I would like to know if people with bad habits produce a low quality jing or they produce less Jing than a person with healthy habits, the difference is in quantity, quality or in both?

 

2- And I'm curious about what you guys think about COLD SHOWERS, does it consumes Jing and should be avoided?

[Shadow_self]

6 minutes ago, almaxy said:

There comes my next question and I can relate it to your comment, so now I'm trying to understand something more about Jing formation:

 

1 - I would like to know if people with bad habits produce a low quality jing or they produce less Jing than a person with healthy habits, the difference is in quantity, quality or in both?

 

2- And I'm curious about what you guys think about COLD SHOWERS, does it consumes Jing and should be avoided?

 

1. You should definitely direct that question to someone more knowledgeable than me to get a more comprehensive answer. I think @freeform would be able to elaborate further than I can. Jing is really complex...Far more complex than what most people realise. The machinations of it, at the deeper levels are way above my paygrade  

 

What I do know is habits can either directly or indirectly impact the jing. So for example, the things we mentioned..diet, sleep, lack of movement. But there are other ways too....

 

Consider the The five Spirits.

 

The five spirits are : the spirits (Shen) linked to the heart, the Hun linked to the liver, the Po linked to the lung, the intent (yi) linked to the spleen and the will (zhi) linked to the kidneys. Habits (regardless of whether they are perceived as good or bad) end up taxing the zhi....because habits basically relate to a lack of will ( we don't choose to do so). This in turn then impacts the Jing also, which is linked to the kidneys.

 

Lets take two examples. Firstly a person who, when they become aroused must relieve themselves. So here theres a habit, and an activity which depletes the Jing. It is very taxing

 

Now here's a more subtle one...

 

Consider a person who has good habits like exercising or healthy diet...Lets say something happens...the gym is closed or they cannot get this food they always eat. Next thing they start stressing out and desperately find a way to support their habit rather than accept the minute disruption that will mean little in the grand scheme...This type of compulsive habitual behaviour has an effect on the Jing in the latter way I mentioned. It is also bad.

 

If your Jing is consolidated to a high degree....you should not be driven by desires or habits. You would (or should) have control over things like choosing when to have sex and so forth...It basically puts you back in the drivers seat, where you are not led by desire

 

That's a very oversimplistic response...but like I mentioned...above my paygrade  

 

2. A good rule of thumb in Daoism is to avoid the cold  Yeah no, If you are talking about the Wim Hof stuff...staying away from that would be my personal advice. Not just the showers, all of it. 

 

It can mess with the kidneys (and by that same means, the JIng), and as you've probably gathered from the thread....that's not good

[almaxy]

Just now, Shadow_self said:

1. You should definitely direct that question to someone more knowledgeable than me to get a more comprehensive answer. I think @freeform would be able to elaborate further than I can.

Yea I'm actually asking everyone, I just quoted your post because you mentioned Jing and habits haha, BTW thanks a lot for your answer it was very helpful

 

About the cold stuff, thanks for the info, I read it somewhere(maybe it was here in the Bums) but I can't find that discussion again, but I had this impression ppl were saying to avoid cold.

 

 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

If your Jing is consolidated to a high degree....you should not be driven by desires or habits. You would (or should) have control over things like choosing when to have sex and so forth...It basically puts you back in the drivers seat, where you are not led by desire

Yeah you’re right.

 

I actually think ‘habitual patterns’ is a better way of saying it. It’s not habits like brushing teeth that’s the problem it’s ‘automatic’ behaviour.

 

It’s habitual, compulsive (often unconscious) action that’s a drain on Jing. For instance an extreme example of this is any sort of addiction. Including screen addiction, shopping addiction, gambling, gaming, even reading or exercise can be addictions - any compulsive habit.
 

It also applies to the micro habits that happen from moment to moment. You feel sad - you reach for food... You always try to impress anyone that’s a bit like your dad… you habitually reference your inner monologue… You keep scrolling for stimulation… (You do all sorts of compulsive stuff for mental stimulation! Most people get into cultivation for stimulation! 😄)

 

All the conscious and unconscious behaviours that make you act or react automatically through habit are all using up a little of your Jing… 

 

But this is more subtle stuff.

 

No point trying to work on this when you’re regularly having late nights… compulsive sexual stimulation… drinking… smoking… watching crap on screens all day. Build good habits first - then become an unuabituated, fully alive human later!  

[freeform]

5 hours ago, almaxy said:

COLD SHOWERS

I learned recently that tinnitus is a major issue for the Wim Hoff community. 
 

I was discussing Wim Hoff with someone - saying that everything he’s doing is exceptionally depleting… and that I’m surprised that people don’t have more issues with it… But I didn’t know for a fact that people don’t have issues with it…

 

So I just googled the most common Jing depletion symptoms + Wim Hoff…

 

Lower back pain… pain in the knees… tinnitus. All there.

 

And tinnitus is a very common one. There’s many threads on their community forums and Reddit groups with many people complaining they got permanent  tinnitus from the practice.

 

Theres some stuff about back ache and knee pain…  but not as much as I expected - I suppose these are very general issues, so the link between them and the practice wouldn’t be apparent for most people.

 

I’d recommend against cold showers, cold plunges or anything like that unless you know what you’re doing.

 

Its possible to do it without depleting yourself - but certainly not how Hoff teaches it.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Yeah you’re right.

 

I actually think ‘habitual patterns’ is a better way of saying it. It’s not habits like brushing teeth that’s the problem it’s ‘automatic’ behaviour.

 

It’s habitual, compulsive (often unconscious) action that’s a drain on Jing. For instance an extreme example of this is any sort of addiction. Including screen addiction, shopping addiction, gambling, gaming, even reading or exercise can be addictions - any compulsive habit.
 

It also applies to the micro habits that happen from moment to moment. You feel sad - you reach for food... You always try to impress anyone that’s a bit like your dad… you habitually reference your inner monologue… You keep scrolling for stimulation… (You do all sorts of compulsive stuff for mental stimulation! Most people get into cultivation for stimulation! 😄)

 

All the conscious and unconscious behaviours that make you act or react automatically through habit are all using up a little of your Jing… 

 

But this is more subtle stuff.

 

No point trying to work on this when you’re regularly having late nights… compulsive sexual stimulation… drinking… smoking… watching crap on screens all day. Build good habits first - then become an unuabituated, fully alive human later!  

 

Your explanation is so much better than mine  Thank you.

 

On a personal note....Having a SO in a different timezone and adjusting clocks to late nights definately does take its toll...Thankfully its not permanent. I imagine a decade or so of  night shift work could really mess it up

[freeform]

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Having a SO in a different timezone and adjusting clocks to late nights definately does take its toll...

Ah yeah - that’s tough. But some things are worth it

 

Wouldn't worry too much. You should see how much Jing is used for pregnancy and breast feeding! Still a worthwhile sacrifice for most.

[Vajra Fist]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

I was discussing Wim Hoff with someone - saying that everything he’s doing is exceptionally depleting… and that I’m surprised that people don’t have more issues with it… But I didn’t know for a fact that people don’t have issues with it…

 

I practiced it for several years and, while I found the cold showers and baths incredibly invigorating and great for building a quality of mental toughness, I never found them particularly healthful.

 

In the end I quit after I developed a debilitating skin disorder on my hand. I have no proof that it was caused by the cold exposure, but it also disappeared within a few months of quitting.

 

This is an interesting read in that respect:

 

https://anncecilsterman.com/cold-plunge-cold-shower-hot-mess-by-ann-cecil-sterman/

 

The breathing exercises are great for improving the quality of lungs. I think they may have been life-saving at one point for me when I had covid in Feb 2020. My lungs felt like they were closing up, and the breathing exercises felt like the next best thing to a ventilator (at that point there were no official cases in the UK).

 

But at the same time, I've read many, many stories about people who have developed tinnitus from the breath holds. Blacking out is also common.

 

There are also stories about people who have had a stroke after pushing too hard in the breathing exercises. Generally speaking the community reacts incredibly negatively toward anyone who has a bad experience in that respect. 

 

I'm also concerned about trends in the wim hof community toward trying to extend retention times. I remember seeing some scientific studies about damage to the brain from prolonged oxygen starvation among free divers.

 

 

[freeform]

13 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

This is an interesting read in that respect:

 

https://anncecilsterman.com/cold-plunge-cold-shower-hot-mess-by-ann-cecil-sterman/

This is indeed very interesting.

 

Ive found from people I’ve talked to that the invigorating experience along with the feel-good hormones released are so compelling that people will explain away many of the issues caused.

 

16 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Generally speaking the community reacts incredibly negatively toward anyone who has a bad experience in that respect. 

That’s terrible.

[Lairg]

I have become quite wary of the one size fits all approach to human development and health.  

 

For example, before recommending any cold treatments I would be looking at kidney energy levels, heart and blood energies and any emotional grief carried in the lungs.

[Indiken]

Hello,

 

how much Jing is spent living 5 years in Nazi concentration camp ?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Now we are asking the real questions!