Discussion On Immortals

[Iliketurtles]

Strangely this thread has become a discussion on immortals somehow, so I felt it deserved a title change.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Iliketurtles

[manitou]

Maybe start a thread with your questions?  Just about anybody around here would fill the bill (although I'm not sure what you mean by academic capacity).  Are you speaking of the history of Buddhism or Daoism?

[stirling]

Is intellectual understanding of the associated literature what you are looking for, or insight/wisdom understanding what you are looking for? These are not necessarily always present in one individual, and not of the same relevance ultimately.

[manitou]

Actually, I think a thread with either type of question (intellect vs. wisdom) would be a heck of a lot of fun.  And instructive for those of us who don't know much about either.  All I know is that I love the Daodejing.  It changed my life.  It changed me.  Of course I found it at a yard sale - what great things in life aren't found at a yard sale?

 

But the Dao De Jing (or Tao Te Ching, more often seen spelled this way in the West) is not like the Bible or the Upanishads.  It deals in dynamics, foundational dynamics, that are essential to enlightenment.  The wisdom is as deep as it gets, and I've never found this depth in any organized religion.  IMO, the beauty of this forum is that enlightenment is found here through triangulation.  Deep depths of Buddhism and Daoism and metaphysical Christianity, Sikh, Muslim, Hindi - all are certainly found here too, along with those of us who just identify as Metaphysicians.   , But there is something that binds them together - that is the advanced and profound metaphysics that are at the base of both.  And at the base of all.  At this point, some folks move away from anything structured at all - forsaking all paths and embracing who we really are (which won't make sense to you until it does)

[C T]

Comprehensive list of Buddhist teachers and scholars here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/index.html

[Iliketurtles]

On 3/19/2021 at 3:50 PM, manitou said:

Maybe start a thread with your questions?  Just about anybody around here would fill the bill (although I'm not sure what you mean by academic capacity).  Are you speaking of the history of Buddhism or Daoism?

 

Discussions like this always seem to turn into flame wars here. 

 

My hope was to find some academic or someone who has studied either Daoism or Buddhism in a professional manner, rather than via an armchair.  

 

The questions are both philosophical and historical. 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Iliketurtles

[Nintendao]

20 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

My hope was to find some academic or someone who has studied either Daoism or Buddhism in a professional manner, rather than via an armchair. 

 

I once aced a Comparative Religions course at community college. Does that count? 

 

Spoiler

Don't underestimate the armchair..

 

[Zorro Dantes]

20 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

The questions are both philosophical and historical. 

Well, what are they, Mitch McConnell...shoot em from the hip. I don't think We should have to sprinkle some crack on ya to get something juicy in return...that comes later 

[Ursus mellifera]

8 minutes ago, Zorro Dantes said:

Well, what are they, Mitch McConnell...shoot em from the hip. I don't think We should have to sprinkle some crack on ya to get something juicy in return...that comes later 

 

And only the first hit is free?

[Cleansox]

21 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

Discussions like this always seem to turn into flame wars here. 

Just like the academic world then. 

[damdao]

@Iliketurtles you can find top scholars on facebook. You have F. Pregadio and his fb group neidan studies, focused in scholarly research.

There are other too.

[Zorro Dantes]

57 minutes ago, Ursus mellifera said:

And only the first hit is free?

Absolutely, in the absence of leverage. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Zorro Dantes

[stirling]

My recommendations from personal experience.

 

If it's about sutra/sutras you might try Michael Owen:

 

 

Or Buddhism in general, or more specifically Tibetan Buddhism traditions:

 

https://bobthurman.com

 

...or B. Allan Wallace:

 

https://www.alanwallace.org

 

In Zen, I'd point to Norman Fischer:

 

https://www.normanfischer.org

 

-

 

From what I can surmise, there are a number of people here able to answer your non-historical philosophical questions, myself included. Try one.

 

[manitou]

On 3/22/2021 at 12:27 PM, Iliketurtles said:

 

rather than via an armchair.  

 

The questions are both philosophical and historical. 

 

 

 

 

Here's the problem, ILikeTurtles.  Folks on this forum are not armchair philosophers.  They are people who have walked their paths for many years, for the most part.  They are folks who have put countless hours into meditation, the self-discipline of martial arts, or life lessons of an incredible nature.  Please know that there are people here that are the real thing.

 

The problem with philosophy or questions of a philosophical nature, is that they are of the mind.  To one who has not yet self-realized it would appear that the mind is all we have to learn with.  But what many have walked, here, is the inner path of self-realization, whether it's called that or not within Buddhism, Daoism, Christianity, any of the isms.  If there is no awakened self, there is no enlightenment.  This means struggling to know exactly who we are, by questioning our own motives; by tracking our own personality blockages; by removing life conditioning that has accrued since birth.

 

This is a process that takes many years, for the most part.  It's something other than book-learning.  I'm not sure what you're looking for will be found here.  Your interests appear to be of the left brain only.

[Iliketurtles]

14 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Here's the problem, ILikeTurtles.  Folks on this forum are not armchair philosophers.  They are people who have walked their paths for many years, for the most part.  They are folks who have put countless hours into meditation, the self-discipline of martial arts, or life lessons of an incredible nature.  Please know that there are people here that are the real thing.

 

The problem with philosophy or questions of a philosophical nature, is that they are of the mind.  To one who has not yet self-realized it would appear that the mind is all we have to learn with.  But what many have walked, here, is the inner path of self-realization, whether it's called that or not within Buddhism, Daoism, Christianity, any of the isms.  If there is no awakened self, there is no enlightenment.  This means struggling to know exactly who we are, by questioning our own motives; by tracking our own personality blockages; by removing life conditioning that has accrued since birth.

 

This is a process that takes many years, for the most part.  It's something other than book-learning.  I'm not sure what you're looking for will be found here.  Your interests appear to be of the left brain only.

 

I am sure that there are some serious people exactly as you describe here.

 

I am not talking about this forum, but my experience in other spiritual forums have led me to believe that such matters are best discussed in private to prevent conflict. 

 

It has been my experience that serious seekers usually remain silent and lurk to avoid conflict with the most egoic and vocal members of the community that want to control the narrative on every topic. 

 

It has also been my experience in other forums (not this one), that for every serious spiritual seeker as you describe there are one hundred people who are not qualified to have an opinion on the matter.  

 

The people not qualified to have an opinion usually are the loudest, and most aggressive.  

 

I certainly appreciate that you have a different perspective on this matter.

 

 I respect that your experience differs from mine and you have reached different conclusions than I have as a result of that. 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Iliketurtles

[Apech]

On 3/13/2021 at 10:00 PM, Iliketurtles said:

Hello, 

 

I am looking for individuals who have studied Buddhism, and or Daoism in an academic capacity, to ask some questions for a research project.

 

If you know someone who fits that bill please let me know. 

 

I sincerely appreciate it.

 

 

 

Do you mean people who have some kind of qualification from a University or do you mean people who have undertaken a serious study of the subject(s).?

[Iliketurtles]

Just now, Apech said:

 

Do you mean people who have some kind of qualification from a University or do you mean people who have undertaken a serious study of the subject(s).?

 

I would prefer to speak with people who who have a degree in eastern religions or some similar qualification. 

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

I would prefer to speak with people who who have a degree in eastern religions or some similar qualification. 

 

I'm not aware of anyone on here who has that - and I've been around for a long time - you might be better trying dharmawheel (assuming it still exists) e.g. 'Malcolm' on there is a loppon ...  etc.

 

 

[RobB]

Write to your local University? Or even a non-local one - many researchers are OK with unsolicited contact even if they can't always devote a huge amount of time. Really helps if you do your research and find someone who is already working in the same specific area that you are interested in.

[Geof Nanto]

10 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

I am sure that there are some serious people exactly as you describe here.

 

I am not talking about this forum, but my experience in other spiritual forums have led me to believe that such matters are best discussed in private to prevent conflict. 

 

It has been my experience that serious seekers usually remain silent and lurk to avoid conflict with the most egoic and vocal members of the community that want to control the narrative on every topic. 

 

It has also been my experience in other forums (not this one), that for every serious spiritual seeker as you describe there are one hundred people who are not qualified to have an opinion on the matter.  

 

The people not qualified to have an opinion usually are the loudest, and most aggressive.  

 

I certainly appreciate that you have a different perspective on this matter.

 

 I respect that your experience differs from mine and you have reached different conclusions than I have as a result of that. 

 

 

 

Valid observations but I think you’ll also find that dynamic exists in academia as well, albeit in a more controlled way. It’s a mistake to think the grass is necessarily greener elsewhere.  Manitou makes some valid observations too. Why not look a bit deeper here? There are many voices on this forum. If you spend some time readings posts and researching historical discussions relevant to your interest, I think you’ll find people who have wisdom in the areas you’re wanting for your research questions. 

 

My suggestion is that you PM Apech and ask him if he’d be willing to help you. He is a long-term Buddhist practitioner with an excellent theoretical understanding and he also has a good historical overview of the subject.  In that regard he’s not alone here, but he also excels in his ability to concisely communicate this stuff. And, although he’s very clear on his own well researched understandings, he doesn’t try to dominate discussions.    
 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Yueya

[Cleansox]

16 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

I would prefer to speak with people who who have a degree in eastern religions or some similar qualification. 

Then why pop the question on a forum like this, when an hour of Google fu centered on major universities would give you these names, and the research areas they have delved in?

 

Google Project Muse, there you will find journals where many of the major players publish their stuff. Expensive, but priceless when you hit the right article. 

 

On the other hand, if you write about your questions and specifically ask for academic references, you might get what you want. Quite a few persons here actually read books. 

 

Spending some time here formulating your questions and doing some litterature studies before asking those scholars would also be a way of showing respect. 

A world class academic rarely think that answering a question one could find out for one self is time well spent. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Cleansox
Added stuff

[Iliketurtles]

6 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Then why pop the question on a forum like this, when an hour of Google fu centered on major universities would give you these names, and the research areas they have delved in?

 

Google Project Muse, there you will find journals where many of the major players publish their stuff. Expensive, but priceless when you hit the right article. 

 

On the other hand, if you write about your questions and specifically ask for academic references, you might get what you want. Quite a few persons here actually read books. 

 

Spending some time here formulating your questions and doing some litterature studies before asking those scholars would also be a way of showing respect. 

A world class academic rarely think that answering a question one could find out for one self is time well spent. 

 

I've already emailed countless academics and done all I can do with google.

 

As it has already turned into arguments in private, I think public discussion is best avoided for this reason. 

 

[Iliketurtles]

12 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

Valid observations but I think you’ll also find that dynamic exists in academia as well, albeit in a more controlled way. It’s a mistake to think the grass is necessarily greener elsewhere.  Manitou makes some valid observations too. Why not look a bit deeper here? There are many voices on this forum. If you spend some time readings posts and researching historical discussions relevant to your interest, I think you’ll find people who have wisdom in the areas you’re wanting for your research questions. 

 

My suggestion is that you PM Apech and ask him if he’d be willing to help you. He is a long-term Buddhist practitioner with an excellent theoretical understanding and he also has a good historical overview of the subject.  In that regard he’s not alone here, but he also excels in his ability to concisely communicate this stuff. And, although he’s very clear on his own well researched understandings, he doesn’t try to dominate discussions.    
 

 

Thank you, I will message him. 

[Iliketurtles]

Bump.

[Zorro Dantes]

Shoot'em from the hip then, we'll oblige.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Zorro Dantes